122 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

Do not forget about the benevolent spirit that assisted Wynne in DAO; not all are apparently vile or apathetic.

And Merethari is responsible for her own choices, as is Merrill. But the Demon would not probably have been involved in either case without Merrill starting it all in the first place.

Merrill is not stupid or an idiot, but she is foolish and unwise; does not consider the long range implications of her actions.

[Xilizhra]

Do not forget about the benevolent spirit that assisted Wynne in DAO; not all are apparently vile or apathetic.

And Merethari is responsible for her own choices, as is Merrill. But the Demon would not probably have been involved in either case without Merrill starting it all in the first place.

Merrill is not stupid or an idiot, but she is foolish and unwise; does not consider the long range implications of her actions.

You know, Marethari accompanied her the first time? I suspect Audacity targeted Marethari then.

[Elhanan]

You know, Marethari accompanied her the first time? I suspect Audacity targeted Marethari then.

Even if true, Merrill is still guilty of her own foolish choices to interact with the Demon. And Merethari is guilty of allowing the Demon to possess her even if it was justified in her own mind.

Personally, if I were the Demon, would have used a wider selection of the Dalish; so many displayed excessive pride.

[TheMadHarridan]

Do not forget about the benevolent spirit that assisted Wynne in DAO; not all are apparently vile or apathetic.

 

True, however, one could argue that even this spirit wasn't completely "good." It could have been "watching over" Wynne for years in the attempt to find the perfect moment to possess her, so it could experience the mortal world. And the spirit could've helped her after possession in order to keep Wynne alive, so that its host would be around longer. It's hard to say for sure.

 

I'm of the opinion that nothing is completely "good" or "evil." Everyone and everything has both good and evil warring inside them, with obviously some beings having more "good" or more "evil" depending. No hero is without flaws, and no villain is completely soulless. And as for the spirits and demons, anyone with any sense wouldn't let either being near them, let alone possess them. In some cases, as shown with Justice and Anders, the "good" spirits are more dangerous than the demons. At least the demons are upfront about the fact that they are looking for a host, while the spirits are deceptively trying to appear all sparkly, pure, and harmless.

 

I'm in the corner with those who believe that both Merrill and Marethari shared responsibility when it came to Audacity. Considering Marethari and Merrill encountered Audacity together the first time, it's entirely possible that Audacity was "interested" in them both, as both displayed excessive pride. Merrill thought she was the only one who could fix the Eluvian and save her people, while Marethari thought she alone was powerful enough to hold the demon in order to save Merrill. In the end, Audacity might have ultimately chosen to possess the Keeper because Marethari was more willing and more powerful than Merrill. Just my two cents.

[Han Shot First]

It very much is an inaccurate statement. She is not an idiot.

 

Plus, calling Merrill akin to Forrest Gump, a man with an intellectual disability due to problems at birth (ignoring how Forrest is brighter then many think) is... kinda proving my point about problematic mentalities, y'know? Merrill's not intellectually disabled.

 

 

Even ignoring for a moment her blunders with Audacity and the Eluvian..

 

She needed a ball of yarn to find her way home in Kirkwall even after living there for years. She may not be mentally handicapped, but she isn't the brightest bulb either. Much of her banter with Hawke and other companions humorously alludes to the fact that Merrill is a bit simple-minded. Of course its all played like it is supposed to be an endearing trait. 

[Han Shot First]

Merrill intended to speak to Audacity, not summon it.

 

 

Merrill intended to take part in a magical ritual to fix the Eluvian with the demon's aid. She intended to do more than just speak with it, as she admits to Hawke that she may become possessed and end up an abomination. She thanks Hawke for accompanying her so that he can slay her if it goes that route.

 

 

 

 

This despite the fact that it's quite possible in both games to make deals with demons and not be screwed over. In any case, the only harm that came to Marethari, came from Marethari's own choices. Merrill is not responsible for her Keeper.

 

Because dat plot armor. Obviously they aren't going to allow the player character to become a possessed abomination, because that would be game over.

 

Sure, you can sometimes survive making a deal with a demon in the lore. But making any deal with a demon is an extremely dangerous gamble that runs a high risk said deal will eventually backfire on you or others. Even some of the deals the player can make with demons in the series reflect this. To gain the Blood Mage specialization in DA:O for example, the Warden must agree to allow the Desire Demon to possess Connor. 

[Xilizhra]

Even ignoring for a moment her blunders with Audacity and the Eluvian..

 

She needed a ball of yarn to find her way home in Kirkwall even after living there for years. She may not be mentally handicapped, but she isn't the brightest bulb either. Much of her banter with Hawke and other companions humorously alludes to the fact that Merrill is a bit simple-minded. Of course its all played like it is supposed to be an endearing trait. 

Er... no. She explicitly says that she doesn't need the twine in Act 3, and hadn't need it in ages. And she is not mentally subnormal, nor is that ever alluded to; there's culture shock and inexperience at dealing with humans, but that's all.

 

 

Merrill intended to take part in a magical ritual to fix the Eluvian with the demon's aid. She intended to do more than just speak with it, as she admits to Hawke that she may become possessed and end up an abomination. She thanks Hawke for accompanying her so that he can slay her if it goes that route.

That's more an "anything can happen in theory" thing; there's no indication she'd release it or do anything other than speak with it.

 

 

Because dat plot armor. Obviously they aren't going to allow the player character to become a possessed abomination, because that would be game over.

Is not and has never been a valid in-universe explanation for anything at all.

 

 

Sure, you can sometimes survive making a deal with a demon in the lore. But making any deal with a demon is an extremely dangerous gamble that runs a high risk said deal will eventually backfire on you or others. Even some of the deals the player can make with demons in the series reflect this. To gain the Blood Mage specialization in DA:O for example, the Warden must agree to allow the Desire Demon to possess Connor. 

No, that's not mandatory. The Warden can pass a second Intimidate check to get blood magic for free.

[Han Shot First]

Er... no. She explicitly says that she doesn't need the twine in Act 3, and hadn't need it in ages. And she is not mentally subnormal, nor is that ever alluded to; there's culture shock and inexperience at dealing with humans, but that's all.

 

 

In Act 3, after she needed it all throughout Act 2 to find her way around. There is a bit more than culture shock going on. Velanna didn't need a ball of twine to not get lost in Amaranthine. Neither did a Dalish Warden in Denerim. It isn't just the ball of yarn banter either, there are numerous instances throughout the game where Merrill comes across as simple-minded in dialogue. You're allowing character fandom to blind you to a character's flaws. One of Merrill's is that she is not the most intelligent character.

 

 

 

That's more an "anything can happen in theory" thing; there's no indication she'd release it or do anything other than speak with it.

 

 

The bolded bit is incorrect, otherwise she'd have no fear of possession. She was intending to use it to help fix the mirror, which would require more than a friendly chat. 

 

 

 

Is not and has never been a valid in-universe explanation for anything at all.

 

 

In-universe? No, but the player character doesn't really work as a good example of dealing with demons because he or she is a special snowflake that never faces the same consequences as other characters in that universe. Its one of the out-of-universe benefits of being the protagonist and player character. The the player character will always be shielded by plot armor.

 

 

 

No, that's not mandatory. The Warden can pass a second Intimidate check to get blood magic for free.

 

A ridiculously hard intimidate check (master level) if you want to get the Blood Magic specialization without sacrificing Connor. It also should be noted that this after initially sparring with and defeating the demon. If successfully intimidated the demon only agrees to abandon Connor because it has been bested, and fits in with the lore of demons sometimes cutting deals out of desperation. In any case, the Warden is the player character.

 

The lore is very clear that deals with demons very rarely work out in anything except the demon's favor. A Blood Mage Warden that doesn't sacrifice Connor is an exception, rather than the rule. 

 

Thus Merrill even considering dealing with Audacity looses none of its foolishness.

[Xilizhra]

In Act 3, after she needed it all throughout Act 2 to find her way around. There is a bit more than culture shock going on. Velanna didn't need a ball of twine to not get lost in Amaranthine. Neither did a Dalish Warden in Denerim. It isn't just the ball of yarn banter either, there are numerous instances throughout the game where Merrill comes across as simple-minded in dialogue. You're allowing character fandom to blind you to a character's flaws. One of Merrill's is that she is not the most intelligent character.

Bullshit. She doesn't need it in Act 2 either. And it's made very clear in Enigma of Kirkwall that Kirkwall itself is a nonsensical maze in which people constantly get lost. There is literally no indication that Merrill's intelligence is ever a problem; absentmindedness maybe, but that's not the same thing.

 

 

The bolded bit is incorrect, otherwise she'd have no fear of possession. She was intending to use it to help fix the mirror, which would require more than a friendly chat. 

She's being cautious and is nervous in general.

 

 

A ridiculously hard intimidate check (master level) if you want to get the Blood Magic specialization without sacrificing Connor. It also should be noted that this after initially sparring with and defeating the demon. If successfully intimidated the demon only agrees to abandon Connor because it has been bested, and fits in with the lore of demons sometimes cutting deals out of desperation. In any case, the Warden is the player character.

 

The lore is very clear that deals with demons very rarely work out in anything except the demon's favor. A Blood Mage Warden that doesn't sacrifice Connor is an exception, rather than the rule. 

 

Thus Merrill even considering dealing with Audacity looses none of its foolishness.

Four points in Coercion aren't so difficult to get, and "PC" means nothing in universe. Also, Hawke can cut a deal with and then intimidate the hunger demon in the Deep Roads.

[themikefest]

 

 

Four points in Coercion aren't so difficult to get, and "PC" means nothing in universe. Also, Hawke can cut a deal with and then intimidate the hunger demon in the Deep Roads.

I don't recall Hawke encountering any hunger demon in the deep roads. Nevermind. I forgot about the rock looking thing. I just kill the thing.

[blaidfiste]

Merrill and Marethari both dealt with Audacity

 

With Merrill:

- He remains imprisoned.  

- She admits to not being able to trust everything he says.  

- She only has to climb Sundermount because Audacity was no longer speaking to her.  

- She knows that she may become possessed and instructs Hawke to kill her if it happens.

 

 

Marethari on the other hand:  

- Readily believes Audacity's story about his plans for Merrill and the Mirror.

- Uses her magic to release Audacity

- Willingly becomes Audacity's host.

- Takes no precautions

 

 

If Audacity wasn't trying to possess Marethari, why tell her of his plans to kill Merrill?  If Marethari wasn't secretly dealing with Audacity, how did she figure out his plans?  Is she some sort of demon whisperer?

 

http://www.vgamerz.c.../solas-DAI.jpg 

[Elhanan]

Facts posted out of context, as Merrill's plans were going to lead to releasing the Demon, thus Merethari actions were made. If Merrill had simply given up on restoring the mirror, the resultant events were far more likely to not have happened.

[TEWR]

Even ignoring for a moment her blunders with Audacity and the Eluvian..

 

She needed a ball of yarn to find her way home in Kirkwall even after living there for years. She may not be mentally handicapped, but she isn't the brightest bulb either. Much of her banter with Hawke and other companions humorously alludes to the fact that Merrill is a bit simple-minded. Of course its all played like it is supposed to be an endearing trait. 

 

You do realize that the author of the Enigma of Kirkwall entries says that it took him years just to be comfortable himself? And that this revelation of his was spurred on by a master mason saying the exact same thing?

 

Getting lost in Kirkwall is par for the course it seems. the man did say "getting lost was commonplace"

 

AND she ends up not needing it anymore down the line

[blaidfiste]

Facts posted out of context, as Merrill's plans were going to lead to releasing the Demon, thus Merethari actions were made. If Merrill had simply given up on restoring the mirror, the resultant events were far more likely to not have happened.

She called out to the Demon and it didn't answer.  Why do you think that is?  

[blaidfiste]

You do realize that the author of the Enigma of Kirkwall entries says that it took him years just to be comfortable himself? And that this revelation of his was spurred on by a master mason saying the exact same thing?

 

Getting lost in Kirkwall is par for the course it seems. the man did say "getting lost was commonplace"

 

AND she ends up not needing it anymore down the line

I thought you weren't getting into this 

[TEWR]

Ah what can I say? I'm weak and my love of Merrill won out

[dragonflight288]

Facts posted out of context, as Merrill's plans were going to lead to releasing the Demon, thus Merethari actions were made. If Merrill had simply given up on restoring the mirror, the resultant events were far more likely to not have happened.

 

Strange, I recall Merethari's reasons for wanting Merrill to stop working on the eluvian were completely different in Act 2. It had nothing to do with demons and everything to do with her fear of bringing back the taint that cost them two hunters in the Dalish Origin. 

 

The reason Merethari gives us in Act 3 is the demon speaking, not Merethari herself, and because the reason changes, and the fact that Merethari is now possessed, this second reason loses credibility. 

[dragonflight288]

Ah what can I say? I'm weak and my love of Merrill won out

 

High five fellow Merrill lover. *holds hand up*

[TEWR]

Yeah! *high fives dragonflight*

[AVPen]

Strange, I recall Merethari's reasons for wanting Merrill to stop working on the eluvian were completely different in Act 2. It had nothing to do with demons and everything to do with her fear of bringing back the taint that cost them two hunters in the Dalish Origin. 

 

The reason Merethari gives us in Act 3 is the demon speaking, not Merethari herself, and because the reason changes, and the fact that Merethari is now possessed, this second reason loses credibility. 

^ This, on top of the fact that what Marethari/Audacity claims the Eluvians' purpose and usage are is completely and utterly wrong when compared to the true information on what they are that is presented by Morrigan and the characters/events in Masked Empire.

[Elhanan]

I may have this incorrect, but it was seemingly Merrill's desire to tinker with the tainted piece of the broken Mirror, and her knowledge gained from the Demon of Blood Magic; said to be 'useful' in purifying it that got her expelled from the Dalish in Act 1. Merrill had seen what had occurred to Tamlen and the Dalish Warden, yet continued to proceed even after being reminded and implored to cease by the Keeper. This does not appear to change; she simply does not have continued interaction with the Demon directly in Act 2.

I like Merrill/ Daisy too, but she is seen as a foolish, stubborn, and pride-filled lass; not as someone befitting her former role as the First, and certainly not someone qualified to be Keeper.

[TEWR]

A lot of people tend to forget that Merrill was taught Dalish healing magic by Marethari that, unamplified, was able to fight the Taint in a living being. And it's known that blood magic has the same properties as lyrium (magical enhancement). Ipso facto, she used blood magic to amplify a healing spell she already knew to purify a tainted shard and went seven years without the Taint spreading, contrary to how a group of Elves (implied to be Dalish) were corrupted by the shards they stumbled upon.

 

I may have this incorrect, but it was seemingly Merrill's desire to tinker with the tainted piece of the broken Mirror, and her knowledge gained from the Demon of Blood Magic; said to be 'useful' in purifying it that got her expelled from the Dalish in Act 1. Merrill had seen what had occurred to Tamlen and the Dalish Warden, yet continued to proceed even after being reminded and implored to cease by the Keeper. This does not appear to change; she simply does not have continued interaction with the Demon directly in Act 2.

I like Merrill/ Daisy too, but she is seen as a foolish, stubborn, and pride-filled lass; not as someone befitting her former role as the First, and certainly not someone qualified to be Keeper.

 

She'd expressed an interest in the ruins as early as DAO and Marethari had expressed a lack of knowledge on the mirror in DAO and said she didn't want anything to do with them.

 

Merrill picked up a fragment of the shard and took it with her before they went North and at some point approached the keeper, per Dalish protocol (consistent with DAO Merrill) about the two of them teaming up to cleanse the shard and study the Eluvians. Marethari refused and they ended up arguing, prompting Merrill to turn to the Demon -- who is again, trapped, cut off from the Fade, and weakened as a result -- that she and Marethari had encountered earlier and ask it to teach her blood magic because she needed the amplifying properties.

 

If two mages did the same spell on one object, it'd have more potency. So too would one spell with buckets of lyrium and following the chain one spell with some blood.

 

The Demon taught her the fundamentals of blood magic and Merrill purified the shard. She then went to Marethari again, saying it wasn't a threat any more, but they argued again. This is when Merrill revealed just how she came to cleanse the shard, leading to a heated argument that resulted in Merrill choosing exile so that if any consequences were to occur... they wouldn't befall the clan and she could study the Eluvian.

 

It's pointed out that the Demon's reach only goes so far. At the base of the mountain the two of them could only barely hear him whispering and as they got closer to his demonic Buddha statue he was louder and louder. Factor in how Merrill is in Kirkwall which is miles away from the Demon and how she has, per WoG, constructed a brand spanking new Eluvian through her own research and extrapolations and we deduce that she has had no contact with the demon whatsoever.

 

I won't deny she's prideful, mind you, nor that she has a few other flaws. That's kinda part of the Dalish schtick. When you're raised in a society that tends to go on and on about how perfect you used to be, some level of pride is probably going to come about. I don't think she's overly prideful however, and certainly if the Pride Demon in Night Terrors mind controls her (the codex makes it clear Desire and Pride Demons can do this and we see it in-game enough times, though outside of the Fade Demons are weakened which is why they seek hosts) it sort of awakens her to how much pride she holds and causes her to be more careful going forward.

 

Ironically it's only by getting away from the clan, where Marethari raised her to be the First from the age of four with barely any contact with the other members of the clan, that she truly becomes the Keeper she was meant to be.

 

EDIT: And it's worth noting that Marethari repeatedly cites how she wants nothing to do with the Eluvians, including research. So I'm not about to take the word of an Abomination (one that perfectly replicates Marethari's voice, mannerisms, and everything else later) as being credible when I've also seen evidence from Morrigan and The Masked Empire that disproves it. To say nothing of how Marethari can't keep a consistent story.

 

"Eluvians are evil! No, the Taint is there! Merrill will corrupt us all! She'll bring the Darkspawn upon us! No wait, it's a gateway for Demons!"

 

Marethari slanders Merrill to the clan -- where before only some members hated her and others were understanding and kind to her in Act 1, by Act 2 they all revile her because of Marethari's slander -- and then says "Come back to us, da'len!" as if things would be a-okay. If Merrill was tainted, suddenly coming back to the clan after abandoning her goal wouldn't magically fix things. Marethari's a few cards short of a full deck here.

 

Marethari didn't do a scrap of research and yet we should trust her? When the very argument people provide against Merrill (A Demon was involved? She's wrong!) is the exact same reason they use to justify Marethari being right? And why couldn't Marethari have gone to Merrill firsthand before being possessed? Or warn the clan about what she was doing so they could fire arrows into her immediately?

 

Marethari has been under the manipulative goading influence of Audacity for seven years because she couldn't accept that Merrill wanted to forge her own path and find out who she was.

 

I don't know who Audacity was after. I lean towards Marethari given the power and authority and pride she has, but I'm equally convinced he probably didn't care and was using the arguments between them to further drive a wedge between them and widen the gap for his own motives by way of manipulating Marethari (since that's the person he could actually influence).

[gottaloveme]

IIRC didn't Marethari allow Audrey to possess her because it was the only way for it to be killed? She couldn't destroy it without the possession or it would have gone free.

[Elhanan]

So as the First, Merrill continually defied the wishes of the Keeper until the point where she was exiled for the safety of the remaining Clan. there was no slander, but warnings of what had occurred and could happen again if the mirror was restored.

Merrill was guilty of her own actions, and Marethari was guilty of hers.

[TEWR]

So as the First, Merrill continually defied the wishes of the Keeper until the point where she was exiled for the safety of the remaining Clan. there was no slander, but warnings of what had occurred and could happen again if the mirror was restored.

Merrill was guilty of her own actions, and Marethari was guilty of hers.

 

No, Merrill left the clan of her own volition. The clan never exiled her. Exile would be akin to Velanna. This was Merrill's choice, something Marethari will tell you. The fact that Marethari actually says Merrill can always come back if she wants kinda enforces the notion of "You left of your own choice, you can come back when you want".

 

Which honestly should've been enough for the old woman. Merrill had never expressed any sort of "No, I'm never coming home!" mentality.

 

And no, if you talk to Marethari she admits that the clan fears Merrill will bring back the corruption. And where did they get that idea? Well, from Marethari of course, something she admits to. It's the only logical thing considering that the notion of the mirror being tainted was something known only to a select few people (Merrill, Marethari, Duncan, Mahariel, and Fenarel). And Fenarel was actually trying to convince Merrill to return, so I don't see him spreading such slander.

 

Duncan's dead, Mahariel's gone, and Merrill wouldn't slander herself. And even if not  -- which is one hell of a leap considering she actually admits to telling them these things -- she was in a position to say that they shouldn't cling to certainties.

 

But at least you can admit Marethari's actions were damning and not Merrill's fault.