If you mean by memory; Yes, as I played this again recently. One entry especially speaks to this troubled area:
http://dragonage.wik...ma_of_Kirkwall
So your argument is, "Strange things have happened in Kirkwall so Merrill's mirror was 100% guaranteed doomed to failure?"
The lore is irrelevant if it doesn't guarantee failure. Thanks for listening.
Merrill's dream that a working mirror would somehow allow hunter-gatherers to rival medieval farmers was all but guaranteed to fail.
It was a pride demon. And now you're head-canoning things to strengthen your argument regarding areas prone to possession or whatever.
Regardless, Merrill's work with the mirror wasn't black/white (0% chance of success) despite what strange arguments you make.
Yep, a pride demon who's target was Marethari, not Merrill
Merrill: Hawke, come with me and kill me if something goes wrong.
Marethari: The demon's plan was to escape it's prison through the mirror then kill Merrill. I knew I couldn't defeat it blah blah blah. So I freed an extremely powerful demon from its prison in order to become its prison?
The only reason we have to climb Sundermount in Act 3 is because Marethari already freed the demon therefore it no longer needed to communicate with Merrill.
As for the mirror having 0% chance of success. LOL. Tell that to Morrigan who stole Dalish knowledge from the Dalish. She then uses that same knowledge to locate a working mirror. Yet Merrill isn't even allowed to try.
Yep, a pride demon who's target was Marethari, not Merrill
Merrill: Hawke, come with me and kill me if something goes wrong.
Marethari: The demon's plan was to escape it's prison through the mirror then kill Merrill. I knew I couldn't defeat it blah blah blah. So I freed an extremely powerful demon from its prison in order to become its prison?
The only reason we have to climb Sundermount in Act 3 is because Marethari already freed the demon therefore it no longer needed to communicate with Merrill.
As for the mirror having 0% chance of success. LOL. Tell that to Morrigan who stole Dalish knowledge from the Dalish. She then uses that same knowledge to locate a working mirror. Yet Merrill isn't even allowed to try.
I think the mirrors is not as much of issue as the means Merrill used to reach it. Trying to restore lost lore is not really issue, but using questionable magic and making deal with demons? There is were the problem lies.
The biggest problem with this story is that it is one that can be completely avoided if people talk to each other.
I don't mean that Merrill and Marethari disagree and keep going around in circles. I mean that if we take Marethari at her word, it means that she held crucial information from both Merrill and the clan the entire time. Information that would clearly stood a chance at preventing the events in the 3rd Act.
Had Marethari told her people outright: "I am going to the top of Sundermount to assist Hawke in dealing with the malevolent spirit imprisoned there. Merrill will be accompanying us. The danger to us is very real. It is likely that one or more of us will not be coming back. I risk this for the good of the clan. If I do not return, know that I was felled in battle." - there is a very good chance that no battle with the Dalish would take place.
Of course, that is dependent upon Marethari becoming possessed after she goes to the Sundermount summit and not before. Since we don't know exactly when she imprisoned the demon within herself. Had she been possessed for some time, the lack of communication might have been deliberate on the part the demon. This is possible given it is is pride demon - reflecting Marethari's pride that she knew what was best for both her clan and Merrill. It's hard to say if the demon would have been patient enough to keep up such a charade.
Regardless, if Marethari knew the demon's intent and never told anyone, then she brought this tragedy to both Merrill and her people. Merrill is obsessed but she is not unintelligent. Marethari giving Merrill vague warnings about "turn away from this dark path" or "only ruin lies with the Eluvian" does not adequately or accurately describe the threat. Telling Merrill, "I have discovered the malevolent spirit atop Sundermount plans to use the Eluvian to possess you if you successfully repair it," would give Merrill reason to either pause her activities or seek a way to deal with the demon prior to repairing the mirror.
Either way, this is a story where the deliberate withholding of critical information was responsible for the consequences at its end. It's frustrating from an audience perspective, knowing this conflict could have either been avoided outright or taken a drastically different direction had Marethari actually bothered to share what she had learned and been honest with her people.
To some extent, I agree with the above post. Much of the troubles in the game comes from a decided lack of communication, but part of this is seems to be caused by the thin nature of the Veil in the general area.
However, I do not believe Marethari knew everything from the start, but was discovering vital information along the way, as was the Player.
Sure. But she obviously knew prior to going up to Sundermount's summit. She mentioned nothing to Merrill then, nor nothing to her clan. In the three years between the Qunari attack and Merrill returning to Sundermount to confront the demon, she could have either sent a message for Merrill to visit or went to the Alienage herself.
She did neither of those things.
The biggest problem with this story is that it is one that can be completely avoided if people talk to each other.
I don't mean that Merrill and Marethari disagree and keep going around in circles. I mean that if we take Marethari at her word, it means that she held crucial information from both Merrill and the clan the entire time. Information that would clearly stood a chance at preventing the events in the 3rd Act.
Had Marethari told her people outright: "I am going to the top of Sundermount to assist Hawke in dealing with the malevolent spirit imprisoned there. Merrill will be accompanying us. The danger to us is very real. It is likely that one or more of us will not be coming back. I risk this for the good of the clan. If I do not return, know that I was felled in battle." - there is a very good chance that no battle with the Dalish would take place.
Of course, that is dependent upon Marethari becoming possessed after she goes to the Sundermount summit and not before. Since we don't know exactly when she imprisoned the demon within herself. Had she been possessed for some time, the lack of communication might have been deliberate on the part the demon. This is possible given it is is pride demon - reflecting Marethari's pride that she knew what was best for both her clan and Merrill. It's hard to say if the demon would have been patient enough to keep up such a charade.
Regardless, if Marethari knew the demon's intent and never told anyone, then she brought this tragedy to both Merrill and her people. Merrill is obsessed but she is not unintelligent. Marethari giving Merrill vague warnings about "turn away from this dark path" or "only ruin lies with the Eluvian" does not adequately or accurately describe the threat. Telling Merrill, "I have discovered the malevolent spirit atop Sundermount plans to use the Eluvian to possess you if you successfully repair it," would give Merrill reason to either pause her activities or seek a way to deal with the demon prior to repairing the mirror.
Either way, this is a story where the deliberate withholding of critical information was responsible for the consequences at its end. It's frustrating from an audience perspective, knowing this conflict could have either been avoided outright or taken a drastically different direction had Marethari actually bothered to share what she had learned and been honest with her people.
I don't find it frustrating, as it all fits together once you see Marethari as clearly the villainous one, either being blinded by pride to such an extent that she wanted only her word to drive Merrill away, or being actually in league with Audacity somehow.
I don't find it frustrating, as it all fits together once you see Marethari as clearly the villainous one, either being blinded by pride to such an extent that she wanted only her word to drive Merrill away, or being actually in league with Audacity somehow.
Yep, a pride demon who's target was Marethari, not Merrill
The initial target had been Merrill, and the pride demon had been playing her like a fiddle for years. In the end it was Marethari that ends up possessed, but even that is indirectly caused by a fatal combination of pride and naivete in Merrill.
The initial target had been Merrill, and the pride demon had been playing her like a fiddle for years. In the end it was Marethari that ends up possessed, but even that is indirectly caused by a fatal combination of pride and naivete in Merrill.
I'd also point out that -- if Hawke does not remind Merrill that the pride demon was bound to Marethari's life -- it will successfully trick her into feeding it further by offering words of praise from Marethari ("You've beaten it, da'len. The demon is gone. You are so much stronger than I imagined.")
Audacity comes back and exclaims, "SUCH DELICIOUS PRIDE!!"
It's all very well to say that they should have moved on and for a nomadic people who want to stay on the edges of shem's minds, yes they should have moved on. But they have no halla. What the hell happened to the halla?
The initial target had been Merrill, and the pride demon had been playing her like a fiddle for years. In the end it was Marethari that ends up possessed, but even that is indirectly caused by a fatal combination of pride and naivete in Merrill.
Audacity stopped playing Merrill the instant Merrill left Sundermount; she was no longer in its reach. Marethari was the only one in range of its influence... and clearly succumbed to it.
I always kill the clan. I refuse to meta-game by clicking the "I take full responsibility" line. In that situation I would've said "Marethari was possessed." If they can't accept the Keeper's stupidity then it's their funeral.
You had more "honorable" intentions to kill them than me, I kill the Elves just to make Daisy cry and then I kill her later.
You had more "honorable" intentions to kill them than me, I kill the Elves just to make Daisy cry and then I kill her later.
Well.. ok then
Audacity stopped playing Merrill the instant Merrill left Sundermount; she was no longer in its reach. Marethari was the only one in range of its influence... and clearly succumbed to it.
She was still being played by it because she felt she needed it to help her fix the Eluvian. Merrill's obsession with the artifact and her own stubborn pride were going to be her downfall.
Demons don't make deals with mortals unless the demon has something to gain from it. The promise of getting the Eluvian to function was always the hook to eventually possessing Merrill. The demon gave her enough to give her hope and sate her curiosity, and then sat back to wait while its plan came to fruition. Audacity was playing the long game and knew Merrill would eventually come crawling back for 'more' with the Eluvian.
Marethari may have blundered as well in allowing the demon to possess her, but it was a blunder that saved Merrill's life.
Merrill gets it right here: (rivalry path)
She was still being played by it because she felt she needed it to help her fix the Eluvian. Merrill's obsession with the artifact and her own stubborn pride were going to be her downfall.
Demons don't make deals with mortals unless the demon has something to gain from it. The promise of getting the Eluvian to function was always the hook to eventually possessing Merrill. The demon gave her enough to give her hope and sate her curiosity, and then sat back to wait while its plan came to fruition. Audacity was playing the long game and knew Merrill would eventually come crawling back for 'more' with the Eluvian.
Marethari may have blundered as well in allowing the demon to possess her, but it was a blunder that saved Merrill's life.
Merrill gets it right here: (rivalry path)
Given that the only person who ever says that the Eluvian is the key to possessing Merrill is Audacity itself, I'm astonished that so many people trust it so readily. I cannot imagine that Merrill was ever the real target; there'd be no point with Merrill leaving, and simply manipulating Marethari to free it turned out to be far easier... and I don't think the Eluvian would even work to free Audacity.
Demons don't make deals with mortals unless the demon has something to gain from it. The promise of getting the Eluvian to function was always the hook to eventually possessing Merrill. The demon gave her enough to give her hope and sate her curiosity, and then sat back to wait while its plan came to fruition. Audacity was playing the long game and knew Merrill would eventually come crawling back for 'more' with the Eluvian.
You're assuming that Merril was always the demon's target, which, the more times that I replay DA2, the less sure I believe that's the actual case.
Remember, we have absolutely no idea when Audacity possessed Marethari, other than that it occurs between the end of Merril's Act 2 quest and the beginning of Act 3 (which puts her possession as occurring sometime in the course of 3 years). Was the Keeper completely "herself" and telling the truth when explaining what the demon's plan is to Hawke/Merril? Somehow, I doubt it, I just can't believe that the demon's influence over her only occurs after she is beaten "halfway" and she tries to trick Merril so Audacity can try to kill her. Maybe the demon's intention was to destroy the Keeper? Maybe even destroy the Dalish clan itself or even prevent the Eluvian from being completed/activated? I mean, even before she became possessed Marethari was spreading lies and falsehoods to the clan about Merril after she left in order to 'protect' them from what she saw as evil (the Eluvian shards), and I can't see how her negative words would lessened under a demon's influence. As shown, the taint from the shards were purified (by blood magic, yes, but it was Merril's own blood used, it's not like she was sacrificing people to purify it) and Merril was not corrupted be using them (or by using blood magic, despite what Ander's would claim), but for the Keeper ignores these things and still claims to the clan that she will bring the corruption back.
Marethari was indeed a wise Keeper and can be kind and compassionate.... but she is flawed like any other person - she can allow herself to be spiteful, arrogant, and dismissive of another's (ie, Merril's) views if they're different than her own, as seen in how she handled the Arulin'holm blade situation (rather than keep her word to give it to Merril, as she should have done based on Dalish tradition and values, she instead acts like a child and gives the tool to Hawke, a non-Dalish, instead and explicitly tells him/her not to give it to Merril).
Something else to remember is Merril's words when they reach the demon's bound-shrine - Merril states that that the demon couldn't just escape or be unbound, that even with powerful magic that something terrible and horrible would have to be done in order to it leave (Merril even states to Hawke that she has absolutely no intention of ever freeing the demon in order to learn more of how to activate the Eluvian). So what then is that "terrible" thing that Marethari did in order to release the demon and bind it to herself? I don't know, but given Merril's knowledge on the matter, I doubt it was a small thing...
Also keep in mind that what Marethari reveals about the Eluvians - that they are a gateway to the Fade and Audacity always wanted Merril to complete the mirror so it could use it to escape from the Fade - is utterly false based on the information revealed by Morrigan in the Witch Hunt DLC and in the recent Masked Empire novel: according to Morrigan the Eluvians are in fact portals that connect to realms "beyond the Fade" and in the latest novel, the path traveled between Eluvians is a realm completely separate from the Fade entirely. How then does Marethari come to the conclusion that the Eluvians are connected to the Fade and the demon's plan was to use it to escape? My own opinion? Because that's what Audacity told her, and (from my perspective, at any rate) Marethari was so convinced that what she had been saying was right to Merril (that the Eluvian was always dangerous, etc) that she allowed the demon to sway her thoughts. Just because Marethari is the Keeper and has many years of knowledge and experience doesn't not make her immune to being swayed by a demon's words - hell, she even says that during Feynriel's Act 2 quest ("No one is immune to a demon's offer"). If what Marethari is claiming about the Eluvians is false, why then would she (or really, the demon) say false information of what the demon intended to do with it to Merril? (either the demon is deliberately giving Merril lies about their true nature or Audacity is warping Marethari's existing viewpoints, that the Eluvians are evil, for it's own purposes)
Given that the only person who ever says that the Eluvian is the key to possessing Merrill is Audacity itself, I'm astonished that so many people trust it so readily. I cannot imagine that Merrill was ever the real target; there'd be no point with Merrill leaving, and simply manipulating Marethari to free it turned out to be far easier... and I don't think the Eluvian would even work to free Audacity.
It isn't necessarily the mirror. It is that Merrill believes she needs Audacity to get the mirror to work. That dependence on the demon was going to be her downfall. Audacity was going to deceive her into taking part in a magical ritual that would benefit it rather than her.
You're assuming that Merril was always the demon's target, which, the more times that I replay DA2, the less sure I believe that's the actual case.
That Marethari might have been the target all along is an interesting theory, although one I don't agree with. But even if Marethari was the intended target it does not absolve Merrill from blame. Regardless of whether the original target was Merrill or Marethari, Merrill was key to the demon's plan. Audacity depended on Merrill's obsession with the mirror, her naivety in dealing with demons, and the stubborn pride that continually led her to ignore advice to forget the mirror, and criticism of her use of blood magic and dealings with the demon. Marethari allows the demon to possess her in a foolish attempt at saving Merrill, which would not have happened had Merrill abandoned plans to fix the mirror and avoided any future contact with the demon.
If Marethari is the intended target than Merrill was duped into being the bait. In either case, Audacity plays her like a fiddle.
It isn't necessarily the mirror. It is that Merrill believes she needs Audacity to get the mirror to work. That dependence on the demon was going to be her downfall. Audacity was going to deceive her into taking part in a magical ritual that would benefit it rather than her.
Merrill would never have performed the ritual to begin with.
That Marethari might have been the target all along is an interesting theory, although one I don't agree with. But even if Marethari was the intended target it does not absolve Merrill from blame. Regardless of whether the original target was Merrill or Marethari, Merrill was key to the demon's plan. Audacity depended on Merrill's obsession with the mirror, her naivety in dealing with demons, and the stubborn pride that continually led her to ignore advice to forget the mirror, and criticism of her use of blood magic and dealings with the demon. Marethari allows the demon to possess her in a foolish attempt at saving Merrill, which would not have happened had Merrill abandoned plans to fix the mirror and avoided any future contact with the demon.
If Marethari is the intended target than Merrill was duped into being the bait. In either case, Audacity plays her like a fiddle.
The worst you can accuse Merrill of is never thinking that Marethari would have fallen prey to a demon based on manipulation so petty. Neither Merrill nor anyone else was harmed by blood magic or the Eluvian; the only harm that existed was in Marethari's mind, and it seems grossly unfair to blame Merrill when her only crime was not thinking of the Keeper as a jealous, vindictive traitor.
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