122 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

Merrill would never have performed the ritual to begin with.

 

 

That runs counter to what she actually says in the game. She returns Sundermount seeking help with the Eluvian from the demon. She is also aware of the possibility that she might be duped into possession, but is willing to risk it for the sake of her obsession. She mentions the possibility that she might become an abomination and need to be slain by Hawke, to Hawke.

 

 

 

The worst you can accuse Merrill of is never thinking that Marethari would have fallen prey to a demon based on manipulation so petty. Neither Merrill nor anyone else was harmed by blood magic or the Eluvian; the only harm that existed was in Marethari's mind, and it seems grossly unfair to blame Merrill when her only crime was not thinking of the Keeper as a jealous, vindictive traitor.

 

Whether you think Marethari was the intended target or Merrill, as I do, Merrill is still at least partially responsible for the harm that befalls Marethari or her clan. Audacity exploits Merrill's foolish pride to gain its 'freedom' in the mortal realm. Even Anders tells her as much and calls her a fool. Mage 101 is that you don't make deals with demons. Ever. 

 

I get that you like the character. But character fandom shouldn't blind you to that character's flaws.

[Xilizhra]

That runs counter to what she actually says in the game. She returns Sundermount seeking help with the Eluvian from the demon. She is also aware of the possibility that she might be duped into possession, but is willing to risk it for the sake of her obsession. She mentions the possibility that she might become an abomination and need to be slain by Hawke, to Hawke.

Merrill intended to speak to Audacity, not summon it.

 

 

Whether you think Marethari was the intended target or Merrill, as I do, Merrill is still at least partially responsible for the harm that befalls Marethari or her clan. Audacity exploits Merrill's foolish pride to gain its 'freedom' in the mortal realm. Even Anders tells her as much and calls her a fool. Mage 101 is that you don't make deals with demons. Ever. 

 

I get that you like the character. But character fandom shouldn't blind you to that character's flaws.

This despite the fact that it's quite possible in both games to make deals with demons and not be screwed over. In any case, the only harm that came to Marethari, came from Marethari's own choices. Merrill is not responsible for her Keeper.

[themikefest]

Merril is a couple cans short of a 6-pack. She was too lazy to use lyrium for the mirror, so she turned stupid to ask a demon to help her. Idiot. Had she just left the mirror alone or used lyrium, the keeper would be alive and the clan wouldn't be killed, if you choose to fight them.

[AVPen]

That Marethari might have been the target all along is an interesting theory, although one I don't agree with. But even if Marethari was the intended target it does not absolve Merrill from blame. Regardless of whether the original target was Merrill or Marethari, Merrill was key to the demon's plan. Audacity depended on Merrill's obsession with the mirror, her naivety in dealing with demons, and the stubborn pride that continually led her to ignore advice to forget the mirror, and criticism of her use of blood magic and dealings with the demon. Marethari allows the demon to possess her in a foolish attempt at saving Merrill, which would not have happened had Merrill abandoned plans to fix the mirror and avoided any future contact with the demon.

 

If Marethari is the intended target than Merrill was duped into being the bait. In either case, Audacity plays her like a fiddle.

My point was that neither Merril or Marethari are flawless in this situation. Yes, Merril was the one who went to Audacity first to learn how to purify the Eulvian, but based on the information given in the story, it sounds like she only went to the demon once and then left it alone (nor was she seeking out other new demons in the Fade to talk to). Also, I don't think I'd called Merril naive with how she views spirits/demons - if anything, she had one of the wisest attitudes of them, based on what she says to Anders after his Act 2 quest and he angry tells her that she could become an abomination:

"Anders... there's no such thing as a 'good' spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that, I'm sorry you didn't."

Also if Marethari truly allowed herself to be possessed in some vain notion that doing so would save Merril or if even Audacity offered to leave Merril alone in exchange for entering Marethari instead, then Marethari was the naive one if she believe that she could allow a demon to inhabit her body without any serious repercussions. It's true that Marethari wouldn't have gone to the demon if Merril had never sought it out first, but that does not mitigate Marethari's naivety or selfish actions of trying to protect Merril like a child (and I daresay, to even control/influence Merril's beliefs back to being Marethari's, which she always viewed as being right) when the end result was something that she had always preached against and that she knew would end in tragedy and suffering (if not just for herself, but for also Merril or the clan).

 

 

Merril is a couple cans short of a 6-pack. She was too lazy to use lyrium for the mirror, so she turned stupid to ask a demon to help her. Idiot. Had she just left the mirror alone or used lyrium, the keeper would be alive and the clan wouldn't be killed, if you choose to fight them.

"Too lazy"? Where the hell is she going to get all the lyrium need to help purify the mirror? Lyrium doesn't grow on trees (if it did, am sure humans wouldn't have to barter like hell with the dwarves for it then...) and the Chantry/Templars controls the market for it, so how was she lazy in not using something which she had absolutely NO ACCESS TO? 

All she had access to was her own blood to power the ritual needed to purify the Eluvian shard/s of the darkspawn taint (and using her own blood as a powersource, I would argue, is not an evil use of blood magic).

[themikefest]

 

"Too lazy"? Where the hell is she going to get all the lyrium need to help purify the mirror? Lyrium doesn't grow on trees (if it did, am sure humans wouldn't have to barter like hell with the dwarves for it then...) and the Chantry/Templars controls the market for it, so how was she lazy in not using something which she had absolutely NO ACCESS TO? 

All she had access to was her own blood to power the ritual needed to purify the Eluvian shard/s of the darkspawn taint (and using her own blood as a powersource, I would argue, is not an evil use of blood magic).

The fact is she went to a demon to help her with the mirror. And because of her stupidity, it cost the life of the keeper and possibly the lives of the clan

[AVPen]

The fact is she went to a demon to help her with the mirror. And because of her stupidity, it cost the life of the keeper and possibly the lives of the clan

Merril made a choice to seek a demon's knowledge on how to purify the Eluvian... and Marethari made a choice to allow herself to be possessed by a demon.... and the clan made a choice to alienate and even attack Merril based on the prejudices and fears presented to them by her Keeper... none are blameless in this matter, nor is one person solely at fault for the outcome.

[themikefest]

Merril made a choice to seek a demon's knowledge on how to purify the Eluvian... and Marethari made a choice to allow herself to be possessed by a demon.... and the clan made a choice to alienate and even attack Merril based on the prejudices and fears presented to them by her Keeper... none are blameless in this matter, nor is one person solely at fault for the outcome.

Shes still an idiot for seeking out anything from a demon.

 

Had Merrill not seeked out a demon. the keeper would not of been possessed by the demon and the clan would not hate her

[AVPen]

Had Merrill not seeked out a demon. the keeper would not of been possessed by the demon and the clan would not hate her

The situation may not have happened, true, but ultimately Marethari made her own choice to be possessed, regardless of her reasons. And the clan hated Merril because of the Keeper's lies to them about Merril and the Eluvian (note that Marethari never claimed that she told the clan that Merril was evil or tainted because the demon, but that it was because of the Eluvian's "corruption").

[themikefest]

The situation may not have happened, true, but ultimately Marethari made her own choice to be possessed, regardless of her reasons. And the clan hated Merril because of the Keeper's lies to them about Merril and the Eluvian (note that Marethari never claimed that she told the clan that Merril was evil or tainted because the demon, but that it was because of the Eluvian's "corruption").

Doesn't matter if it was the keepers choice to merge with the demon. That would never of happened had Merrill seeked out a demon. It all falls on her. She started the chain of events that led to what we see in the game.

[Elhanan]

Duncan broke that mirror for good reasons in DAO, and Merrill was a witness to the horror that would likely occur. While I like Daisy, she is responsible for her choices and actions; both the Keeper and Hawke have the choice to help her pay that terrible price.

[AVPen]

Doesn't matter if it was the keepers choice to merge with the demon. That would never of happened had Merrill seeked out a demon. It all falls on her. She started the chain of events that led to what we see in the game.

Apparently self-accountability is lost on you, given that you refuse to acknowledge Marethari's or the clan's role in their own destruction... think what you want, I'm done arguing this. 

 

Duncan broke that mirror for good reasons in DAO, and Merrill was a witness to the horror that would likely occur. While I like Daisy, she is responsible for her choices and actions; both the Keeper and Hawke have the choice to help her pay that terrible price.

Duncan broke the mirror because of the darkspawn taint (not because the mirror was by its nature evil), but he didn't know that the mirror could also be purified. Also, he didn't know the truth about the Eluvians origin or their intended purpose (given that he claimed they were made by the Tevinter Imperium)/

[themikefest]

Apparently self-accountability is lost on you, given that you refuse to acknowledge Marethari's or the clan's role in their own destruction... think what you want, I'm done arguing this. 

 

And you can't accept the fact that Merrill started the whole thing with her stupidity. Think what you want, I'm done arguing this.

[blaidfiste]

Apparently self-accountability is lost on you, given that you refuse to acknowledge Marethari's or the clan's role in their own destruction... think what you want, I'm done arguing this. 

 

 

Duncan broke the mirror because of the darkspawn taint (not because the mirror was by its nature evil), but he didn't know that the mirror could also be purified. Also, he didn't know the truth about the Eluvians origin or their intended purpose (given that he claimed they were made by the Tevinter Imperium)/

Finally someone who gets it.  

 

You never never let a demon inside you.  Never.  The entire series so far has involved Demons scheming their way into the mortal realm.  Mage after mage explode into whatever demon they fall victim to.  Marethari is no different.

 

As for the Eluvians

 

It is known to be a portal of some sort, and it can transmit theTaint. It was crafted by the elves of Arlathan to be used as portals for telecommunication and rapid transportation between their cities, using a type of magic different from that of the modern Circle of Magi or even the Tevinter Imperium.

During the fall of Arlathan, many Eluvians were destroyed, while those that survived the conflict seemingly stopped functioning. An unknown number of Eluvians survived to the present day, scattered across Thedas in forgotten or well hidden locations.

The Tevinter magisters attempted to unlock the secrets of the Eluvians, but all they could use them for was long-distance communication. Some Dalish have also attempted to rediscover and reactivate the Eluvian network to no avail.

They are not some evil thingies to run away from.

[TEWR]

It's a good thing I'm refraining from even talking about this discussion in depth as I've done in the past. I see the Merrill detractors still have the same old tired bullshit arguments that aren't based on facts but rather a distortion of facts and calling people idiots for choices they think are wrong.

 

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the same people calling Merrill an idiot are going to go and praise Solas when he's more or less male Merrill.

[Jaison1986]

It's a good thing I'm refraining from even talking about this discussion in depth as I've done in the past. I see the Merrill detractors still have the same old tired bullshit arguments that aren't based on facts but rather a distortion of facts and calling people idiots for choices they think are wrong.

 

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the same people calling Merrill an idiot are going to go and praise Solas when he's more or less male Merrill.

 

Yeah, he is totally trying to save people that don't want nor need to be saved. Messing with demons with the utmost naivety and having pursuits that will surely kill him on the long run. I can't phantom why people try to sugar coat everything Merrill does. She could reduce Kirkwall to rubble and people would still make excuses to justify it.

[General TSAR]

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the same people calling Merrill an idiot are going to go and praise Solas when he's more or less male Merrill.

Nope. I'm going to drive a sword of mercy into his heart. 

[TEWR]

Yeah, he is totally trying to save people that don't want nor need to be saved. Messing with demons with the utmost naivety and having pursuits that will surely kill him on the long run. I can't phantom why people try to sugar coat everything Merrill does. She could reduce Kirkwall to rubble and people would still make excuses to justify it.

 

You and the point seem to be on separate parts of the world. People go on and on about Merrill being an "idiot" because she has dealings with one Demon that's trapped, cut off from the Fade, and severely weakened as a result, yet Solas is noted as being a person who will go up to anything and everything in the Fade. Demon, spirit, whatever.

 

 

Nope. I'm going to drive a sword of mercy into his heart. 

 

Well at least you're honest!

[themikefest]

 

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the same people calling Merrill an idiot are going to go and praise Solas when he's more or less male Merrill.

Really? You're assuming I like Solas. I know very little about him so I can't say if I will like him or not. And if he does the same as what Merrill did in DA2, then I would have no problem killing him.

[TEWR]

Note that I didn't name you specifically. I said an in general remark. You're not the only person to have ever called Merrill an idiot, and this fandom has shown time and time again it has some very problematic mentalities.

[Jaison1986]

Note that I didn't name you specifically. I said an in general remark. You're not the only person to have ever called Merrill an idiot, and this fandom has shown time and time again it has some very problematic mentalities.

 

"Problematic mentalities" by your standards. How so not pretentious.

[General TSAR]

Note that I didn't name you specifically. I said an in general remark. You're not the only person to have ever called Merrill an idiot, and this fandom has shown time and time again it has some very problematic mentalities.

That's like, only your opinion. 

[Corker]

It depends on the context. If I saw someone dear to me messing with radioactive material while having limited knowledge of it and likely to eventually die of radiation poisoning, I would do my best to stop them before they get themselves killed. And say, had religious groups stopped Einstein from creating the atomic bombs, wouldn't we have an good result from it?

 

Uranium would still be fissile.  Somebody would figure it out, eventually.

 

I actually want to rant about J. Robert Oppenheimer every time someone calls Merrill "naive" or "stupid."  Or maybe Operation Paperclip - there's a fine deal with some devils that resulted in the moon landing.  Or any other of hundreds of technological advances that can be used for peace or for war, and what it's like to be one of the scientists or engineers who helped to birth them.  (And can I say how amazing it is that our rogue magical engineer character is a woman?  Because it's pretty freaking amazing.)

 

Overconfident, cocky, stubborn, and audacious - those I'd cosign.  (She's not a braggart, though, which usually comes with these traits - so it's easy to miss them.  And in matters other than magic, she's not very confident at all.)  But not stupid - she knows quite a lot, just not as much as she thinks she does.  And not naive - she is not innocent, not understanding the risks that she's taking.  She's underestimated them, but she knows very well that they're there.

[Han Shot First]

Note that I didn't name you specifically. I said an in general remark. You're not the only person to have ever called Merrill an idiot, and this fandom has shown time and time again it has some very problematic mentalities.

 

It isn't an inaccurate statement. Merrill is the Forrest Gump of Thedas. Stupid is as stupid does.

[TEWR]

It very much is an inaccurate statement. She is not an idiot.

 

Plus, calling Merrill akin to Forrest Gump, a man with an intellectual disability due to problems at birth (ignoring how Forrest is brighter then many think) is... kinda proving my point about problematic mentalities, y'know? Merrill's not intellectually disabled.

 

Even Anders tells her as much and calls her a foo

 

Right, because Anders is a paragon of objectivity. The guy who calls Fenris a beast obsessed with revenge when that's his persona as well. The guy who believed there was such a thing as a good spirit and is told by Merrill that there is NO such thing as a good spirit and that they're all dangerous.

[dragonflight288]

I've bowed out of this fray long ago. I recognize Merrill is not an idiot, unaware of all the nuances of human society and is suffering culture shock, but I love her sarcasm and how she goes out of her way to try an see things in a more positive way, and at least tries to get along with both Anders and Fenris despite the fact that both outright verbally abuse her, from Fenris calling her a monster while she's grieving to Anders refusal to accept another way to look at magic and the Fade beyond what he had been taught as an Andrastian and thus cannot see with any objectivity that Merrill's dalish upbringing taught her a way to look at magic that Andrastians would never consider. For example, the fact that there are NO good spirits whatsoever and that they are all dangerous, whereas Andrastian teachings say that there are benevolent spirits and malevolent demons. 

 

From my experience with Valor or Justice in Awakening, the so called benevolent spirits aren't really benevolent at all, but merely not interested in mortals or simply pity them. Heck, Valor would be considered a benevolent spirit, and he challenges our Warden to a duel to determine our worth, dictating that if he finds our Warden unworthy, he'd slay us. 

 

Did Merrill make mistakes? Yes. Does that make her responsible for Merethari's actions? Nope. Merethari is an adult and leader of her clan, and that makes her accountable for her own actions and her actions or inactions regarding the welfare of the clan must also be held on her as its welfare is her responsibility. Merrill essentially would not be a member of the clan anymore immediately after she leaves and lives in Kirkwall. She'd be a city elf with a Dalish background now. She is emotionally connected to the clan, but after she left she loses her accountability to the clan's welfare save where she is directly involved, and even then, only for what she says and does. She is no longer in a position to influence the clan's thoughts or actions as the First because she was no longer the First.