49 réponses à ce sujet

[SwobyJ]

Hawke saved Flemeth, yes. But only to a degree. If you ignored her in DA1, then she just took a precaution, but was ultimately gonna be okay. If you 'killed' her in DA2, then she took a necessary precaution. It is also more dramaticcc, imo. Best to do all content in Bioware games for full dramatic effect.

[KaiserShep]

Avoiding the Crow and Dark Wolf quests? Madness. Regardless of class, I always do those, because all conspirators must die.

[KaiserShep]

Yeah, but the Crow and Dark Wolf quests don't really involve anything like that. Heck neither are even very meaningful for stealthy characters, especially the latter, since you're basically meeting a few warriors and archers out on an open field. Plus, they're Howe's insidious vassals. It's like they want to die.

[SwobyJ]

Full dramatic effect. Nah. It just feels like a romance plot, grafted on to others who aren't even invested in Morrigan.

 

To me, it's no different than avoiding the Crow or Dark Wolf quests on my non-Rogue characters.

 

Besides all that, I LIKE Flemeth. Why kill her? She's undoubtedly the coolest character in the series to me.

 

Full dramatic effect does not = full dramatic effect for you, personally.

 

A film could be tailored for full dramatic effect for a large audience, but make me yawn.

 

If it isn't for you, it isn't for you (and that's of course entirely fine). I'm only saying that a whole 'Flemeth was killed and then came back' thing was meant for that scene because Bioware assumed more vet players would have done Morrigan's sidequest. Because they like Morrigan.

 

Bioware has the 'story that everyone would have experienced if this wasn't a choice-based RPG', and then branches off from that. They made a consequence for you not doing the sidequest, sure, but the scene in DA2 itself was clearly MADE, in itself, because they wanted those other many players to go "Wow, I killed her but she came back!"

 

You know. Dramatic effect!

 

***ME3 Spoilers ahead***

 

 

Another example - I may not give much of a damn about Liara overall, but I do realize that her being the Shadow Broker and feeling helpless about her role during a Reaper War where info is at her fingertips, yet isn't enough to stop Thessia from being wrecked... this whole concept has more dramatic effect if one played the Shadow Broker DLC and decided to be closer to her/have their Shepard be closer to her during that. If you didn't do the DLC (aka sidequest), then you're (you = generally speaking) more likely as a player to go 'heh, okay, sad'. But if you did, you're more likely as a player to go 'damn... she really does feel lost, poor woman'.

 

Same with this bit in another way. Being especially a new player in DA2 and seeing Flemeth appear (having not 'died') isn't much of a big deal other than being a neat scene. But to those who went out to play Origins and Morrgan's quest, I know that many were shocked.

 

This in itself isn't about Morrigan - being close to her is kinda a requirement, but not important here - it is about Flemeth's place in the storytelling.

 

 

You can't easily make great content for every outcome, but you can guide players in certain directions while maintaining smaller outcomes adjusted to their choices.

 

Same happens in DMing itself. You can predict for so many other player choices, but obviously your story and the degree of the coolness of it will depend on CERTAIN ones being picked. That doesn't mean you resent players for not going in certain routes (in this case being close to Morrigan), but it does mean that some events are more contrived appearing than they would have felt otherwise. Dramatic effect is there for a story to feel organic, and lacking it can weaken the story integrity (even if very slightly). "Oh, Flemeth just moreorless teleported. I guess they needed a way for her to get in the game and didn't want totally separate scenes for it."

[SwobyJ]

More like, they were out of time to import more nuances with the Flemeth choices. So they picked a one sized fits all type of scenario in DA2. I wouldn't read anymore into than that. DA2 was a on tight schedule.

 

'Dramatic effect' is reading too much into it? It's a very simple concept that Bioware often uses for choice consequence permutations. Even in DA:O. Events are clearly designed so that some outcomes are more 'dramatically fitting' and some are more 'peripheral but acceptable' and some are more 'outliers', with all of them technically working.

 

This isn't something new to DA2 - not in the least.

[caradoc2000]

Besides all that, I LIKE Flemeth. Why kill her? She's undoubtedly the coolest character in the series to me.

Not to mention it is a terrible way to repay her for saving your (and Alistair's) life.

[SwobyJ]

You're basically trying to say there's a canon or preferred outcome, if you read in between the lines enough. That one story has the best "beats", so to speak.

No I'm not. In many situations, multiple options work just as well. But in all of the RP, there's options that are more just there to be there. I can choose to, I dunno, kill Wynne but it isn't like Bioware is going to care to address consequences of that much with me, if at all. If they choose to, maybe..fine, but until then, it isn't something that they'd want to reflect in the narrative.

Flemeth here is just a softer form of this. Would Bioware's writers prefer if you did the sidequest? Sure. The 'coolness' of the scene might depend on that somewhat. But they know many didn't and won't do the sidequest, and are okay with that.
 

I think they're just trying to combine a lot of plot elements into Flemeth's appearance in DA2. One size fits all, like I said. The drama is just that she's back, period. And more badass than ever. Not necessarily that she's alive for people who killed her. The real drama is that she's more powerful than she ever let on before, no matter who you were or what you did with her.
 
There already is a default btw, but even then, I'm not sure what the Flemeth choice was. Their default/"canon" rejected the ritual though and lost Morrigan from the group. It was a female Dalish, from the same clan Merathari is from. She had no stake in Morrigan's games.

Of course the drama is that she's back and more badass. That's why they're not having totally alternate scenes .

There being drama isn't the same as discussing the *level* of dramatic effect. Having killed her dragon gives MORE dramatic effect overall for more players. That's all. They see that she's not just back and powerful, but that she came back from being killed as a dragonwtf.

Don't misconstrue any of my posts here as me saying that there's an actual clear canon. There isn't. Mass Effect may have 'more of' a canon than Dragon Age even, but even *it* has no real canon, but again just trends that the story follows and branches off from. And Dragon Age is much more vague about most of this stuff than ME is. (Obviously some stuff is pushed through, like Leliana being a character that exists and doesn't stay dead)

Bioware writers have admitted this themselves. They write a scene, then decide the choices and outcomes and connections. That scene, given the more linear nature of conceiving stories, is generally going to more naturally follow a certain 'line'. You always got to do X, so a future major scene is probably going to assume X was done in the Y way that the writers imagined it to, before adding variety. To designers, the sidequest always existed in the game, whether you did it or not.


TLDR; No, the sidequest isn't 'canon'. But stuff like the sidequest was used in a way that increases dramatic *effect*. The drama still exists. It doesn't require the sidequest. But for more players, it is more likely that they'd be affected more if they did the DAO sidequest. That isn't about 'canon' or 'story beats' (which if they exist, happen regardless). It is about the degree to which things are felt by the players and explored by the writers.
One can skip a lot of things in Bioware games and still get wrapped into what's going on. But hell yes if you do certain things you'll feel more emotionally invested. More dramatic effect.

[SwobyJ]

I recognize the story segment you're trying to point out. I just refuse to acknowledge it as any more important or dramatic than others. You'll never get me to say it. Because I ****** hate it.

Silly goose.

[KC_Prototype]

Goddamnit Hawke.

 

He revives Flemeth and lets Corypheus walk out.

 

He doesn't notice Anders is nuts and lets him start World War Mage.

 

He's a goddamn tool.

Yeah, but he did do a lot of great things.

[dekarserverbot]

The amulet didn't make two Flemeth's, she gets teleported if Warden didn't kill Flemeth, or Flemeth is restored/revived if she was killed. It was a favor for rescuing Hawke. Hawke didn't know Cory can transfer life like Archdemon's can. Its not knowledgeable outside of the Warden's circle. The wardens probably have no clue themselves.

this sounds like a plothole to me (and they are bazillions from where this one came). So the amulet is either reality bending it's properties or the Warden's classical "stab with sword/dagger then chop head with an axe" technique against every dragon he encountered didn't work with a half qunari half chansid shapeshifter. Otherwise, Hawke using the amulet which "teleports" Flemmeth will teleport a heavy dead highdragon and crush the poor useless human whose gender i can't remember plus company instead of the now Qunari witch of the wilds.

If we go with the first one it makes sense except that the amulet is unliving and only the maker could craft something like that... oh and it inherits "the maker" properties of Ostagar arquitecture that lets warden and Alistair stay in an eternal battle against the bidimensional darkspawn horde.

If we point to the second one is the only reason why the teleporter worked on the now qunari Flemmeth since she just feinged death until warden get out because the technique that works with dragons, works with qunaris and DEFINETLY works with humans doesn't work specifically with a Chansid/Qunari shapeshifter old woman.

[Beerfish]

Well Flemeth was right about my Hawke, I tried to sell that amulet to a merchant for 3 silvers.

[KaiserShep]

Well Flemeth was right about my Hawke, I tried to sell that amulet to a merchant for 3 silvers.

 

You can actually do this? Is it any merchant or just one specifically?

[Sifr]

Hawke delivers that amulet to Sundermount, where Flemeth shows up.

 

Was that Flemeth's method of escaping death at the hands of the Warden?

 

What was up with that, exactly?

 

I don't understand the necessity of having Hawke do that ritual when she can simply fly.

 

Hawke and Flemeth address it in dialogue. She needed Hawke to smuggle her out of Ferelden under the radar, so she could continue her plans without interference, while everyone thought she was "dead", either from the Warden killing her at Morrigan's request (or lying to Morrigan and claiming that they had).

 

If she had simply flown to Sundermount as a Dragon it would have attracted too much attention, negating the entire point of using Hawke to get her into the Free Marches without anyone the wiser.

 

Goddamnit Hawke.

 

He revives Flemeth and lets Corypheus walk out.

 

He doesn't notice Anders is nuts and lets him start World War Mage.

 

He's a goddamn tool.

 

Numerous times in dialogue Hawke is implied to know very little of Flemeth, aside from that she's a very powerful, very dangerous apostate, and is told several times that you don't want to cross her. I suspect that Hawke owed her a debt and she did save his/her family, they decided to do as she asked.

 

(Why Hawke doesn't know about Flemeth despite living relatively near the Korcari Wilds, I reckon that Malcolm deliberately never told his kids the legend, fearing that they would venture into the forest deliberately to find the scary Witch that lives there. Be honest, who doesn't see Hawke and (especially) Carver doing that?).

 

With Corypheus, no-one present knew about the ability to soul jump, which was supposed to be unique to the Archdemon anyway. Besides, Anders and Carver/Bethany were too green to know and Janeka/Larius weren't going to tell non-Wardens one of the biggest secrets they have, so how was anyone supposed to know that it was even possible?

 

(The personality change similar can be justified as Janeka was already a piece of work so it wasn't that out of character for her to suddenly start acting suspicious. As for Larius, we'd also already seen the ghoulified Carta and Anders be affected by Corypheus' influence, so Larius suddenly regaining his senses with Corypheus' death wouldn't be too strange.)

 

As for Anders, Hawke thought they were trying to help free him from Justice and didn't realise they'd actually helped build them a bomb. The first time you played the game, did anyone see that coming? (Even if you knew how gunpower is made?)

[dekarserverbot]

(Why Hawke doesn't know about Flemeth despite living relatively near the Korcari Wilds, I reckon that Malcolm deliberately never told his kids the legend, fearing that they would venture into the forest deliberately to find the scary Witch that lives there. Be honest, who doesn't see Hawke and (especially) Carver doing that?).

Plothole...

With Corypheus, no-one present knew about the ability to soul jump, which was supposed to be unique to the Archdemon anyway. Besides, Anders and Carver/Bethany were too green to know and Janeka/Larius weren't going to tell non-Wardens one of the biggest secrets they have, so how was anyone supposed to know that it was even possible?

another plothole 

As for Anders, Hawke thought they were trying to help free him from Justice and didn't realise they'd actually helped build them a bomb, Tthe first time you played the game, did anyone see that coming? (Even if you knew how gunpower is made?)

the final plothole

[Sifr]

Saying everything is a "plothole" without given valid reasons for why it should be considered one does not make it so.

 

I'll grant you, Hawke not knowing who Flemeth is might be considered something of a stretch, but at the same time, from an out-of-game perspective it makes sense as new players need an explanation for who this woman is, while old players need reminding since Flemeth has now got a radically different design. We saw something similar to this in ME2 when Shepard had no clue who or what Cerberus was, as well as the retcon from Alliance black-ops to a N.G.O. outside the Alliance. It's less a plothole and more simply narrative license at work, because as tvtropes puts it, "Viewers Are Morons".

 

Likewise, explain how Hawke and company are supposed to know about the soul-jumping thing? Given that we've already seen posts from people who don't even believe that Corypheus is still alive (which he clearly is), you can see why the characters in-game would be equally oblivious to that?

 

And in a medieval world like Thedas, no-one save the Dwarves or Qunari uses explosives at all! Hawke can even comment to Javaris on how useless explosives are when you have magic users or enchantments that can achieve the same kinds of results with much less hassle? Of course Hawke isn't going to recognise the formula for gunpowder when they see it?!

[dekarserverbot]

And in a medieval world like Thedas, no-one save the Dwarves or Qunari uses explosives at all! Hawke can even comment to Javaris on how useless explosives are when you have magic users or enchantments that can achieve the same kinds of results with much less hassle? Of course Hawke isn't going to recognise the formula for gunpowder when they see it?!

this would be a valid argument if we dismiss act one (the qunari incident) and that we have a bard that modified it's own crossbow during all the game (who also trends to die a lot because of teleporting bandits).

It's valid to not recognise salt if you have not cooked anything in yout life? I guess not.

[Sifr]

this would be a valid argument if we dismiss act one (the qunari incident) and that we have a bard that modified it's own crossbow during all the game (who also trends to die a lot because of teleporting bandits).

It's valid to not recognise salt if you have not cooked anything in yout life? I guess not.

 

Except as pointed out earlier, Hawke was completely unaware of the existence of gunpowder and displayed ignorance of how dwarves manage without magic to blow things up, until that quest in Act One. By the end of that quest, s/he never learns how the Qunari "black powder" is actually made, only that such things exist and the Qunari guard it's secret jealously.

 

If Javaris knows how dwarven explosives are made, he never explains the process to Hawke and Varric's family were former nobles, not miners, so he'd likely have no idea how dwarven explosives work either. While Varric does have a variety of "bombs" that he modifies Bianca to use, none of them are necessarily explosive in nature (despite it's description, Miasmic flask is more of a stun-grenade and gas-bomb than anything else).

 

In Act 3, when Hawke is asked to collect a series of random ingredients, Hawke comments on each in turn, wondering what Anders could possibly want salt and fertiliser for? Hawke obviously recognises what they are, but is completely oblivious that they can be combined to make an explosive mixture.

 

My apologies for nitpicking, but you're forgetting we're dealing with a medieval society who aren't privy to the same common knowledge that the players have had the benefit of knowing for hundreds of years. Nor should we assume that they'd necessarily share our level of science and technology at that time, as they have developed an (over-) reliance on magic instead. We know for instance that due to the fear of Blood Magic and being labelled maleficarum, research into anatomy is rarely done and Thedas' knowledge on the subject is astoundly poor compared to that of our own medieval period.

[Pateu]

This does not preclude the possibility that Corypheus is actually dead

 

There's a DAI achievement for killing Corypheus.

 

So... yeah.