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[Cat Fancy]

This sub-forum deserves a thread dedicated to Thedosian sectarianism. I am providing that thread.

 

What are the best and worst religions and sects in all of Thedas? Rank them. Justify your rankings, or do not. We're talking about faith here; it's unreasonable to ask for justification here. Whatever. Follow your heart.

 

"But I'm not religious! None of my PCs are even religious!" Sure, whatever. That doesn't mean you can't be sectarian AF. Trust me, you still can (and should) be sectarian. Here are the sects:

 

1) The OG Andrastian Chantry - The religion of choice for most human Thedosians. The early Chantry was a force for ending slavery and the tyranny of mages gone mad. But what is it today but a corrupt and crumbling analogue for medieval Catholicism? It's adaptable and each country has its own unique practices, but all look to the Papess in Val-Royeaux for guidance. Fereldens still practice Andrastianism with hints of Almarri animism. The Rivaini Andrastians are a minority, mage-friendly, and unorthodox. They probably don't even have to believe in the Maker. Weak.

 

2) Imperial Chantry -  A bulwark of Andrastendom protecting Thedas from the Makerless infidels in the Soviet Qunion.* Maligned because of the Tevinter Empire's slavery and comfort with magic, including blood magic. Slavery is an intolerable offense against the Maker-given rights of man and elf, but perhaps there's something to defend in this Church, and this Empire. It can and must be reformed. Can the same be said of its enemy, the true enemy of all Andrastians?

 

3) The Par Vollen Qunari, or "Qunari Qunari" - Are you an unreconstructed Maoist or Stalinist? You may find something to like here. Defenders will say that they're the only force in Thedas pushing for a secular form of government, and they're "anti-imperialist," as well. "Whatever," others will say.

 

4) Rivaini Qunari - Probably pretty chill, I guess. And doomed! The Qunari proper don't like them any more than they like anyone else not under their complete control. Heretics are always more offensive than infidels, after all. The Rivainis in turn accuse the Qunari of being "state capitalists." "Whatever," others will say.

 

5) Rivaini Pantheism - Hedge witches and communitarianism. Are Rivaini traditionalists strong enough to survive the competition between the Chantry and the Qunari? They have so far.

 

6) Almarri Animism - We don't know much about this. These animists aren't as hostile to mages as the Chantry and are more comfortable with Spirits than the Dalish. Perhaps they, too, have what it takes to keep their faith strong in these troubled times.

 

7) Dalish Pantheism - This religion has a long and venerable history. But is it too cautious and conservative? They don't even **** with spirits. The Orlesian Chantry ****s with spirits! How well has the received wisdom of their ancestors served the Dalish? This religion needs reform and innovation which it seems incapable of nurturing. The Dalish are fools to shun promising young pre-abominations like Merrill.

 

8) Dwarven Stone Worship or Whatever - I don't know. Who cares? The caste system holds the dwarves back and provides an opening for other religions to attract the casteless. If dwarves have to spend their lives underground, how will they ever reach the stars?~~~

 

Do you think my assessments were unfair? They are. I am very sectarian and I will likely die before I read  a Dragon Age novel or even one single codex entry. Provide your own assessments of the religions! And then rank them. Here are my rankings:

 

2, 1, 6, 5, 7, 8, 3, 4

 

Do you think sectarianism will play an important role in Dragon Age Inquisition? I hope it does; I love sectarianism in all its forms. Will Dorian appeal make an appeal for pan-Andrastian solidarity? Will we see the Andrastian equivalent of Protestantism pop up and start to make trouble (Red Templars?)? Does that already exist and I just never read about it because life's too short? Will we ever meet the Qunari from their old homeland, perhaps with a different interpretation of their religion?  Will the spread of the Qun among alienage elves cause further unrest? Same with the Chant among casteless dwarves? (does Brother Burkel in Orzammar have anything to say about castes? don't really remember) Will the nobility accuse religious minorities and their defenders of being pseudo-secular? If this story has anything useful to say about the real world, the answers to all those questions must be "yes."

 

Anyway, once again and in conclusion, please use this thread to engage in and speculate about sectarianism in Thedas.

 

* "Why should queues become a permanent, continuous feature of our life? Here we see clearly what is in their minds. The Qunari dream is no longer of Quntopia, but Queuentopia."

                      -Winston Chantryll

[General TSAR]

If you had a ruthless personality and sided with Petrice, she alluded to a possible schism within the White Chantry. 

 

[Kimarous]

Isn't the Qun more of a way of life than a religion? Last I checked, the Qunari don't care who you believe in so long as you don't let it interfere with your station in life.

 

Taking that out the equation (which is a good thing, since I don't hold the Qun in high regard), I'm not quite sure how to approach this. I don't really "rank" religious sects, fictitious or otherwise. Still, might as well give a few general thoughts.

 

From an in-character perspective, my Warden holds to Leliana's view of the Maker - that the official Chantry is wrong and that he wasn't so cruel as to outright abandon the people of Thedas, and that he simply is the hands-off type. He isn't even sure that the Golden City was ever golden to begin with. Not sure what you'd call this... heresy, maybe? "I think you have a solid foundation, but the specifics are way off. Also, how can you cut out canticles you don't like *cough*Shartan*cough* when, by your own accounting, the Chant must be sung in its entirety to bring back the Maker's attention?"

 

He has some respect for the Dwarven belief in the Stone, at least as far as opting to not establish a Chantry in Orzammar. His own irks with the official Chantry, aside, he also thought that introducing a foreign religion during a time of social and political upheaval was a bad idea - he immediately had distaste for the caste divisions, and the very first thing he heard about Bhelen was the uplifting of the casteless, so guess who he sides with.

 

Finds the Dalish religion rather dubious - sounds more like "powerful spirits you thought were gods, and you've lost contact with them" than anything truly divine. As for the rest of the religions, my Warden doesn't even account for them since he probably isn't worldly enough to even know they exist.

[Eveangaline]

They're all fine as long as they aren't forcing people to convert or forcing their religions rules into law. If they do that, **** 'em.

Aside from that I can't really rank religions except by which ones have the coolest/best written stories, and I'd need way more info to decide that.

[Schreckstoff]

I don't really care for any but the Qun, the Qun goes completely against humanoid nature and just has to fail or be abolished

[LobselVith8]

Dalish Pantheism - This religion has a long and venerable history. But is it too cautious and conservative? They don't even **** with spirits. The Orlesian Chantry ****s with spirits! How well has the received wisdom of their ancestors served the Dalish? This religion needs reform and innovation which it seems incapable of nurturing. The Dalish are fools to shun promising young pre-abominations like Merrill.

 

Spirit Healers dealing with spirits can also be dangerous (to the point of so-called "demons" tricking Circle mages into thinking they are dealing with "spirits", to use Andrastian terminology), so I don't think the Chantry controlled Circles are the best example. Honestly, I don't think it's foolish for the Dalish to view all spirits as dangerous. Even a spirit with good intentions can become dangerous; Justice will try to kill The Warden if he can't be persuaded to accept the alliance with the Architect, and Ella faces danger when Justice becomes confused.

 

I also don't see the elven pantheon prohibiting reform or innovation - the Dalish currently live a nomadic lifestyle because their religion and culture has been criminalized, so their way of life doesn't tend to lead to much more than survival, since the clans travel in lands that are predominantly under the control of Andrastian forces that view them all as outlaws. It's hardly any better for the poor elves who live under human rule in dilapidated sectors of the city - also known as Alienages.

 

Do you think sectarianism will play an important role in Dragon Age Inquisition? I hope it does; I love sectarianism in all its forms. Will Dorian appeal make an appeal for pan-Andrastian solidarity? Will we see the Andrastian equivalent of Protestantism pop up and start to make trouble (Red Templars?)? Does that already exist and I just never read about it because life's too short? Will we ever meet the Qunari from their old homeland, perhaps with a different interpretation of their religion?  Will the spread of the Qun among alienage elves cause further unrest? Same with the Chant among casteless dwarves? (does Brother Burkel in Orzammar have anything to say about castes? don't really remember) Will the nobility accuse religious minorities and their defenders of being pseudo-secular? If this story has anything useful to say about the real world, the answers to all those questions must be "yes."

 

Individual canon runs will cause some of these scenarios to vary, of course. My Surana Warden was an atheist, but he never helped Brother Burkel because he knew what the Chantry of Andraste was like, so in my run, the Chantry doesn't get a foothold in Orzammar. I've heard some speculate that Ferelden might go the Church of England route, due to the growing schism with Orlais.

 

With the implication that there will be religious significance applied toward the protagonist, I'm curious how a "heathen" will be treated. A Vashoth may be atheist, a Dwarf may follow the Ancestors, and a Dalish elf may adhere to the faith of the Creators. How will the Andrastians react? How will the Qunari respond to a Vashoth building a center of military and political power? Might some surface dwarves flock to one of their own gaining influence and strength on the surface? Will elves now abandon the Andrastian faith if a Dalish elf is gaining the kind of power that's only been reserved for humans for centuries, especially as the sole survivor at a holy site?

[godModeAlpha]

My PC's in previous DA games have been a crusader for Andraste, thus I'll rate anything chantry above everything else.

Can't stand the Qun because I believe it's an extreme sort of occultism, and given a chance I'lll start a crusade against those cultist bully's.

I don't know the other religions.

Thus, 1,2. Nothing after.

[The Ascendant]

The Chantry is the dominant religion but unless it undergoes serious reform, I forsee more people going to the Qun. Dwarven and Elven religions are in the minority. The Chantry is the top dog for now, but will they last? They've lost control over the mages and the Templars and their base of operations, Orlais is in civil war. The Qun is looking very tempting now.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

How can Rivaini Chantry members not believe in the Maker and still be Andrastian?

 

The Chantry is the dominant religion but unless it undergoes serious reform, I forsee more people going to the Qun. Dwarven and Elven religions are in the minority. The Chantry is the top dog for now, but will they last? They've lost control over the mages and the Templars and their base of operations, Orlais is in civil war. The Qun is looking very tempting now.

 

Why? To most Thedosians they are sinister heathens and the Qun is every bit more authoritarian than the laws the few Chantry does enforce on it's nations.

 

The reason the Dalish are more "conservative" than the Circles is because unlike Andrastians they tend not to apply a sense of morality to spirits and demons. Obviously they both realize that demons are dangerous, but a Circle Mage sees a demon and also thinks it's evil. A Dalish Mage sees it more like a wild animal that is only following it's instincts. And then applies that same logic to spirits as well, just like how wild herbivores in real life can still be dangerous. A Circle Mage might see a spirit and conclude, "Well he's a good guy! Lets hang out with him,"

[TheKomandorShepard]

Why? To most Thedosians they are sinister heathens and the Qun is every bit more authoritarian than the laws the few Chantry does enforce on it's nations.
 

Well becuase for most peoples in Thedas life well sucks? To be honest qunari are as far only one who offer protection and equality for every their member (not counting mages) and because of that many peoples started join qun in kirkwall even if they didn't start convert peoples or sprad qun they were only there for book. In fact poor , elves and even middle class that/if isn't treated well in societes like orlais would find qun not so bad.In the end qun isn't prefect but for many peoples it would be better alternative for example tevinter slaves or elves. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The lowest classes in Thedas have a tendency to flock (at least in part) to the Qun, but most of Thedosian society?

[Mistic]

I think I missed something. Since when is there a difference between the Rivaini Qunari and the Qunari in general?

[TheKomandorShepard]

The lowest classes in Thedas have a tendency to flock (at least in part) to the Qun, but most of Thedosian society?

Well as i said i can see individuals from lowest class to middle class joining qun as for them life in thedas sucks in most places.Well perhaps not counting ferelden (but still still numbers of disasters that country have to face is huge).Of course doesn't mean that every poor or elf will join them some peoples price freedom above anything else.I can see very little nobles joining qun as that would mean resignation for comforts and riches and most of them is just lazy a**** something that qunari hate as we see in kirkwall.Mages who would want join qun would have to be dumb or have some serious issues.

 

Perhaps not most but a lot could join qun just for better life standards.
 
  

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well as i said i can see individuals from lowest class to middle class joining qun as for them life in thedas sucks in most places.Well perhaps not counting ferelden (but still still numbers of disasters that country have to face is huge).Of course doesn't mean that every poor or elf will join them some peoples price freedom above anything else.I can see very little nobles joining qun as that would mean resignation for comforts and riches and most of them is just lazy a**** something that qunari hate as we see in kirkwall.Mages who would want join qun would have to be dumb or have some serious issues.

 

Perhaps not most but a lot could join qun just for better life standards.
 
  

 

The thing is, during the Qunari incident at Kirkwall, there were many elves that joined them but none of the poor humans from lowtown did. And even amongst the alienage there was severe anti-Qunari backlash. It seems unlikely to me that anyone but mostly the very bottom of the rungs of Thedosian society would willing join them.

 

I think I missed something. Since when is there a difference between the Rivaini Qunari and the Qunari in general?

 

The Qunari in Rivain don't technically qualify as Qunari in the eyes of the giants of Par Vollen. Thy don't live under the authority of the Qunari Triumvirate, they are still citizens of the Kingdom of Rivain and they do things a little differently than the regular Qunari do. Most notably they still have Seers as their leaders, who are mages.

[Mistic]

The Qunari in Rivain don't technically qualify as Qunari in the eyes of the giants of Par Vollen. Thy don't live under the authority of the Qunari Triumvirate, they are still citizens of the Kingdom of Rivain and they do things a little differently than the regular Qunari do. Most notably they still have Seers as their leaders, who are mages.

 

I really must have missed something, because I can't find the source for that. I'm reading the Rivain article in WoT again but I just can't find that. It talks about the Qunari in Kont-arr, the pagan Seers and the Chantry elites in the capital, Dairsmuid, but nothing else. Could you provide me with a link or a source, please?

[Cat Fancy]

 Will elves now abandon the Andrastian faith if a Dalish elf is gaining the kind of power that's only been reserved for humans for centuries, especially as the sole survivor at a holy site?

Interesting idea, but I'd think not. Andrastianism still their religion and has a narrative about liberation (notably elven) woven into it. I'm reminded of the Rastafari, who revere an Ethopian emperor. Some key differences: both the Rastafari Movement and Ethiopian Orthodox Christians are Christian, while the alienage elves are Andriastians and the Dalish are polytheists. Would the alienage elves abandon Andrastianism for something so different? On the other hand, the Dalish have long considered themselves the standard bearers of the elven diaspora (World Elfry?). I'm not sure if Ethiopians felt the same way about the African diaspora generally, or the Rastafari in particular. 

 

I could certainly see an elf-centric sect of Andrastianism popping up, especially if the Chantry splinters more.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I really must have missed something, because I can't find the source for that. I'm reading the Rivain article in WoT again but I just can't find that. It talks about the Qunari in Kont-arr, the pagan Seers and the Chantry elites in the capital, Dairsmuid, but nothing else. Could you provide me with a link or a source, please?

 

World of Thedas mentions that in Rivain "the influence of the Qun, of not absolute adherence to it's teachings, is present throughout Rivain." The Dragon Age 2 codexes about Qunari also mention Seers in Rivaini Qunari lands.

 

For whatever it's worth, I'm pretty sure the devs also mentioned something to the extent of the Ariqun in Par Vollen considering the Rivaini Basalit'an instread of Qunari, but I probably wouldn't be able to find it.

[Cat Fancy]

I think I missed something. Since when is there a difference between the Rivaini Qunari and the Qunari in general?

Perhaps not, but if I don't have an opportunity to make a joke about libertarian communists, I will create one. (I did think they were considered slightly suspect by the Qunari proper, though.)

 

(it looks like Jedi Master of Orion agrees though, so I might not have invented this. might.)

[Cat Fancy]

How can Rivaini Chantry members not believe in the Maker and still be Andrastian?

Joke. I just got the impression that they were the "spiritual, but not religious" types and basically fantasy Episcopalians. (I'm not saying Episcopalians can't be hardcore. I am saying that fantasy Episcopalians definitely can't)

[LobselVith8]

Interesting idea, but I'd think not. Andrastianism still their religion and has a narrative about liberation (notably elven) woven into it. I'm reminded of the Rastafari, who revere an Ethopian emperor. Some key differences: both the Rastafari Movement and Ethiopian Orthodox Christians are Christian, while the alienage elves are Andriastians and the Dalish are polytheists. Would the alienage elves abandon Andrastianism for something so different? On the other hand, the Dalish have long considered themselves the standard bearers of the elven diaspora (World Elfry?). I'm not sure if Ethiopians felt the same way about the African diaspora generally, or the Rastafari in particular. 

 

I could certainly see an elf-centric sect of Andrastianism popping up, especially if the Chantry splinters more.

 

Some of the Kirkwall elves abandoned Andrastianism for the Qun (which is why some of the Andrastian elves sided with Petrice), so I don't think it's implausible, especially if a better alternative is provided with an elven "heathen" protagonist.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I'm confused, what is the point of this thread?

[Kreator_Wrex]

This is what I'd say about the one's I'm familiar with:

 

1. The OG Andrastian Chantry: This chantry might be the primary choice for human Theodosians, but I find it to be somewhat xenophobic. The idea that non-humans need saving and that they've "turned from the Maker's grace even more than humanity has", is really kind of bigoted, and honestly, a bit ridiculous. Yes, there are no Andrastian Qunari, the dwarves venerate the stone, and many elves still follow the elven pantheon but the fact that the Andrastian chantry has no male priests is a bit laughable and can just as easily be something throw back at this chantry. This kind of attitude was a factor in causing the crusades, and it actually did here with the Exalted Marches. I'm no supporter of religious collectivism and any other kind of fascist authoritarian philosophy, this chantry seems to be just that and so I find it to be quite flawed.
2. Imperal Chantry: This chantry is really almost the same as the Andrastian chantry only they believe Andraste was not divine. This chantry is more tolerant of mages and magic and even allows male priests, hell the Imperial Divine is one of Enchanters of the Minrathous circle. But this whole debate over the interpretation of "magic exists to serve man, and never rule him" debate is really the main flaw I see in this chantry. The idea that this is being interpreted as "let's start a huge oppressive tyrannical magocracy" when it is quite clearly stated "and never rule him" merely makes me think these idiots are just full of crap.
3. Par Vollen Qunari: From an egalitarian perspective, this seems the best choice, but I don't see it without it's flaws, because to me, there are quite a lot of them is this screwed up religion, so this section may get a bit lengthly. The fact they decry as non-imperialists while at the same time establishing a society based on military might, just leads me to think that this is just big flock of hypocrites. The Qunari views on gender to me is the most laughable and screwed up system that I can even imagine. The fact that they believe that both genders are inherently better at certain tasks, is not completely untrue, but the fact is, they interpret this way to seriously. This ideal that no matter how much aptitude a man shows for management, he will never be as good at is as a female and vice versa if you use a different example just cracks me up to no ends. Of course by chance there are certain tasks that would be better suited for certain genders, but that doesn't mean there will be certain outliers among both genders, there will always be males who show talent in priesthood, management,child care, and education and like wise there will be certain females who show more talent in smithing, hard-labor, and combat, to assign people roles based completely off of gender in certain areas seems much like wasting resources, which is quite hypocritical considering the Qunari are all about not wasting resources and people unnecessarily. To say this, which is flawed to begin with and then at the same time say that Tal-Vashoth hunting assassins act on behalf of the Tamassran and are therefore still female is just laughable. "You can't be a soldier because you are female, but you can be an assassin because you're female," this logic is just hilarious. Soldiers kill people, assassins kill people, the only difference is assassins kill people in more subtle and stealthy ways, but a soldier can do the same things too, therefore soldiers and assassins can really with debate, be considered the same thing.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Some of the Kirkwall elves abandoned Andrastianism for the Qun (which is why some of the Andrastian elves sided with Petrice), so I don't think it's implausible, especially if a better alternative is provided with an elven "heathen" protagonist.

 

A few might, but City Elves aren't just going to abandon their religion en masse. And that's if the Inquisitor is even going to offer anything like what the Qunari were offering them. The Qunari promise to radically alter their lives overnight. We don't even know for sure if the Inquisition is going to be able to improve the lot of the City Elves, and even if it can I expect it would be doubtful they could change things in such a hugely dramatic way as the Arishok tried to.

 

And despite all that the Qunari still were hated enough by some of the City Elves for making other City Elves abandon their culture that they were willing to steal the Gaatlock and blow people up just to make everyone hate the Qunari as much as they did.

[LobselVith8]

A few might, but City Elves aren't just going to abandon their religion en masse. And that's if the Inquisitor is even going to offer anything like what the Qunari were offering them. The Qunari promise to radically alter their lives overnight. We don't even know for sure if the Inquisition is going to be able to improve the lot of the City Elves, and even if it can I expect it would be doubtful they could change things in such a hugely dramatic way as the Arishok tried to.

 

It was part of my earlier paragraph that was throwing out possibilities as to how different groups might react to one of their own being the Inquisitor, given the implication of religious significance being given to the main character surviving a cataclysm at a holy site. It wasn't meant to imply that all elves would behave this way.

 

And despite all that the Qunari still were hated enough by some of the City Elves for making other City Elves abandon their culture that they were willing to steal the Gaatlock and blow people up just to make everyone hate the Qunari as much as they did.

 

Which I pointed out earlier in addressing that some Andrastian elves sided with Petrice in reaction to some elves converting to the Qun.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Was Petrice involved in the elven fanatic's plans? I don't remember her being mentioned.