642 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

I imagine that a single reaper is all it really takes anyway, but there's no way that the geth would have been ignored, regardless of what the quarians decided to do.

[DeinonSlayer]

It's not willful ignorance, it's questioning and criticism of idiocy that could have cost us their fleet. Here's the flaw in that statement. Separating civilians from the fleet does not increase force projection capability. A Quarian warship doesn't have increased projection of ability just because the liveship it gets its supplies from is empty of civilians. They'd still be heavily bound to the Quarian fleet as a whole, and they would not be able to split up anyway. That's a two way street. The warships may protect the liveships, but the civilians leaving the liveships does not suddenly make the warships any less dependent on the liveship. Offloading the civilians could have waited long enough for Shepard to secure peace with the Geth to allow their citizens to return to Rannoch unhindered.

The civilians aren't all on the liveships, if that's what you're saying. The cargo holds of just about every ship in the fleet were partitioned into living space for civilians - the Idenna, for instance, was a former Batarian cruiser designed for a crew of 80, but was home to over 700 people. Emptying the civvies out drastically reduces the amount of food that each of those ships needs to take on to keep its crew fed, allowing those same cargo holds to be used for supply distribution as Hackett requested.

As I said, ironing things out between the Quarians and the Geth would have been a far better use of Shepard's time in the interim between ME2 and ME3. Unfortunately, Legion stopped answering Tali's messages prior to the Quarian invasion (which was itself launched after the Reaper invasion, per the "Quarian fleet intel" item in the Spectre terminal), and the Geth's 300-year track record of killing all emissaries sent to them didn't exactly leave much ground to believe further negotiations would have any chance of succeeding.

The game leaves it an open question as to whether the Geth entered talks with the Reapers before or after the Quarians invaded - it's possible they received the offer of the Reaper code earlier, but shelved it until their backs were against the wall. Shepard never asks, and Legion never volunteers an answer - all we have to go on is Tali's speculation as to why Legion stopped responding. "Maybe he was fighting the Reaper takeover, or maybe he didn't want to share information with an enemy." Legion's last message to Tali before going silent was that the Geth were "unable to reach consensus."

[MassivelyEffective0730]

The civilians aren't all on the liveships, if that's what you're saying. The cargo holds of just about every ship in the fleet were partitioned into living space for civilians - the Idenna, for instance, was a former Batarian cruiser designed for a crew of 80, but was home to over 700 people. Emptying the civvies out drastically reduces the amount of food that each of those ships needs to take on to keep its crew fed, allowing those same cargo holds to be used for supply distribution as Hackett requested.

As I said, ironing things out between the Quarians and the Geth would have been a far better use of Shepard's time in the interim between ME2 and ME3. Unfortunately, Legion stopped answering Tali's messages prior to the Quarian invasion (which was itself launched after the Reaper invasion, per the "Quarian fleet intel" item in the Spectre terminal), and the Geth's 300-year track record of killing all emissaries sent to them didn't exactly leave much ground to believe further negotiations would have any chance of succeeding.

The game leaves it an open question as to whether the Geth entered talks with the Reapers before or after the Quarians invaded - it's possible they received the offer of the Reaper code earlier, but shelved it until their backs were against the wall. Shepard never asks, and Legion never volunteers an answer - all we have to go on is Tali's speculation as to why Legion stopped responding. "Maybe he was fighting the Reaper takeover, or maybe he didn't want to share information with an enemy."

 

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that emptying civilians from liveships does not increase the projection of power for the Quarian fleet to operate independently of the liveships. That's like saying that a Ferrari will be have a higher mileage rate because the gas station got rid of the convenience store. If it were all up to the movement of supplies, then I think the Geth would be even better than the Quarians, with a comparable logistical ability and the ability to dedicate warships to both supply and military operations simultaneously. And as far as moving refugee's goes, I don't think it would be too hard to convert any Geth ships to have a basic short-term habitability for any survivors. It'd be no different than the Quarians, who'd also have to convert their systems to support any non-dextro based species.

 

I think Shepard would have been able to do it. And you're really making the messaging between Tali and Legion seem as if it was at regular intervals. We can't really speak as to why said messaging stopped of course, but I will say that I think you way overstate the blame for the 300 year track record of killing on the Geth.

 

I blame the Quarians for that too. They made the Geth bitter, jaded, and cynical enough so that they (the Geth) would come to believe that nothing good can ever come from organics, which would explain why the Geth always attacked. I can't blame the Geth for that, since the Quarians made such a spectacular first impression. Until of course Shepard comes along and independently gains the Geth's attention, at which point they decide to contact him and begin their own mission to find information. I blame the Quarians for the Geth's continued hostility: Legion said it best. Whenever the Quarians think they can win, they always attack. They don't bother trying to work differently. Are the Geth really to blame for having such a hostile reaction to any kind of foreign incursion? I think not.

 

I think it's a combination with both, with Legion probably realizing the Quarians were going to make a power play of some kind, and not wanting to endanger the Consensus, stopped communicating. And a Reaper might have been involved. For which I again blame the Quarians.

[KaiserShep]

All roads lead to Rannoch.

[DeinonSlayer]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that emptying civilians from liveships does not increase the projection of power for the Quarian fleet to operate independently of the liveships. That's like saying that a Ferrari will be have a higher mileage rate because the gas station got rid of the convenience store.
 
I think Shepard would have been able to do it. And you're really making the messaging between Tali and Legion seem as if it was at regular intervals. We can't really speak as to why said messaging stopped of course, but I will say that I think you way overstate the blame for the 300 year track record of killing on the Geth.
 
I blame the Quarians for that too. They made the Geth bitter, jaded, and cynical enough so that they (the Geth) would come to believe that nothing good can ever come from organics, which would explain why the Geth always attacked. I can't blame the Geth for that, since the Quarians made such a spectacular first impression. Until of course Shepard comes along and independently gains the Geth's attention, at which point they decide to contact him and begin their own mission to find information. I blame the Quarians for the Geth's continued hostility: Legion said it best. Whenever the Quarians think they can win, they always attack. They don't bother trying to work differently. Are the Geth really to blame for having such a hostile reaction to any kind of foreign incursion? I think not.
 
I think it's a combination with both, with Legion probably realizing the Quarians were going to make a power play of some kind, and not wanting to endanger the Consensus, stopped communicating. And a Reaper might have been involved. For which I again blame the Quarians.

I agree emptying civilians from the liveships doesn't increase their force projection either, but we're not talking only about the civilians on the liveships. We're talking about the civilians on every other ship in the fleet; the ones filling the cargo holds of the warships and freighters which are expected to go out and aid the Reaper war effort. Those warships and freighters have to stay close enough for daily food shipments for hundreds more people than are needed to staff them until those civilians are offloaded. Once that's done, the civvies can stay on a planet, eating the output of the liveships as they establish a self-sufficient colony, while those warships and freighters go out to take over the logistics for the Reaper war effort. The Turians probably compensate the crews of those ships with the food and fuel they need to operate independently of the Migrant Fleet's infrastructure (or at least enough to make up the difference in what the fleet can manage to get out to them).

So the Geth still get to blame their own behavior (and how others have come to perceive them for it) on what some Quarians did to them generations ago? That doesn't seem like a very reasonable position to me.

I don't expect to change your mind, but the way I see it, the Geth had the ball in their court for a very, very long time, and they blew it. They were hooked into the extranet, studying organics, while organics were not afforded the same opportunity to study them. Evidently, the Geth were even able to delve into classified military files - like the Alliance records from Virmire. They saw the Quarians sign (and, for centuries, adhere to) an agreement not to provoke them, watched as the Council fleet which was amassed on their border in preparation for a Geth invasion was scaled down over time until only a few sentries remained. Organics made attempts at outreach which were consistently and violently rejected - they gave the galaxy no reason to believe they could be reasoned with, when it was well within their power to do so. Their borders were well defended - there was no risk to them in opening channels to the outside world, but they were content to let the heretics serve as their ambassadors to the galaxy without so much as dissociating themselves from them for over two years after Sovereign's attack on the Citadel. Just what the hell did they expect would happen?

EDIT: Going back to the first paragraph - it isn't directly stated to my recollection, but it's possible the cargo holds of the military ships (of which there are several hundred out of the 50,000 ship fleet) were used as civilian housing. The freighters which Hackett wanted their fleet for are, however, specifically said in the codex to have been partitioned for civilian housing. I find it hard to believe the cargo holds of their dedicated military ships would be used like that, but then again, the Idenna's were, and it was a former Batarian cruiser...

[DeinonSlayer]

All roads lead to Rannoch.

Insert obligatory cycle-cannot-be-broken quote. Also rabbit/duck season GIF.

[SpamBot2000]

"Racist" is not a binary thing that you either are or aren't. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I agree emptying civilians from the liveships doesn't increase their force projection either, but we're not talking only about the civilians on the liveships. We're talking about the civilians on every other ship in the fleet; the ones filling the cargo holds of the warships and freighters which are expected to go out and aid the Reaper war effort. Those warships and freighters have to stay close enough for daily food shipments for hundreds more people than are needed to staff them until those civilians are offloaded. Once that's done, the civvies can stay on a planet, eating the output of the liveships as they establish a self-sufficient colony, while those warships and freighters go out to take over the logistics for the Reaper war effort. The Turians probably compensate the crews of those ships with the food and fuel they need to operate independently of the Migrant Fleet's infrastructure (or at least enough to make up the difference in what the fleet can manage to get out to them).

So the Geth still get to blame their own behavior (and how others have come to perceive them for it) on what some Quarians did to them generations ago? That doesn't seem like a very reasonable position to me.

I don't expect to change your mind, but the way I see it, the Geth had the ball in their court for a very, very long time, and they blew it. They were hooked into the extranet, studying organics, while organics were not afforded the same opportunity to study them. Evidently, the Geth were even able to delve into classified military files - like the Alliance records from Virmire. They saw the Quarians sign (and, for centuries, adhere to) an agreement not to provoke them, watched as the Council fleet which was amassed on their border in preparation for a Geth invasion was scaled down over time until only a few sentries remained. Organics made attempts at outreach which were consistently and violently rejected - they gave the galaxy no reason to believe they could be reasoned with, when it was well within their power to do so. Their borders were well defended - there was no risk to them in opening channels to the outside world, but they were content to let the heretics serve as their ambassadors to the galaxy without so much as dissociating themselves from them for over two years after Sovereign's attack on the Citadel. Just what the hell did they expect would happen?

EDIT: Going back to the first paragraph - it isn't directly stated to my recollection, but it's possible the cargo holds of the military ships (of which there are several hundred out of the 50,000 ship fleet) were used as civilian housing. The freighters which Hackett wanted their fleet for are, however, specifically said in the codex to have been partitioned for civilian housing. I find it hard to believe the cargo holds of their dedicated military ships would be used like that, but then again, the Idenna's were, and it was a former Batarian cruiser...

 

Yes, there we are, a breakthrough in communication. Your previous post came across as my scenario suggested. They can stay on a planet. It really doesn't even have to be Rannoch. It's a temporary inconvenience for them, in which they'd have to stay in their suits the entire time, but considering that they've lived their entire life in their suit, that's not a real issue. But the point is, Rannoch isn't needed just yet, just long enough so that the Quarians can an agreement with the Geth which would allow them to return to Rannoch. Shepard would have to facilitate this of course since trigger-happy Gerrel would probably botch the whole shebang.

 

Yes, I still blame the Quarians and organics in general for the Geth's actions and behavior. I don't see how it's not reasonable. 

 

The Geth likely felt that due to past history, it wasn't in their interest to associate with organics, mainly because their own history and the history of the Citadel races showed that organics didn't take kindly to the existence of synthetics. And because of this, they had no reason to believe that any species would ever be receptive to their survival. The Quarians didn't sign an agreement to not provoke the Geth out of a sense of guilt or by the Council's ideal to establish peace. They signed it (and the Council drafted it) so that the Quarians didn't provoke the Geth into killing them all. And given all that had happened, all the attitudes of biological life compared to synthetic life, I'd say the Geth's opinions on the existence of organics was apathetic. They were a curiosity to be studied, not a group to be engaged with. That's why they didn't care to stop the Heretics. The Geth have no reason to look into the interests of organics.

 

To finish and to get to the point, the Geth are open to the idea of non-violent relations, but they don't believe that it would ever be possible in reciprocation from organics, and thus respond accordingly. That's why they attack any emissaries entering their space. That's why they don't engage the outside galaxy. That's why they don't care about the outside galaxy. And yes, I believe the Quarians are 100% to blame for all of it. Any other blame would be assigned to organics as well.

 

Plus the Geth do also adopt a quasi-policy of non-interference, preferring that they achieve their own destiny on their own terms without any kind of external influence.

[Sir DeLoria]

I don't really think you can call any side 100% responsible for this conflict. The Quarians attacked and the Geths' isolationism, xenophobia and hostility didn't help.

I can totally see why the Quarians didn't try diplomacy, seeing as though the Geth had just shot down anyone who came near them for the last few centuries and ignored any attempt at dimplomacy.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I don't really think you can call any side 100% responsible for this conflict. The Quarians attacked and the Geths' isolationism, xenophobia and hostility didn't help.

I can totally see why the Quarians didn't try diplomacy, seeing as though the Geth had just shot down anyone who came near them for the last few centuries and ignored any attempt at dimplomacy.

 

And I just explained why the Geth ignored such acts of diplomacy. The Geth aren't xenophobic (that's your invention), and their hostility and isolationism were a defense mechanism against an equally hostile galaxy.

[KaiserShep]

It doesn't help that Sovereign was basically an annoying instigator that made things worse.

[DeinonSlayer]

And I just explained why the Geth ignored such acts of diplomacy. The Geth aren't xenophobic (that's your invention), and their hostility and isolationism were a defense mechanism against an equally hostile galaxy.

Through which they foreseeably perpetuated the way the rest of the galaxy reacts to them. The Geth created a self-fulfilling prophecy and have no one to blame for it but themselves. They had every opportunity in the world to change this perception - they could have squirted out a message on the extranet any time they wanted at no risk to themselves ("Hey, we want to be left alone. Hey, those guys scything their way through your colonies don't represent us"), but they chose not to. Legion can say they want non-violent interaction with organics, but it's never going to happen if they continue to ignore all hails and kill any organic which crosses their path on sight. Their own isolationism is, and for centuries has been, the primary roadblock to that end. I'd say the indifference towards organics you credit to them was a big reason why they exterminated every Quarian in the Veil to begin with - it isn't that they didn't understand what they were doing; they simply didn't care.

I'm going to have to take the time to sit down and write a proper reply to your earlier post, but I doubt we'll ever see eye to eye on this.

[Daemul]

Wow, another thread taken off topic by the Geth vs Quarian argument, such surprise. 

[Sir DeLoria]

And I just explained why the Geth ignored such acts of diplomacy. The Geth aren't xenophobic (that's your invention), and their hostility and isolationism were a defense mechanism against an equally hostile galaxy.

Implying that the entire galaxy was hostile towards them to begin with. They had their weapons drawn the whole time and whacked anyone who dare come near them, so they were the ones who eliminated any chance at peace. It was really only a matter of time until someone stronger or more advanced came along to whack them in return.

And I do see some xenophobia in them, as they seem to have somewhat of an irrational fear of anything coming from the outside world.

[Dabrikishaw]

Once everyone said their piece on the actual topic of Ashley's racism, there wasn't a lot of places to go from there.

[DeinonSlayer]

Wow, another thread taken off topic by the Geth vs Quarian argument, such surprise.

We could all start ripping on Liara again.

[Livi14]

But where it gets kind of weird is that the reapers then decided to establish a base on Rannoch, and take total control over them. It's fair to assume that the reapers are fully aware of the geth's hold over Rannoch, and the geth in their pre-war form are totally susceptible to being hijacked, so that right there makes them an asset ripe for the picking. In the reapers' position, they wouldn't need their consent to take control of the system and turn them into their slaves. I'm of the opinion that by their will or not, the geth would have become their tools.

 

You might have a point there, but I doubt saving the geth was the intention of the quarians when they decided to attack

In any case, I just don't understand how strapping guns onto school buses to attack the geth can make the lives of 17 million quarians somehow more worth than the lives of the several billion asari, elcor or salarians in the galaxy, at least as long as the protagonist isn't a quarian himself.

[DeinonSlayer]

Implying that the entire galaxy was hostile towards them to begin with. They had their weapons drawn the whole time and whacked anyone who dare come near them, so they were the ones who eliminated any chance at peace. It was really only a matter of time until someone stronger or more advanced came along to whack them in return.

And I do see some xenophobia in them, as they seem to have somewhat of an irrational fear of anything coming from the outside world.

Ashley is an unforgivable xenophobe for a couple of offhanded comments, but the Geth aren't for killing any non-Geth to cross their path for centuries on end, justifying it on the assumption that all organics are and will be hostile to them (which is contrary to their own observations, even of just the Quarians) so it isn't even worth trying to talk to them. Makes total sense.

[KaiserShep]

Think man. How can the geth be xenophobic? It's just like how .exe files don't run on OS X without emulation. It all makes sense, I tells ya.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Implying that the entire galaxy was hostile towards them to begin with. They had their weapons drawn the whole time and whacked anyone who dare come near them, so they were the ones who eliminated any chance at peace. It was really only a matter of time until someone stronger or more advanced came along to whack them in return.

And I do see some xenophobia in them, as they seem to have somewhat of an irrational fear of anything coming from the outside world.

 

The entire galaxy was hostile to them to begin with. They didn't draw their weapons until the Quarians attacked first. They didn't suddenly just attack the Quarians because they decided they hated them because your headcanon demands that Tali and her race be innocent.  The reason they had their weapons at ready the entire time along the border? They had no reason to believe any organics would find it desirable for peace. Legion confirms this, as do the actions of the Quarians. 

 

As I've said, the Geth found peace desirable, but believed that it was impossible due to the nature of organics, who gave them very little to change their mind. So they stopped and destroyed anyone who encroached on their territory out of a sense of self-preservation. They were perfectly justified as I see it. All this is is spiteful degradation on the Geth. You've just made up evidence to justify your headcanon.

 

If the Geth had an irrational fear of everything that wasn't theirs, then why did they bother studying the outside galaxy and the history and culture of organics? They aren't racist or xenophobic. As machines, they really can't be. They do fear the influence of organics, and for good reason as I've highlighted. So it's a rational fear, and justified, not your headcanon to demonize the Geth.

[Sir DeLoria]

The entire galaxy was hostile to them to begin with. They didn't draw their weapons until the Quarians attacked first. They didn't suddenly just attack the Quarians because they decided they hated them because your headcanon demands that Tali and her race be innocent.  The reason they had their weapons at ready the entire time along the border? They had no reason to believe any organics would find it desirable for peace. Legion confirms this, as do the actions of the Quarians. 
 
As I've said, the Geth found peace desirable, but believed that it was impossible due to the nature of organics, who gave them very little to change their mind. So they stopped and destroyed anyone who encroached on their territory out of a sense of self-preservation. They were perfectly justified as I see it. All this is is spiteful degradation on the Geth. You've just made up evidence to justify your headcanon.
 
If the Geth had an irrational fear of everything that wasn't theirs, then why did they bother studying the outside galaxy and the history and culture of organics? They aren't racist or xenophobic. As machines, they really can't be. They do fear the influence of organics, and for good reason as I've highlighted. So it's a rational fear, and justified, not your headcanon to demonize the Geth.

No, no, I'm not trying to demonize the Geth and I do absolutely see how the Quarians are/were at least partially responsible for the ongoing conflict. Imo, both sides are responsible in different ways and I never denied, that it was the Quarians who fired the first shots.

My point was more, that the logic of the Geth is flawed and that their own choices ultimately lead to their potential demise at Rannoch(same as the Quarians in a way). Problem is, the Geth aren't exactly invincible and at some point they would've been attacked and subsequently destroyed by someone stronger than them, if the Geth refused any diplomacy.

There's some evidence in ME1 and 2, that not only the Quarians, but also the Council were contemplating an invasion of the Perseus Veil to stop the Geth. Defeating the Geth was the main drive behind Project Overlord for example. So even if it weren't for the Reapers, a clash with organics would've probably been inevitable. And even the Quarians would've won their invasion if it weren't for Reaper intervention.

So wether their hostility is justified or not is irrelevant, it's just fundamentally flawed.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

No, no, I'm not trying to demonize the Geth and I do absolutely see how the Quarians are/were at least partially responsible for the ongoing conflict. Imo, both sides are responsible in different ways and I never denied, that it was the Quarians who fired the first shots.

My point was more, that the logic of the Geth is flawed and that their own choices ultimately lead to their potential demise at Rannoch(same as the Quarians in a way). Problem is, the Geth aren't exactly invincible and at some point they would've been attacked and subsequently destroyed by someone stronger than them, if the Geth refused any diplomacy.

There's some evidence in ME1 and 2, that not only the Quarians, but also the Council were contemplating an invasion of the Perseus Veil to stop the Geth. Defeating the Geth was the main drive behind Project Overlord for example. So even if it weren't for the Reapers, a clash with organics would've probably been inevitable. And even the Quarians would've won their invasion if it weren't for Reaper intervention.

So wether their hostility is justified or not is irrelevant, it's just fundamentally flawed.

 

The central reason for their hostility (which you guys seem to not be seeing) is that the Geth hold the view that that is the only option open to them, and as I've said, for good reason. They feel that it would be a waste of time to be diplomatic because they feel that no organics on a large scale would be receptive, and have stated that whenever the organics were in an advantageous position, they themselves always attacked. The Geth have no hope in diplomacy, even though they view it favorably. It's the flaws of the organics that force the Geth to come up with a perpetually flawed response, and you're holding that against the Geth.

[DeinonSlayer]

The central reason for their hostility (which you guys seem to not be seeing) is that the Geth hold the view that that is the only option open to them, and as I've said, for good reason. They feel that it would be a waste of time to be diplomatic because they feel that no organics on a large scale would be receptive, and have stated that whenever the organics were in an advantageous position, they themselves always attacked. The Geth have no hope in diplomacy, even though they view it favorably. It's the flaws of the organics that force the Geth to come up with a perpetually flawed response, and you're holding that against the Geth.

Then I guess they should confirm what everyone else fears about them and never even attempt to correct that misperception? This idea that all organics are and will be hostile to them runs counter to their own observations. They simply chose not to do anything about it, even when their own splinter faction once again went on the warpath. The Geth created a self-fulfilling prophecy, and they reaped the consequences for it. Isn't that what everyone says about the Quarians' first attempt to shut them down?

Also, exactly how many times would the Quarians have been positioned to think they'd be able to win, before the Geth started scouring entire planets?

The DoD thought they could beat Skynet. Once. That by itself is 100% of the time.

[DeinonSlayer]

Just curious, who is TheDoctorsRose? That user likes a lot of posts around here (a lot of yours, Massively), but I've never seen them make one of their own - the profile shows no posting history. Feel free to jump in.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Just curious, who is TheDoctorsRose? That user likes a lot of posts around here (a lot of yours, Massively), but I've never seen them make one of their own - the profile shows no posting history. Feel free to jump in.

 

A Doctor Who fan. She's in my Doctor Who group, that's how I know her.