100 réponses à ce sujet

[Ashevajak]

It's sub-optimal in some situations against the Collectors, sure.  I don't think anyone can seriously argue otherwise.

 

But sub-optimal =/= terrible. 

[Terminator Force]

If it is your favorite SMG and you think it is awful versus the Collectors, then use a pistol or shotgun.

 

I try to mix things up with the weapons I use. The weapon challenges I find great for helping me keep mixing things up at a very fast rate. Plus I usually don't like backups. And just because I think the SMG suffers against the Collectors, don't mean I'm not going to be using it against them either. I just wanted to hear what some of the experts here thought on my assumption and the info I brought up? Though seems only you went in really great depth, like always, in backing up my assumption. And well, what you've posted here is really all I needed to hear. I'm just going to walk away from this topic. As I don't think anything useful will mentioned here? Unless I see your name as last post.

[JRandall0308]

One of my favorite masochistic self imposed challenges in ME2 was an Insanity playthrough using only pistols on the Soldier (no power spamming to get around the pistol's limitations).

In a similar vein, I would love to see someone do ME3MP guides for how to succeed with weapons platform classes using stuff like the Shuriken, Predator, Scimitar, etc.

[FullSpe3D]

Sinful, your OP doesn't make any sense. I drank a couple beers last night and read it and it didn't make sense. I wake up this morning and read it sober, it still doesn't make sense...

If you've got a question to ask then ask it, tell us what consumables you're using and where you're struggling, but cut down on the rambling man...

 Try reading some of his posts in a Salarian voice. I find I can actually understand some of them better that way.

[jamdjedi]

It's my favourite SMG by far too, but that's not the topic.

Agreed the topic is ' I can't use the CSMG vs Collectors' that's like saying 'my umbrella only works when it rains on Tuesdays '.

Both are completely illogical

[SilentStep79]

First page of this thread was worth the occasional visit to the MP boards.

 

Excellent work OP.

[Pearl (rip bioware)]

It's really that simple to figure out, regardless of how bad my English may be.

Listen to yourself, you're indoctrinated.

If bad, your english is hard for others to understand you it will be.

[Deerber]

 

Haven't read anything here, but something tells me this is relevant:

 

 

[me0120]

In a similar vein, I would love to see someone do ME3MP guides for how to succeed with weapons platform classes using stuff like the Shuriken, Predator, Scimitar, etc.

Get headshots.

/guide

[LemurFromTheId]

This is pretty simple.  You don't get to use the standard fire->hitscan power shenanigans that is the typical CSMG style against a Praetorian because the bubble will go up.  If you aren't using powers against it then you get to wait for recharge without power use.  When you do that the CSMG dps tanks.

 

The Praetorian is the worst enemy in the game to have to use a CSMG against because the HP pools are so large and you don't get to supplement damage from the CSMG with powers except with a few special case powers.  It has absolutely nothing to do with how well you can press a button for Incinerate.

 

This isn't really as big of a problem as you make it out to be. Why?

 

1) Praetorians rarely come alone. You can shoot at the Praetorian and cast powers on other target, thus maximizing your DPS. Yeah, it'd be better if you could concentrate on one enemy at a time, but the DPS is what ultimately matters.

 

2) Praetorians are usually easy to get to land so you can use your powers on them, especially when they come alone. By being proactive about it you really shouldn't miss multiple casts.

 

3) If the Praetorian comes alone and you can't get close to force it to land, does it really matter if it takes a couple more seconds to kill it?

[capn233]

Once you open the pandora's box of multiple targets, you have to wonder why you are using the CSMG at all.  It is an anti-armor weapon that is best against mid-tier armor (which is not a target on Collectors).  The CSMG does not have good health DPS, it does not have good barrier DPS, and it doesn't have good shield DPS.

 

The entire point is that CSMG gets overrated on the magic armor DPS number, but it is not practically applied to a target like the Praetorian.  So why not either use something with superior practical / sustained armor DPS, or something that is superior against mooks and barriers?  If you start into "I don't care if it takes longer to kill a target" the whole discussion is moot, and you can even justify using the Shuriken in that case.

 

If I want to have a gun with ok damage that is light, there are at least 10 other weapons that work at least as well if not better than the CSMG and that fit this criteria.

[LemurFromTheId]

Once you open the pandora's box of multiple targets, you have to wonder why you are using the CSMG at all.  It is an anti-armor weapon that is best against mid-tier armor (which is not a target on Collectors).  The CSMG does not have good health DPS, it does not have good barrier DPS, and it doesn't have good shield DPS.

 

The entire point is that CSMG gets overrated on the magic armor DPS number, but it is not practically applied to a target like the Praetorian.  So why not either use something with superior practical / sustained armor DPS, or something that is superior against mooks and barriers?  If you start into "I don't care if it takes longer to kill a target" the whole discussion is moot, and you can even justify using the Shuriken in that case.

 

If I want to have a gun with ok damage that is light, there are at least 10 other weapons that work at least as well if not better than the CSMG and that fit this criteria.

 

The thing about CSMG is that you can spam your powers pretty much as much as you want without lowering the weapon's sustained DPS. With every other weapon you have to match your cooldowns to your reload cycle and use tricks like reload hiding and reload canceling, and while that goes quite far, it never really works perfectly. That is what makes CSMG competitive despite its underwhelming numbers: you get to squeeze everything out of your powers and the weapon.

[capn233]

You don't have the single clip DPS while casting.  Each time you cast the CSMG does 0 damage and as such it lowers the applied DPS.  It will be higher than the spreadsheet "sustained" number, but it will certainly be lower than the single clip number, which is what everyone seems to want to benchmark against other weapons for the sake of armor especially.

 

On thermal clip weapons you can cast to reload cancel.  That does indeed mean that you aren't using single clip dps numbers for high HP enemies, but several of them have better sustained armor DPS than the CSMG anyway.

 

Of course the problem is even less acute for the semi-autos that can one-shot mooks since you don't have to dick around with more than 1 or 2 shots on the mooks, and you can shoot one, cast at someone else to your heart's content.

[megabeast37215]

I personally don't feel the CSMG has poor performance vs health.. because all of our ammo powers except Cryo/Explosive do bonus health damage. Combined with headshots.. health targets go down quickly. I do agree that it can lack vs shields, especially for a biotic using Warp ammo.. but so what? You can't have top notch performance vs every protection type unless you pack an Acolyte and an anti armor sidearm with appropriate ammo. I like the Claymore with Disruptor ammo vs mooks but it sucks ass vs bosses.. and sometimes Claymore with AP ammo will leave shielded mooks alive if the headshot isn't perfect, but it certainly wrecks bosses more.

Saying that the CSMG is mediocre bc it doesn't perform well vs certain defenses is pointless. Only the heaviest hitting weapons are going to do great vs all defenses bc of raw damage.. everything else needs appropriate ammo powers. So you tailor your CSMG around your kit. If your kit has good anti shield powers, go with anti armor ammo.. if the kit is good vs armor.. go anti shield ammo. It's not rocket science. There is nothing wrong with Disruptor IV ammo on the CSMG.

[LemurFromTheId]

You don't have the single clip DPS while casting.  Each time you cast the CSMG does 0 damage and as such it lowers the applied DPS.  It will be higher than the spreadsheet "sustained" number, but it will certainly be lower than the single clip number, which is what everyone seems to want to benchmark against other weapons for the sake of armor especially.

 

On thermal clip weapons you can cast to reload cancel.  That does indeed mean that you aren't using single clip dps numbers for high HP enemies, but several of them have better sustained armor DPS than the CSMG anyway.

 

Of course the problem is even less acute for the semi-autos that can one-shot mooks since you don't have to dick around with more than 1 or 2 shots on the mooks, and you can shoot one, cast at someone else to your heart's content.

 

Yeah, CSMG does 0 damage when casting, but it regens ammo while casting, unlike other weapons. Sustained DPS accounts for the time spent regenerating ammo and doing 0 damage. What's the problem here?

 

And yes, with thermal clip weapons you can cast to reload cancel. This means you get the full RC'd sustained DPS out of the weapon - but then you can only cast while reloading. With non-CSMG weapons you always have to compromise between getting full damage out of your powers and getting full damage out of your weapon. With CSMG you can use both at the same time to their full potential.

[capn233]

Yeah, CSMG does 0 damage when casting, but it regens ammo while casting, unlike other weapons. Sustained DPS accounts for the time spent regenerating ammo and doing 0 damage. What's the problem here?

 

And yes, with thermal clip weapons you can cast to reload cancel. This means you get the full RC'd sustained DPS out of the weapon - but then you can only cast while reloading. With non-CSMG weapons you always have to compromise between getting full damage out of your powers and getting full damage out of your weapon. With CSMG you can use both at the same time to their full potential.

 

Sustained is low ball on the CSMG.  A sustainable stat for DPS is more like 430 for health, shields, and barriers, and 641 for armor.  That is with extended mag anyway, since its regen rate depends on total capacity.

 

In any event, if you are going with my sustainable DPS, that means you are firing for 1.65s followed by 1s of regen.  That incidentally makes a cycle of 2.65s which isn't too far out of line with recharge speed on the QFE for Incinerate with +200% PRS (2.46).  If you want to cut your burst length slightly you can, and the regen will not take as long.  But getting to the point, if I instead go Paladin X then I am at +190%, which means a couple of different things.  First and foremost it means that you really aren't spamming incinerate more with the CSMG since you don't have much better recharge anyway.  To be precise, Paladin firing cycle is with capacity of 3 is 2.64s until reload cancel.  So this is not going to be much of a difference in practical Incinerate dps.  The other is that I have a weapon that one and two shots Collector mooks.  Which is a huge step forward from CSMG.  You will have a little less weapon armor DPS though, but you will have more than made up for that against mooks.  And as it turns out Paladin also primes for combos better than the CSMG, if you are into that too.

 

The absurd semi-auto example is of course the Arc Pistol, which does essentially CSMG burst armor DPS if you charge it every shot, and you get to cast wherever you want.

 

Going the opposite direction, if you want the absurd automatic it would be Hurricane.  Again, it practically doesn't matter since sustained armor DPS is better than CSMG's burst armor DPS.

[megabeast37215]

The Paladin can miss though (and that's even more possible bc reticle bloom) missing isn't a big issue with full auto weapons bc you can just keep laying on the trigger and adjust. I'm still not seeing this utter lack of CSMG performance vs health. I feel that argument is weak.. bc of ammo consumables, amps and (forgiving) headshots.

[Papa5murf]

Going the opposite direction, if you want the absurd automatic it would be Hurricane.  Again, it practically doesn't matter since sustained armor DPS is better than CSMG's burst armor DPS.

 

I like how you try to compare DPS without factoring in the weakness of the Hurricane, which is in the recoil. Try headshotting a bunch of mooks at distance with the Hurricane. Good luck with that.

With the CSMG, it's a piece of cake.

 

This is the problem with all these weapon arguments - you can't argue it through just one stat, you need to take all the factors into account if you want the TRUE picture, otherwise it doesn't mean anything...

[capn233]

I like how you try to compare DPS without factoring in the weakness of the Hurricane, which is in the recoil. Try headshotting a bunch of mooks at distance with the Hurricane. Good luck with that.

With the CSMG, it's a piece of cake.

 

This is the problem with all these weapon arguments - you can't argue it through just one stat, you need to take all the factors into account if you want the TRUE picture, otherwise it doesn't mean anything...

 

I don't need to factor in the recoil difference since linear vertical recoil is not a big deal whatsoever, and it certainly is not a big deal against armored Collector targets.

 

I would also be remiss if I did not point out that you are underestimating the magnitude of the disparity between CSMG and Hurricane damage against health, shields and barriers.  We are talking about a weapon which does nearly double the damage to each of those hp pools.  The CSMG is also not a paragon of accuracy so to claim that you actually hit all your shots at range more than twice as often as the Hurricane seems spurious to me.  And if recoil is such a problem for you, go into cover for ranged targets to eliminate the recoil and accuracy penalty.

 

Or you can take the Paladin and Hurricane (or Punisher) and have a solution for everything with minimal change to CD.

[Papa5murf]

You may certainly point out that i may be underestimating the magnitude of the disparity between CSMG and Hurricane damage, as long as i point out in return that i think you are underestimating how bad the recoil on the Hurricane is for the majority of players...

[NuclearTech76]

You may certainly point out that i may be underestimating the magnitude of the disparity between CSMG and Hurricane damage, as long as i point out in return that i think you are underestimating how bad the recoil on the Hurricane is for the majority of players...

On console it's manageable until you're trying to put all those shots on a target's head then transition to the next target's head. Accuracy and target transition in game definitely go to the CSMG for me anyways. It does have slight recoil but very manageable in comparison to the Hurricane. It's never as easy as on paper DPS at least not for me personally. Maybe it's much easier to compensate for the recoil on PC.

[Deerber]

BlablablaNumbers BlablablaDPS...

 

 

BOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!
 

 

/Deerber reloads the Claymoar

[robarcool]

BlablablaNumbers BlablablaDPS...

 

 

BOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!
 

 

/Deerber reloads the Shuriken

Fixed?

[IIFlash]

In a similar vein, I would love to see someone do ME3MP guides for how to succeed with weapons platform classes using stuff like the Shuriken, Predator, Scimitar, etc.

Get headshots.

/guide

 

And hope the enemy is dead before you run out of ammo

[Pearl (rip bioware)]

Maybe it's much easier to compensate for the recoil on PC.

It definitely is. More precise controls are part of it, but the real key is the look sensitivity being higher than "molasses rolling uphill"