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[MassivelyEffective0730]

The last dialogue option in the post-Haestrom debriefing, before Jacob mentions EDI. Shepard can encourage her to look around.

 

I don't really see how that's carte blanch telling her to study the Normandy systems and copy them for use.

 

Well, it doesn't really follow that Tali would be able to get the tech if she wasn't on the Normandy in ME2 either. Because if she's not, then she isn't going to be able to get the Thanix information to the Quarians. I'd say that it would have to be the Turians that gave them said information on the SR1.

[Obadiah]

When Tali "spied" on the Normandy, she probably didn't download the schematics or the specs for the ship, she just looked, observed, and studied the underlying designs and technology, and then reverse engineered or designed her own (or helped the Quarians design their own) version.

[Iakus]

She wasn't really right. The Alliance would never have been able to handle things on its own, and had to bet everything on their allies staying allies.

I'm also still a little bit confused as to why you're so adamant that she doesn't even have the tiniest amount of speciesism.

She was right because the Alliance's allies didn't stay allies.  They abandoned humanity (and everyone else) to try and save themselves.  Shepard had to jump through numerous hoops to convince them to stand together.

 

This is not to say there aren't problems out there which are simply too big to handle alone.  But the crisis in ME3 proved Ash's point that when push came to shove, the turians would look to save the turians first, the asari will look to the asari, the krogan will look after the krogan first, etc.

 

It's simply a survival instinct.  It may not be the correct instinct for the situation (as the reapers were more than capable of dealing with the galaxy piecemeal), but it's a natural response to save your own species and ensure it continues.  

 

And what I am adamant about is that while Ash is firmly, perhaps even fanatically loyal to the Alliance, she is no more speciest than any other human.  And less than some.  For years I've been listening to people calling her a racist, a bigot,  and worse because they were determined to think the worst of her.

[Xilizhra]

She was right because the Alliance's allies didn't stay allies.  They abandoned humanity (and everyone else) to try and save themselves.  Shepard had to jump through numerous hoops to convince them to stand together.

 

This is not to say there aren't problems out there which are simply too big to handle alone.  But the crisis in ME3 proved Ash's point that when push came to shove, the turians would look to save the turians first, the asari will look to the asari, the krogan will look after the krogan first, etc.

Which would be the case for any society in the history of ever. If that was literally all she was saying, it would be beyond pointless. She was trying to make a point that the Alliance shouldn't integrate too closely with the galactic community so as to prevent the sort of interdependence that lead to things like the turians handling general military defense for everyone in terms of galactic war... which they were still necessary for anyway, among other things, so the entire thing falls flat.

 

 

And what I am adamant about is that while Ash is firmly, perhaps even fanatically loyal to the Alliance, she is no more speciest than any other human.  And less than some.  For years I've been listening to people calling her a racist, a bigot,  and worse because they were determined to think the worst of her.

Do not presume anything about my Shepard, who does not display any of the traits I've criticized in Ashley. Nor does Kaidan, and nor does Adams, for instance. Nor Jack, I think. Anderson is a maybe. Kasumi shows no signs of it. And so on.

[Iakus]

Which would be the case for any society in the history of ever. If that was literally all she was saying, it would be beyond pointless. She was trying to make a point that the Alliance shouldn't integrate too closely with the galactic community so as to prevent the sort of interdependence that lead to things like the turians handling general military defense for everyone in terms of galactic war... which they were still necessary for anyway, among other things, so the entire thing falls flat.

 

 

Yes!  That's exactly the point she was making!  And yes, the Alliance should not grow too dependent on the Council races and should, when necessary be able to stand independently.  Having them standing at your side is great, but the Alliance should be ready to go it alone when necessary.

 

Unfortunately, the point seems to have been completely missed by a lot of people.

 

 

 

Do not presume anything about my Shepard, who does not display any of the traits I've criticized in Ashley. Nor does Kaidan, and nor does Adams, for instance. Nor Jack, I think. Anderson is a maybe. Kasumi shows no signs of it. And so on.

 

I didn't?  

 

I didn't even mention any specific character.  But play the game and you'll see them.  I can rattle off a few if you'd like.

[Xilizhra]

Yes!  That's exactly the point she was making!  And yes, the Alliance should not grow too dependent on the Council races and should, when necessary be able to stand independently.  Having them standing at your side is great, but the Alliance should be ready to go it alone when necessary.

 

Unfortunately, the point seems to have been completely missed by a lot of people.

But... they never would have done that, because the Alliance behaves exactly the same way as the aliens she was decrying... why does this dialogue even exist? Along with that dog/bear analogy, it's like Chris l'Etoile deliberately wrote things in solely so that they would be misinterpreted.

 

 

I didn't?  

 

I didn't even mention any specific character.  But play the game and you'll see them.  I can rattle off a few if you'd like.

You said "any other human." Which includes my Shepard, who is human. And please, do rattle.

[Steelcan]

Do not presume anything about my Shepard, who does not display any of the traits I've criticized in Ashley. Nor does Kaidan, and nor does Adams, for instance. Nor Jack, I think. Anderson is a maybe. Kasumi shows no signs of it. And so on.

Your SHepard equated the suffering of the krogan under the genophage to the FCW, seems kinda racist to me in a  "your suffering isn't as bad as ours"

[Xilizhra]

Your SHepard equated the suffering of the krogan under the genophage to the FCW, seems kinda racist to me in a  "your suffering isn't as bad as ours"

An error of ignorance that was immediately admitted.

[Obadiah]

Ah, I see this thread has turned into a game of gotcha. You humans need to lighten up.

[Iakus]

But... they never would have done that, because the Alliance behaves exactly the same way as the aliens she was decrying... why does this dialogue even exist? Along with that dog/bear analogy, it's like Chris l'Etoile deliberately wrote things in solely so that they would be misinterpreted.

 

 

Yes.  Humans do the same thing.  Ash even admits it, calling it "'human' nature"  It's not a bad thing.  It's not a good thing.  It's just survival.  She brings it up as a warning against complacency, in believing that someone will always be there to catch you if you fall.  It won't always be the case, because other people have their own problems as well, and can't/won't always be there to help you deal with yours.  Their priorities=/=your priorities

 

 

 

You said "any other human." Which includes my Shepard, who is human. And please, do rattle.

 

Joker, Pressly, Kai Leng, Saracino, Mikhailovich.  Those are just off the top of my head, and without even looking at the EU.

 

Your Shepard may be pure as the driven snow, thus that doesn't mean Ash is particularly sullied.

[Xilizhra]

Yes.  Humans do the same thing.  Ash even admits it, calling it "'human' nature"  It's not a bad thing.  It's not a good thing.  It's just survival.  She brings it up as a warning against complacency, in believing that someone will always be there to catch you if you fall.  It won't always be the case, because other people have their own problems as well, and can't/won't always be there to help you deal with yours.  Their priorities=/=your priorities

But... gah, I don't have much faith in him as a writer. None of this was handled well if his intention was innocent.

 

 

Joker, Pressly, Kai Leng, Saracino, Mikhailovich.  Those are just off the top of my head, and without even looking at the EU.

 

Your Shepard may be pure as the driven snow, thus that doesn't mean Ash is particularly sullied.

Buh... all of them are, to a greater or lesser degree, assholes. And Pressly gets over his issues (without needing Shepard to mack on him to accomplish it, note). How is that supposed to prove anything?

[Iakus]

But... gah, I don't have much faith in him as a writer. None of this was handled well if his intention was innocent.

 

::shrug::  Maybe, given how many people missed the point.  Or deliberately misread it.

 

 

 

Buh... all of them are, to a greater or lesser degree, assholes. And Pressly gets over his issues (without needing Shepard to mack on him to accomplish it, note). How is that supposed to prove anything?

 

It's supposed to demonstrate that while Ash lacks tact, she's not so bad, compared to plenty of others.

[Xilizhra]

It's supposed to demonstrate that while Ash lacks tact, she's not so bad, compared to plenty of others.

That has nothing to do with anything. My arguments for her being mildly speciesist were not predicated on how many other humans were better than she was. It's entirely possible that most humans are like that, but that does not change the fact of her speciesism.

[Iakus]

That has nothing to do with anything. My arguments for her being mildly speciesist were not predicated on how many other humans were better than she was. It's entirely possible that most humans are like that, but that does not change the fact of her speciesism.

 

Well, except for the fact that she attaches many of these qualities to human beings as well.

 

She's a cynic.  She sees the worst in pretty much everyone.

[Xilizhra]

Well, except for the fact that she attaches many of these qualities to human beings as well.

 

She's a cynic.  She sees the worst in pretty much everyone.

Except the Alliance, which she's faithful to despite the utterly insane family blacklisting they engage in.

At any rate, kindly explain "I'm no fan of aliens," and "Kiss his turian ass goodbye."

[SwobyJ]

Except the Alliance, which she's faithful to despite the utterly insane family blacklisting they engage in.

At any rate, kindly explain "I'm no fan of aliens," and "Kiss his turian ass goodbye."

 

Well it isn't like any human soldier is being recruited by the Asari military any time soon.

 

She does eventually take up the Spectre position.

 

Turians were no fans of aliens too, until...well.. not long ago, really. Plenty of outright violently speciesist turians.

[Xilizhra]

Well it isn't like any human soldier is being recruited by the Asari military any time soon.

 

She does eventually take up the Spectre position.

 

Turians were no fans of aliens too, until...well.. not long ago, really. Plenty of outright violently speciesist turians.

Actually, is that so sure? With the amount of interspecies relationships the asari engage in, there have to be plenty of non-asari citizens of the Republics.

[SwobyJ]

Actually, is that so sure? With the amount of interspecies relationships the asari engage in, there have to be plenty of non-asari citizens of the Republics.

 

I'm very sure there are a bunch of non-asari citizens of the Asari Republics.

 

I just highly doubt that the Asari commandos, units/cadres, etc, are going to take on human soldiers in their ranks.

 

Not without a lengthy naturalization and citizenship process, at least.

 

Is it eventually possible? Yeah. I used the words 'any time soon' though.

[Xilizhra]

I'm very sure there are a bunch of non-asari citizens of the Asari Republics.

 

I just highly doubt that the Asari commandos, units/cadres, etc, are going to take on human soldiers in their ranks.

 

Not without a lengthy naturalization and citizenship process, at least.

 

Is it eventually possible? Yeah. I used the words 'any time soon' though.

They've had thousands of years to adjust to non-asari living with them; I don't think it'd take that long for the human pairings to sufficiently mingle.

[SwobyJ]

They've had thousands of years to adjust to non-asari living with them; I don't think it'd take that long for the human pairings to sufficiently mingle.

 

I'm not talking about human pairings. Those are obvious.

[Xilizhra]

I'm not talking about human pairings. Those are obvious.

I know. I was referring to humans in asari militaries; certainly it'd take less long for them than it would for asari in the Alliance.

[Iakus]

Except the Alliance, which she's faithful to despite the utterly insane family blacklisting they engage in.

At any rate, kindly explain "I'm no fan of aliens," and "Kiss his turian ass goodbye."

She admits that it takes "a special kind of thickheadedness" to join up like she does. 

 

"I'm no fan of aliens"=not a xenophile.

 

"Kiss his turian @$$ goodbye"= she wants to kill a person who happens to be turian. 

 

Would it sound better if she said "Kiss his Cerberus @$$ goodbye" when referring to The Illusive Man? 

[Xilizhra]

"I'm no fan of aliens"=not a xenophile.

 

"Kiss his turian @$$ goodbye"= she wants to kill a person who happens to be turian. 

 

Would it sound better if she said "Kiss his Cerberus @$$ goodbye" when referring to The Illusive Man? 

To me, this is taking an overly literalistic approach to speech that's wholly at odds with how Ashley normally speaks. It's like claiming her line "I also play a mean game of pool" was her proudly confessing that her pool-playing style was belligerent and inconsiderate.

 

"I'm no fan of" is, more often than not, used to denote a dislike for whatever you're referring to; if she wanted to say she's not a xenophile, she'd say "I'm not a xenophile, but..." or "I haven't started kissing turians yet, but..."

As for the second statement, there's literally no reason to bring up species unless species was a factor in her anticipation of Saren's demise.

[Iakus]

 

 

Turians were no fans of aliens too, until...well.. not long ago, really. Plenty of outright violently speciesist turians.

"You humans need to learn your place"

 

Said the Council's top Spectre in full view of the Council, the human ambassador, and an unknown number of other audience members.

 

Plus it was likely recorded for posterity.

 

[Iakus]

 

"I'm no fan of" is, more often than not, used to denote a dislike for whatever you're referring to; if she wanted to say she's not a xenophile, she'd say "I'm not a xenophile, but..." or "I haven't started kissing turians yet, but..."

As for the second statement, there's literally no reason to bring up species unless species was a factor in her anticipation of Saren's demise.

Speaking just for myself, when I say "I'm no fan of X" it means it's something I don't personally care for, I fail to see the fascination with it, but I have no problem with it in general, or in other people liking it.

 

If there's something I more actively dislike, I use stronger terms than "not a fan of"

 

I will say 'I'm no fan of survival horror games"  My view of ME3 go beyond "Not a fan"