122 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

Yes; it was a self-exile, but one supported by many or most in her Clan.

No; there was no slander:

Marethari: "Many of the Clan fear you'll bring back the corruption - or worse - from the mirror." When asked, she responds that it was her duty to warn them. No slander, but the hard truth as this was highly possible.

Was the Keeper daft in allowing the Demon to inhabit her? Absolutely, but she did it out of her concern and love for Merrill and her people. And ironically, the pride and love of her people was also the source of Merrill's motive and failures.

[Jaison1986]

Yes; it was a self-exile, but one supported by many or most in her Clan.

No; there was no slander:

Marethari: "Many of the Clan fear you'll bring back the corruption - or worse - from the mirror." When asked, she responds that it was her duty to warn them. No slander, but the hard truth as this was highly possible.

Was the Keeper daft in allowing the Demon to inhabit her? Absolutely, but she did it out of her concern and love for Merrill and her people. And ironically, the pride and love of her people was also the source of Merrill's motive and failures.

 

Yeah, my final opinion is that Merrill and Marethari are equaly at fault.

[dragonflight288]

Yes; it was a self-exile, but one supported by many or most in her Clan.

No; there was no slander:

Marethari: "Many of the Clan fear you'll bring back the corruption - or worse - from the mirror." When asked, she responds that it was her duty to warn them. No slander, but the hard truth as this was highly possible.

Was the Keeper daft in allowing the Demon to inhabit her? Absolutely, but she did it out of her concern and love for Merrill and her people. And ironically, the pride and love of her people was also the source of Merrill's motive and failures.

 

For the bold: Which is ironic in that Merethari, even back in the Dalish Origin, wanted nothing to do with the eluvian, not even research, so while Merethari would consider it a hard truth, the simple fact that Merrill had the corrupted shard that she cleansed using dalish healing magic amplified by blood magic for over seven years, and not only did she not get corrupted, neither did anyone else in the alienage, whereas elves in the ruins in Witch Hunt where the original eluvian shards are did end up corrupted, shows that Merethari is wrong. 

 

I'm not saying Merethari didn't have the best of intentions, because she did, but she deliberately kept herself ignorant out of fear of the taint. She was too proud to think she could be wrong about the eluvians, and Merrill had her own share of pride, but she has become a world authority on eluvians. The eluvian in her house is one she's building from scratch, which Gaider confirmed. Merrill isn't working with the same eluvian that Merethari is so scared of. 

 

And besides, it's not like the mirror brought the taint in the middle of a blight, more likely the darkspawn explored the area, and by virtue of their presence, corrupted everything they came in contact with, including the very powerful magical mirror. It's established from multiple sources that the darkspawn taint everything simply by being there.

 

For the italic: No arguments about their mutual pride. The whole situation could've been resolved if they both had less pride and greater willingness to actually listen to the other. Thing is, I don't think Merrill actually failed her clan as she did leave of her own volition to keep her clan safe should anything go wrong to study and build an ancient elven artifact, that if properly utilized, at least as the communication device Tevinter was only able to use them for, it would be too dang useful to give up.

 

All this is strictly my opinion, but I hold Merrill as less to blame than Merethari and the clan for what culminated in Act 3. 

[Elhanan]

For the bold: Which is ironic in that Merethari, even back in the Dalish Origin, wanted nothing to do with the eluvian, not even research, so while Merethari would consider it a hard truth, the simple fact that Merrill had the corrupted shard that she cleansed using dalish healing magic amplified by blood magic for over seven years, and not only did she not get corrupted, neither did anyone else in the alienage, whereas elves in the ruins in Witch Hunt where the original eluvian shards are did end up corrupted, shows that Merethari is wrong....

Tamlen indicated the truth; Merrill had a guess and fond wishes. Her obsession to complete the Mirror against all mortal advice to the contrary may indicate that the shard had a corrupting influence over her. The Alienage had a greater problem with Abominations and Blood Magic during that time; another possible indicator. And quarantine is a solid strategy when dealing with a communicable disease, so Marethari was correct in wanting nothing to do with the Eluvian. And when it apparently takes Blood magic and demons to aid in 'purifying' a busted mirror, this may illustrate that something is amiss.

For me, Merrill placed her desire for knowledge and pride for the Dalish over safety. While Marethari was wrong in her own choices, they would not have been made had Merrill simply left it all alone.

[MWImexico]

Yeah, I would have totally supported Merrill if she had given me the impression that she knew what she was doing. She brought the Eluvian in the Alienage and her sole explanation was "don't worry, everything is under control".Well, if she says so.
Also, I think that, if she had left her clan only to protect them, she shouldn't have go to the Alienage. Unless she doesn't care about the City Elves' safety the same way she cares about the Dalish? But I don't think so, she rather gave me the well-intentioned and innocent-blind vibe so I don't think that was her motivation. I think she left because she strongly disagreed with Marethari (and basically all of her clan). I suppose it's difficult to work on a project if everyone around you object. Also, perhaps she had been given an ultimatum : stay and stop your research or go.
Still, that doesn't mean that her research were riskless and that she was right to pursue them in the Alienage.

I have never romanced her so it's easier for me to rival her. I suppose that if I was romantically attracted to her, I would have probably chosen the friendship path with the rationalisation that Hawke would always stay close to keep an eye on her, to protect her and the people around.

But even on the rivalry path, that's basically how I feel whenever Hawke take responsibility for her (to avoid the butchering of her clan). Unless that this time I'm not so happy about the situation and feel cornered with the sole option to "adopt" the little Merril and take the responsability of her futur actions.

[dragonflight288]

Tamlen indicated the truth; Merrill had a guess and fond wishes. Her obsession to complete the Mirror against all mortal advice to the contrary may indicate that the shard had a corrupting influence over her. The Alienage had a greater problem with Abominations and Blood Magic during that time; another possible indicator. And quarantine is a solid strategy when dealing with a communicable disease, so Marethari was correct in wanting nothing to do with the Eluvian. And when it apparently takes Blood magic and demons to aid in 'purifying' a busted mirror, this may illustrate that something is amiss.

For me, Merrill placed her desire for knowledge and pride for the Dalish over safety. While Marethari was wrong in her own choices, they would not have been made had Merrill simply left it all alone.

 

Tamlen? All he did was look into the mirror and see a city that was underground. Then there's a flash of light, you wake up outside of the cave momentarily and see Duncan, taken back to the camp and treated, and Tamlen is missing. 

 

How does Tamlen indicate the truth? Maybe he saw Bownammar or something, or saw through another eluvian, maybe Cadash Thaig where the elves of Arlathan fled to the dwarves for shelter, and accidentally created a portal for the darkspawn to come through and you were subjected to the taint that way?

 

Could you explain to me, truly, where the truth is indicated at all? And bear in mind you have to work with Morrigan using her eluvian as a portal to go to a place beyond the Fade and the Masked Emperor's use of eluvians. 

[Elhanan]

Perhaps the Shriek we are able to see later at Camp gives some small insight to what occurred; did for me, at least. Plus the spirited conversations held at The Guantlet and in Merrill's battle in DA2.

Basically, becoming a Darkspawn is bad, as are Demons.

[TEWR]

Perhaps the Shriek we are able to see later at Camp gives some small insight to what occurred; did for me, at least. Plus the spirited conversations held at The Guantlet and in Merrill's battle in DA2.

Basically, becoming a Darkspawn is bad, as are Demons.

 

That... doesn't make a lick of sense. One, despite being labeled "Tormented Shriek" Tamlen's a ghoul. A ghoul is a person who has been subjected to the Darkspawn taint and left untreated. In a sense, all the Wardens happen to be are higher functioning ghouls.

 

The conversation in the Gauntlet really doesn't matter. It's a projection based on the Warden's memories. At best, it's a personal image designed to let them overcome any guilt they may still have left.

 

And the "conversations" in Merrill's battle happen to be the Pride Demon trying to screw with her head.

[dragonflight288]

Perhaps the Shriek we are able to see later at Camp gives some small insight to what occurred; did for me, at least. Plus the spirited conversations held at The Guantlet and in Merrill's battle in DA2.

Basically, becoming a Darkspawn is bad, as are Demons.

 

 

And yet Morrigan went through her eluvian, and is back in Inquisition and is not a darkspawn. So I'm not entirely sure what your point is. 

[TEWR]

Yeah, I would have totally supported Merrill if she had given me the impression that she knew what she was doing. She brought the Eluvian in the Alienage and her sole explanation was "don't worry, everything is under control".Well, if she says so.
Also, I think that, if she had left her clan only to protect them, she shouldn't have go to the Alienage. Unless she doesn't care about the City Elves' safety the same way she cares about the Dalish?

But even on the rivalry path, that's basically how I feel whenever Hawke take responsibility for her (to avoid the butchering of her clan). Unless that this time I'm not so happy about the situation and feel cornered with the sole option to "adopt" the little Merril and take the responsability of her futur actions.

 

She actually ends up giving you sufficient information to explain how the Eluvian is safe. And the whole reason she went to the Alienage was because alone, she'd be easy prey for anyone (bandits or Templars) but in the Alienage she can blend in with the other Elves and just be one more face among the faceless.

 

I'll never Rival her. It ends up causing her to be unable to trust anyone, per its description. That's a rather dangerous mindset. Certainly not healthy.

 

And yet Morrigan went through her eluvian, and is back in Inquisition and is not a darkspawn. So I'm not entirely sure what your point is. 

 

Indeed. Morrigan tells us the Eluvians go to a place beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade and we see in the Masked Empire how they're not dangerous (and in fact are very useful beyond being fancy telephones and a means to get around).

[Elhanan]

Morrigan is an amber-eyed mage with an Abomination for a Mother, knows enough about Blood magic to utilize the Dark Ritual, and may have an Old God inside her. Tamlen was a rather standard Dalish Elf; the kind that Marethari was trying to protect.

And notice the Is and Was usage; truth enough for me.

[TEWR]

Morrigan tells you Flemeth is neither human, Demon, or Abomination and she doesn't know what she is. Flemeth even tells you that Morrigan is unsure of what to make of her (Flemeth), whether she's enemy or friend.

 

I don't see how her upbringing or her knowledge of magic makes her word particularly bad when this is an arcane artifact we're dealing with and she managed to actually study the Eluvians herself, by way of a book devoted entirely to them (all while raising a kid at that, which is impressive). She even says that getting as far she did with the one we see was difficult.

 

She's studied the Eluvians, much like Merrill has. I see no reason to doubt their word and trust in the rantings of an old hag who never once wanted to pick up even a scrap of lore related to them.

[Elhanan]

You misunderstand. Morrigan is all of the above, yet utilizes a lot of care, time, and caution in dealing with the Artifact. Merrill is a fine Mage, but not as gifted or unique as Flemeth's daughter/ clone/ simulacrum/ whatever.

Merrill was foolish to play with fire and fuel at the same time, so to speak; especially when the Clan were dwelling in a hazardous area like Sundermount and Kirkwall.

[MWImexico]

She actually ends up giving you sufficient information to explain how the Eluvian is safe. And the whole reason she went to the Alienage was because alone, she'd be easy prey for anyone (bandits or Templars) but in the Alienage she can blend in with the other Elves and just be one more face among the faceless.

 

I'll never Rival her. It ends up causing her to be unable to trust anyone, per its description. That's a rather dangerous mindset. Certainly not healthy.

 

 

Indeed. Morrigan tells us the Eluvians go to a place beyond Thedas and beyond the Fade and we see in the Masked Empire how they're not dangerous (and in fact are very useful beyond being fancy telephones and a means to get around).

 

What do you mean? When? Are you talking about the moment she explains she purified the eluvian with blood magic (following the advices of a Demon)? I hardly call that sufficient. But in the end, was her Eluvian safe? How could you be so sure, after all we don't know, she couldn't fix it. Also, at that time she didn't know that the Eluvians are teleporting devices, that on itself puts the accent on the impression that she didn't knew exactly what she was doing.

Also, I know well why she choosed to go to the Alienage, I think you are missing my point here. She had the choice and she choosed : she put her goal and her researches on the eluvian before the safety of the City Elves. Though, maybe she didn't realised that at that moment, cause I honnestly think she meant well, but maybe she was so sure of herself to the point that she did not consider that her experience could go wrong.

I always rivals her yet I think she has a lot of reasons to trust Hawke in my playtroughs. Is it emotionaly unhealthy to refuse to help someone if you don't agree with that person?

[TEWR]

What do you mean? When? Are you talking about the moment she explains she purified the eluvian with blood magic (following the advices of a Demon)? I hardly call that sufficient. But in the end, was her Eluvian safe? How could you be so sure, after all we don't know, she couldn't fix it. Also, at that time she didn't know that the Eluvians are teleporting devices, that on itself puts the accent on the feeling that she didn't know exactly what she was doing.

Also, I know well why she choosed to go to the Alienage, I think you are missing my point here. She had the choice and she choosed : she put her goal and her researches on the eluvian before the safety of the City Elves. Though, maybe she didn't realised that at that moment, cause I honnestly think she meant well, but maybe she was so sure of herself to the point that she did not consider that her experience could go wrong.

I always rivals her yet I think she has a lot of reasons to trust Hawke in my playtroughs. Is it emotionaly unhealthy to refuse to help someone if you don't agree with that person?

 

I've already posted it on the previous pages, talking of how it wasn't blood magic that cleansed the shard but rather Dalish healing magic taught to her by Marethari (which had an effect on a living tainted person in an unamplified state) and she used blood magic to enhance its potency. The same effects could've been received had Marethari helped her (which Merrill initially tried, but Marethari refused) or if she had buckets of lyrium at her disposal (which she did not. It's dangerous to mine for non-Dwarves, controlled by the Chantry, and the smugglers charge exorbitant fees for what they have).

 

Furthermore, she goes 7 years without being tainted, while a group of Dalish Elves that stumbled upon the ruins Mahariel explored were tainted by the remaining shards (this was 2.5 years after the Dalish story began). Even without that, she goes 3 years before Hawke even learns the thing once held the Taint.

 

Yes she does go to the Alienage and perhaps she should've contemplated that they might end up being in peril should something go wrong (though given the nature of the Alienages, something always puts them in peril). But really, that was the only place for her to study the Eluvians. Her clan would be over her shoulder, browbeating her to give things up (whether cordially a la Fenarel or in a hostile tone like some other Elves), and the Circle certainly wouldn't let her explore that knowledge.

 

Not Kirkwall's at any rate. Kirkwall's Circle took away the Mages' staves and tomes, the very tools they need to study magic.

 

I don't necessarily think one needs to agree with Merrill simply to be her friend, particularly since you can tell her how what she's doing is dangerous and still be her friend. Rivaling the companions, save for Sebastian, isn't really being friends with them. It's at best an Enemy Mine situation that persists for the entire course of the game and at worst Teeth-Clenched Teamwork.

 

Hawke may consider them friends (which is dubious at best because I don't think there were actual moments where he says that on the Rival path) but they sure as hell don't reciprocate the feeling.

 

I just don't particularly see Rivaling her as a good thing. Particularly when, after her entire clan completely ostracizes her in Act 2 and actively reviles her, she has no means to repair the Eluvian, and ends up being unable to trust the one person she thought might understand her predicament (Hawke, who has lost much in his life) said Hawke then brings her to bed after she's angry and confused and definitely in shock and grief.

 

Personal opinion, but it does seem rather manipulative.

[gottaloveme]

Someone in 2 mentions about saving lives by giving up their own (Elthina maybe??) and this is what Marethari is doing. A tad needlessly messianic. In doing this she is saving the clan as well as Merrill by not letting the demon through to claim Merrill and hurt the tribe. Big Risk however.

 

I also always get the feeling (headcanon) that there is more than just taint to worry about in DAO for Tamlen and DME warden. One mirror chock full of Tevinter badness and corruption and black cities.

 

In both cases Merrill and Marethari deplore the actions - understand how the reasoning led to the actions

[MWImexico]

1 ) I've already posted it on the previous pages, talking of how it wasn't blood magic that cleansed the shard but rather Dalish healing magic taught to her by Marethari (which had an effect on a living tainted person in an unamplified state) and she used blood magic to enhance its potency. The same effects could've been received had Marethari helped her (which Merrill initially tried, but Marethari refused) or if she had buckets of lyrium at her disposal (which she did not. It's dangerous to mine for non-Dwarves, controlled by the Chantry, and the smugglers charge exorbitant fees for what they have).

 

...

2)Yes she does go to the Alienage and perhaps she should've contemplated that they might end up being in peril should something go wrong (though given the nature of the Alienages, something always puts them in peril). But really, that was the only place for her to study the Eluvians. Her clan would be over her shoulder, browbeating her to give things up (whether cordially a la Fenarel or in a hostile tone like some other Elves), and the Circle certainly wouldn't let her explore that knowledge.

 

...

 

3)I don't necessarily think one needs to agree with Merrill simply to be her friend, particularly since you can tell her how what she's doing is dangerous and still be her friend. Rivaling the companions, save for Sebastian, isn't really being friends with them. It's at best an Enemy Mine situation that persists for the entire course of the game and at worst Teeth-Clenched Teamwork.

 

Hawke may consider them friends (which is dubious at best because I don't think there were actual moments where he says that on the Rival path) but they sure as hell don't reciprocate the feeling.

 

I just don't particularly see Rivaling her as a good thing. Particularly when, after her entire clan completely ostracizes her in Act 2 and actively reviles her, she has no means to repair the Eluvian, and ends up being unable to trust the one person she thought might understand her predicament (Hawke, who has lost much in his life) said Hawke then brings her to bed after she's angry and confused and definitely in shock and grief.

 

Personal opinion, but it does seem rather manipulative.

 

1) Mmmh, are you sure about that or is it only a possible interpretation? Maybe I missed something in the dialogues or the codex?

2) Poor city elves, nobody cares about them, even the Dalish XD

3) Well technically I wasn't trying to be her friend, and I don't care if she dislikes me in return (again, that's her choice). All I wanted was to prevent her from acting in an inconsiderate way. Also, as I said before, I never romanced her so I still don't see the problem here.

[TEWR]

1) Quite sure. This is all based on dialogue received in the Dalish Elf origin. If Mahariel asks Marethari a certain question (related to either Tamlen or the sickness. I can't recall) she says that Merrill knows some of Marethari's same magic spells and that this will help keep them feeling well until they can come back to the clan. Merrill even starts off with a heal spell. It's also observed that Mahariel was out cold for 3 days before waking up and the magic did weaken it, per Duncan. And of course, Merrill states she could've achieved the same result if she had lyrium lying about in DAII.

 

2) The only thing I wish I could do is tell Merrill I support both her endeavor to finish the Eluvian at the end of her quest and tell her to help the Elves of the Alienage. I can at least headcanon that's what Hawke does.

 

3) True, you did say that. So the romance bit doesn't really apply to you.

[MWImexico]

... And of course, Merrill states she could've achieved the same result if she had lyrium lying about in DAII.

 

Does she? Maybe I picked other dialogues options because I don't remember she ever stated that. Anyway, you are confirming that she did use blood magic to clean the mirror, about that we agree.

As I said before, my concern about her is that I don't trust the quality of her judgement. I suspect she don't fully understand what she's messing with and even though she thinks that to repair the Eluvian is worth the risks, I can help but think that the method she used is wrong (Audacity).

[TEWR]

Well... yes and no, I'm confirming she used blood to amplify a particular spell. That technically does fall under the purview of blood magic, but it would be false to reduce it to just blood magic and ignore the Dalish healing spell she knew.

 

And yes, she does. I believe it's from an information probing choice rather then the Diplomatic/Witty/Aggressive choices. Meaning the sidebar.

 

Of course, don't you think it's a bit audacious on your part to tell Merrill what's right and wrong and what's safe and unsafe on a subject you know far less about then she?

 

I think in such endeavors, it's more important to be supportive of the one who knows more... while at the same time guiding them and mentoring them to understand that they cannot shoulder the weight of the world alone and that there are other people they can turn to.

[MWImexico]

Audacious, lol no. I think you meant presumptuous but I can be wrong. Either way, I was not talking about the quality of her knowledge about the Dalish lore or magic, I was talking about the quality of her judgement/ discernment. Of course I'm not an expert on the matter but you neither, I suspect

Also, the problem is that she didn't convinced me that she actually knows alot about the Eluvian, more specifically. After the Witch hunt and the DAO Dalish origin I actually felt I knew more about the Eluvian than her while playing.

[Elhanan]

Merrill uses Blood Magic to ascend the mountain right after Hawke meets her for the first time. It does not matter if it were used with other magics, to try and amplify them; it apparently shines a beacon to the Fade from potential victims. Merrill endangers herself, and all those around her.

 

And based solely on the frequency of Demons, Abominations, etc in the area, I believe caution, safety, and not using Blood Magic might be a highly recommended advice.

[MagicalMaster]

Does she? Maybe I picked other dialogues options because I don't remember she ever stated that.

 

She does, says something about how if she had piles of lyrium lying around that she would have used that instead...but she didn't.