642 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Speaking just for myself, when I say "I'm no fan of X" it means it's something I don't personally care for, I fail to see the fascination with it, but I have no problem with it in general, or in other people liking it.

 

If there's something I more actively dislike, I use stronger terms than "not a fan of"

 

I will say 'I'm no fan of survival horror games"  My view of ME3 go beyond "Not a fan"

Saying that you don't personally care for "aliens" as a whole is... pretty bad, still. What reaction would I get in mixed company if I said I didn't personally care for black people?

[SwobyJ]

"You humans need to learn your place"

 

Said the Council's top Spectre in full view of the Council, the human ambassador, and an unknown number of other audience members.

 

Plus it was likely recorded for posterity.

 

 

Exactly. She's a conservative in this setting, and thus not really my cup of tea, but it isn't like she's reacting to absolutely nothing. Conservatives - like any philosophical stance in their own ways - run off the stances of others. Ashley sees aliens kicking humans down, insulting them, and just barely considering them to have any real role in the galaxy. So she barely restrains herself from doing the same in turn.

 

"Your place" = Squabbling with Batarians over any useful territories. Move along - the Council species get the good stuff. Volus get to be a client species, Elcor get like.. a planet. Hanar get like.. a planet.

 

*bows down before the magnificence of the Council*

 

Can't even open unknown relays to see what else is out there, without Council regulation (aka jurisdiction).

[Xilizhra]

Exactly. She's a conservative in this setting, and thus not really my cup of tea, but it isn't like she's reacting to absolutely nothing. Conservatives - like any philosophical stance in their own ways - run off the stances of others. Ashley sees aliens kicking humans down, insulting them, and just barely considering them to have any real role in the galaxy. So she barely restrains herself from doing the same in turn.

 

"Your place" = Squabbling with Batarians over any useful territories. Move along - the Council species get the good stuff. Volus get to be a client species, Elcor get like.. a planet. Hanar get like.. a planet.

 

*bows down before the magnificence of the Council*

 

Can't even open unknown relays to see what else is out there, without Council regulation (aka jurisdiction).

Saren was a dick, but the Council didn't really have any choice but to deny the initial request, as the evidence was barely present. In any case, the Alliance got a pretty huge swathe of territory in the galactic east without too much competition.

[SwobyJ]

Saying that you don't personally care for "aliens" as a whole is... pretty bad, still. What reaction would I get in mixed company if I said I didn't personally care for black people?

 

We're talking literal species though.

 

I know the race thing comes up, but again, these are literally other species.

 

We know that the understanding of aliens increases over time in ME1, and then in ME2-ME3 it is assumed that we at least accept aliens, but in the ME1 context it makes sense. Aliens are still new to most humans (most still living on Earth). There are similarities, but they are again, different species.

 

Ultimately, I'm of the view that the end goal (even if it takes trillions of years) is for all sapient life (or beyond sapience into concepts we can't even imagine) tolerates, accepts, and maybe even embraces each other. But that also isn't realistic in the here and now. Ashley sees other species restricting the pace of human expansion.

 

We learn over time the better reasons why they do so. But that doesn't change that they do it. That they assume authority over what humanity does, as long as we have any association with them (embassy). That's what chafes those colony kids.

[Xilizhra]

We're talking literal species though.

 

I know the race thing comes up, but again, these are literally other species.

 

We know that the understanding of aliens increases over time in ME1, and then in ME2-ME3 it is assumed that we at least accept aliens, but in the ME1 context it makes sense. Aliens are still new to most humans (most still living on Earth). There are similarities, but they are again, different species.

 

Ultimately, I'm of the view that the end goal (even if it takes trillions of years) is for all sapient life (or beyond sapience into concepts we can't even imagine) tolerates, accepts, and maybe even embraces each other. But that also isn't realistic in the here and now. Ashley sees other species restricting the pace of human expansion.

 

We learn over time the better reasons why they do so. But that doesn't change that they do it. That they assume authority over what humanity does, as long as we have any association with them (embassy). That's what chafes those colony kids.

That quote is from ME2.

[Iakus]

Saren was a dick, but the Council didn't really have any choice but to deny the initial request, as the evidence was barely present. In any case, the Alliance got a pretty huge swathe of territory in the galactic east without too much competition.

Well, except for the batarians who, you know enslave the humans they don't outright kill, while the Council goes "Tut-tut, you really should have defended your colonies better"

[SwobyJ]

Saren was a dick, but the Council didn't really have any choice but to deny the initial request, as the evidence was barely present. In any case, the Alliance got a pretty huge swathe of territory in the galactic east without too much competition.

 

Mr. Cyborg Saren.

 

And very little of it able to be colonized. Anything else would get into what the Council claimed, the Batarians legitimately or illegitimately claimed, or beyond relays that again, they're not allowed to open and use without the Council getting into it.

 

That's why the Collectors attacking was so bad. Humanity was forced to expand into the most dangerous parts of the galaxy in order to have any sort of significant colonization effort (beyond like Terra Nova and Eden Prime and such). Resources are plentiful, yes, but not places to live and expand presence and influence as human organizations and populations wanted to.

 

In this sense though, they were a Krogan-lite situation. This is why the Council was so... iffy about humanity. Are they another Krogan? Or on the other hand, maybe they're another Asari? Or maybe Quarians? Or maybe Batarians? Or Turians? They just can't pin humanity down, so they both welcomed them but treated them with kid gloves. Thus the frustration on the part of some Alliance/Human leaders - "Do they want us all-in? Or will they leave us alone?", sick of the wishy washy.

[Iakus]

Saying that you don't personally care for "aliens" as a whole is... pretty bad, still. What reaction would I get in mixed company if I said I didn't personally care for black people?

::shrug::  In a liberal 21st century audience, probably wouldn't go over very well.  People get crucified over tactless or poorly thought out statements all the time.

 

But what keeps getting forgotten is the second half of her statement "...but Cerberus has a record of being extremist"

 

Ash is "not a fan of" aliens.  But she's nothing like the real fringe lunatics that are out there.

[SwobyJ]

Xil, do you just want the Alliance and Human governments to merge with the Asari and get it over with?

 

 

EDIT: And I say this as someone who has the ultimate view that the whole galaxy should unite into one, mind you. I also am not as scared of an IRL world government as many others are.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

::shrug::  In a liberal 21st century audience, probably wouldn't go over very well.  People get crucified over tactless or poorly thought out statements all the time.

 

But what keeps getting forgotten is the second half of her statement "...but Cerberus has a record of being extremist"

 

Ash is "not a fan of" aliens.  But she's nothing like the real fringe lunatics that are out there.

 

Extremist at what? 

 

Ash isn't a fan of aliens. And she demonstrates that this means that she really is one of said fringe lunatics. 

[SwobyJ]

I'm not a goddamn fan of the Hanar, but I'm cool with them worshiping Prothians if they want to. Just don't put Enkindler pamphlets in my hand and expect me to join along.

 

EDIT: Heck, IRL I'm not a big fan of the Lebanese. They have a messed up political situation that I don't want to ever get involved with. But of course there's stuff to like and even love, especially things like their closeness of families in their culture. My boyfriend was born and early raised in Lebanon (went back once for a few years before it got bad again). He's going there in a couple weeks. But still, not really a fan. Not being a fan (even in the sense that Ashley uses it), doesn't mean total isolation and distaste for all of it. It means not embracing it and everything about it, due to Reason X, Y, Z.

 

Being not a 'fan' of blacks is just that - being not a fan of others based on their skin color and composition. That's what makes it so idiotic to actually be racist. There's no logical foundation. It is way, way, way too broad of a qualifier. At least have the minimum of attention to discriminate based on aspects of culture and politics and history etc. At least have the minimum of thought process other than 'looks different'. And Ashley does that. What a surprise - she's not Terra Firma or Cerberus.

[Xilizhra]

Well, except for the batarians who, you know enslave the humans they don't outright kill, while the Council goes "Tut-tut, you really should have defended your colonies better"

Actually, the Hegemony doesn't do that, per se. Rather, they secretly sponsor various pirate groups to do the job; those were the enemies at Elysium and Torfan. Bring Down the Sky becomes a bit confusing, admittedly, because one would think it'd count as a bona fide act of war against the Alliance... which makes me suspect that Balak was the only one there with an official connection to the Hegemony's government, which would explain why he wasn't part of the original raid and more or less hijacked it.

 

 

Mr. Cyborg Saren.

 

And very little of it able to be colonized. Anything else would get into what the Council claimed, the Batarians legitimately or illegitimately claimed, or beyond relays that again, they're not allowed to open and use without the Council getting into it.

 

That's why the Collectors attacking was so bad. Humanity was forced to expand into the most dangerous parts of the galaxy in order to have any sort of significant colonization effort (beyond like Terra Nova and Eden Prime and such). Resources are plentiful, yes, but not places to live and expand presence and influence as human organizations and populations wanted to.

 

In this sense though, they were a Krogan-lite situation. This is why the Council was so... iffy about humanity. Are they another Krogan? Or on the other hand, maybe they're another Asari? Or maybe Quarians? Or maybe Batarians? Or Turians? They just can't pin humanity down, so they both welcomed them but treated them with kid gloves. Thus the frustration on the part of some Alliance/Human leaders - "Do they want us all-in? Or will they leave us alone?", sick of the wishy washy.

IIRC, Saren's implants were supposed to only be there in the final battle, but they dropped the non-implanted version of his model without changing any of the dialogue. The result is rather wonky, especially when Saren is bragging about his implants during the final battle while having not changed physically at all.

 

Also, the human colonies being attacked in ME2 are, by and large, not part of the Alliance; they went into the Terminus Systems, not to help humanity expand, but to get away from the human governments.

 

 

::shrug::  In a liberal 21st century audience, probably wouldn't go over very well.  People get crucified over tactless or poorly thought out statements all the time.

 

But what keeps getting forgotten is the second half of her statement "...but Cerberus has a record of being extremist"

 

Ash is "not a fan of" aliens.  But she's nothing like the real fringe lunatics that are out there.

I don't know where you get the impression that I think she's a fringe lunatic. I don't think her speciesism is terribly uncommon; that does not mean that it doesn't exist, it just means that many humans are speciesist.

 

 

Xil, do you just want the Alliance and Human governments to merge with the Asari and get it over with?

 

 

EDIT: And I say this as someone who has the ultimate view that the whole galaxy should unite into one, mind you. I also am not as scared of an IRL world government as many others are.

Right now, no; far too soon.

[SwobyJ]

Actually, Saren's eyes are more glowy on the Citadel than on Virmire. He was upgraded, at least in the visual sense.

[Hazegurl]

I don't see how anyone can defend the anti human alien aholes in this game. Not excusing Ash for her remarks but seriously. The Turians remind me of WW2 Nazis in their military "supremacy" of their species. The Asasi benefited no one but themselves as they made rules to deny the advancement of other species while hording Prothean tech. Then you had the crazy slave trading Batarians. Heck there was a Turian politician whose entire campaign was anti human. It's no surprise that Saren was able to get in front of the Council and say the things he said. One could easily say that Ash is a byproduct of these anti human aliens and their public dislike of humans. At the end of the day she was right about the other species anyway. However, I don't get how anyone could say she herself didn't harbor any sort of bigoted opinions. She certainly did. You don't have to join the KKK to be racist and you don't have to join Cerberus to be an anti alien bigot. You can acknowledge that it doesn't have to go that far while still maintaining prejudice beliefs.

[Xilizhra]

I don't see how anyone can defend the anti human alien aholes in this game. Not excusing Ash for her remarks but seriously. The Turians remind me of WW2 Nazis in their military "supremacy" of their species. The Asasi benefited no one but themselves as they made rules to deny the advancement of other species while hording Prothean tech. Then you had the crazy slave trading Batarians. Heck there was a Turian politician whose entire campaign was anti human. It's no surprise that Saren was able to get in front of the Council and say the things he said. One could easily say that Ash is a byproduct of these anti human aliens and their public dislike of humans. At the end of the day she was right about the other species anyway. However, I don't get how anyone could say she herself didn't harbor any sort of bigoted opinions. She certainly did. You don't have to join the KKK to be racist and you don't have to join Cerberus to be an anti alien bigot. You can acknowledge that it doesn't have to go that far while still maintaining prejudice beliefs.

Um, saying "the asari" did that is about as accurate as saying "the humans tried to exterminate the Jews." Less, really.

[DeinonSlayer]

Um, saying "the asari" did that is about as accurate as saying "the humans tried to exterminate the Jews." Less, really.

Funny how out of that whole huge post, the Asari are the only ones you jump in to defend.

[SwobyJ]

Funny how out of that whole huge post, the Asari are the only ones you jump in to defend.

 

Of course.

[NeroonWilliams]

According to "the rules" of modern American society, Ashley CAN'T be a racist because she is a member of an "oppressed" minority.

 

As you can tell from the sarcasm quotes all over that statement, I don't really believe that.

 

Ashley isn't a racist though.  She's xenophobic.  With plenty of good reasons, too.

 

She's a part of an organization (the Alliance military) that is meant to defend human territory.

 

She's constantly reminded by those around her of her grandfather's failure against "the aliens".

 

At the time of ME1, she's hardly ever been exposed to them to break any of those prejudices.

 

Additionally, Ashley doesn't just not trust aliens.  She has a hard time trusting ANYONE, including her superior officers.  Combine that with the reality of the Normandy's status as a top secret prototype ship, and why SHOULDN'T she be reluctant to trust the aliens on board?

[SwobyJ]

hmm? I don't recall Ashley having a problem with Anderson & Steve. An her voice actor is black.  How the heck is she racist? This threads title makes no sense.

 

As race tends to be a socially defined term (one decade's race difference is another decade's 'white', etc), one could suppose that 'race' will eventually extend to whole species.

 

Or OP is trolling. Whatevs.

[themikefest]

Um, saying "the asari" did that is about as accurate as saying "the humans tried to exterminate the Jews." Less, really.

Really? So its ok for the Asari to withhold the beacon until the last minute because they were under attack? They didn't care about anybody else. How many lives would've/could've been saved had they revealed the artifact earlier? Plus its against policy to withhold any Prothean information.

 

Funny how out of that whole huge post, the Asari are the only ones you jump in to defend.

Of course, they're special

[Nuclear]

Ashley's not racist. She's not even really xenophobic. I never did understand the vitriol that surrounded her in ME1.

 

The remarks people like to call her out on are 100% justifiable. Her entire family is scarred by her grandfather's actions in the First Contact War, actions which had to happen to same human lives from a then relatively unknown alien race, and the subsequent shame cast onto his family line.

 

It's really when you first start getting to know her that she is the most untrusting of alien species and when you talk to her you understand why. And considering how many times humans are stepped on in ME by different alien races, heck by how many times other alien races are discriminated by others (such as the Krogan) it's completely understandable why she would be so defensive for her own race who are still a fledging species in space travel in the galaxy compared to others.

 

I say she's not xenophobic because whilst she does say remarks that are untrusting of other species, she doesn't hate them and isn't scared of them. She grows to love the alien crew members she has, even going so far as to remark that Tali is a little sister to her (which is obviously major because of how devoted she is to family). She's also untrusting about humans and when she sees humans who are very discriminatory to aliens she's affronted by them.

 

Really all she is is a person who finds it hard to trust unknown variables. Her grandfather's persecution really is the main cause of this, but in ME1 you can clearly see her taking off those tinted glasses and seeing the potential in other species.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Ashley's not racist. She's not even really xenophobic. I never did understand the vitriol that surrounded her in ME1.

 

The remarks people like to call her out on are 100% justifiable. Her entire family is scarred by her grandfather's actions in the First Contact War, actions which had to happen to same human lives from a then relatively unknown alien race, and the subsequent shame cast onto his family line.

 

It's really when you first start getting to know her that she is the most untrusting of alien species and when you talk to her you understand why. And considering how many times humans are stepped on in ME by different alien races, heck by how many times other alien races are discriminated by others (such as the Krogan) it's completely understandable why she would be so defensive for her own race who are still a fledging species in space travel in the galaxy compared to others.

 

I say she's not xenophobic because whilst she does say remarks that are untrusting of other species, she doesn't hate them and isn't scared of them. She grows to love the alien crew members she has, even going so far as to remark that Tali is a little sister to her (which is obviously major because of how devoted she is to family). She's also untrusting about humans and when she sees humans who are very discriminatory to aliens she's affronted by them.

 

Really all she is is a person who finds it hard to trust unknown variables. Her grandfather's persecution really is the main cause of this, but in ME1 you can clearly see her taking off those tinted glasses and seeing the potential in other species.

 

I refer you to my previous posts here to highlight why I feel differently, and why I feel Ashley has no excuse for acting the way she does.

[Nuclear]

I refer you to my previous posts here to highlight why I feel differently, and why I feel Ashley has no excuse for acting the way she does.

Those are your feelings. I have my own.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

And I'm saying that within my statement is the response to your feelings.