642 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

A Doctor Who fan. She's in my Doctor Who group, that's how I know her.

Fair enough, just thought it odd to see someone who followed topics without commenting on any of them.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Then I guess they should confirm what everyone else fears about them and never even attempt to correct that misperception? This idea that all organics are and will be hostile to them runs counter to their own observations. They simply chose not to do anything about it, even when their own splinter faction once again went on the warpath. The Geth created a self-fulfilling prophecy, and they reaped the consequences for it. Isn't that what everyone says about the Quarians' first attempt to shut them down?

Also, exactly how many times would the Quarians have been positioned to think they'd be able to win, before the Geth started scouring entire planets?

The DoD thought they could beat Skynet. Once. That by itself is 100% of the time.

 

The Geth, like the Quarians, are also very insular. They aren't necessarily interested in how they're viewed so much as whether there is a threat to them. To be frank, the Geth just plain don't care. 

[DeinonSlayer]

The Geth, like the Quarians, are also very insular. They aren't necessarily interested in how they're viewed so much as whether there is a threat to them. To be frank, the Geth just plain don't care.

Well, that's their problem, isn't it? The Quarians at least attempt to ascertain the intent of an approaching vessel before opening fire.

Or should the Quarians not care that they're occupying the planet (which, by their own admission, the Geth neither need nor use) whose plant life they need for their immune systems to function properly?

This entire arc could have been averted if the Geth built their sphere elsewhere and engaged in enough communication for organics to stop perceiving them as a threat.

Had the Quarians attacked them at that point (which I doubt they would), then yes, I would stand against them.

[DaneWolf]

Well in the start... Sure she was. But now she cares for Tali and Liara... Both very close friends to her. And you don't take the desition of being a spectre if your'e a racist.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Well, that's their problem, isn't it? The Quarians at least attempt to ascertain the intent of an approaching vessel before opening fire.

Or should the Quarians not care that they're occupying the planet (which, by their own admission, the Geth neither need nor use) whose plant life they need for their immune systems to function properly?

This entire arc could have been averted if the Geth built their sphere elsewhere and engaged in enough communication for organics to stop perceiving them as a threat.

Had the Quarians attacked them at that point (which I doubt they would), then yes, I would stand against them.

 

So it goes back to the Geth eh? Well, I really think organics, especially the Quarians, shouldn't have held such a view that would be anti-conducive to the Geth's existence.

 

No, it's not their problem. The organics and the Quarians thought of the Geth as a threat, even when they weren't. Except for an exceptional few, organics are bound and determined to see synthetics as a threat on principle. It's irrational fear and hatred that leads to a rational response on the target of that fear and hatred.

 

The Quarians should think about how their actions might affect the Geth, and especially how it might affect themselves. The Quarians don't seem to believe that they can ever have peace with the Geth, and this belief leads the Geth to conclude that they can't have peace with the Quarians. Is it a cycle? Yes. Does it start with the Geth? No.

[SwobyJ]

Well in the start... Sure she was. But now she cares for Tali and Liara... Both very close friends to her. And you don't take the desition of being a spectre if your'e a racist.

 

Yes you do.

 

You don't do it *because* you are one, at least most of the time, but still *can* certainly be one.

 

Maybe not racist/speciesist towards *existing known and part of the Citadel* species, sure, but new arriving ones?

 

I'm quite sure plenty of Spectres hate humans and quarians and krogan and and and. Heck, at least some probably hate 'competing' Council species. They just unite in purpose is all.

 

 

But the thing about Ashley is that, as others stated, she's *not* speciesist - she just doesn't trust anything but the familiar, *period*. Leave the Other be, sure - she doesn't think the turians are the corruption or sin of the galaxy of something that tends to be more close to home (racism, sexism, etc) - but she does think they and the Council should buzz off of Alliance affairs in ME1.

Her evolution is that she accepts them and their authority to some degree - and this is likely partially because it has a human councilor and that this councilor invited her, and partially due to extended exposure to other aliens in ME1 and at least the hospital stay in ME3 (maybe more). Think of that what you will.

[dreamgazer]

Saren wasn't racist whatsoever.

[Hazegurl]

Well, that's their problem, isn't it? The Quarians at least attempt to ascertain the intent of an approaching vessel before opening fire.

Or should the Quarians not care that they're occupying the planet (which, by their own admission, the Geth neither need nor use) whose plant life they need for their immune systems to function properly?

This entire arc could have been averted if the Geth built their sphere elsewhere and engaged in enough communication for organics to stop perceiving them as a threat.

Had the Quarians attacked them at that point (which I doubt they would), then yes, I would stand against them.

I don't understand why you expect the Geth to do everything perfectly while everyone else gets to make their makes. The Geth never left Rannoch because it is just as much their home as it is the Quarians. They were born there, and when the Quarians told them they had no right to exist, they had the might to fight back and take it.  The Quarians need to stop writing checks they can't cash and it was just as much up to them to open the lines of communication with the Geth, something they thought they were too good to do, even as they floated around space for hundreds of years.  It is no one else job to make sacrifices for the Quarian people, most certainly  not a group they tried to commit genocide against. If they are all willing to go down in a blaze of glory because they are too pigheaded to stop making the same mistakes over and over again then who am I to keep them from it?

[SwobyJ]

Saren wasn't racist whatsoever.

 

Saren hated humans. A lot. A lot lot. A really really lot lot lot.

 

With indoctrination, ironically (or appropriately), he THEN had greater acceptance of humanity and trying to 'save them' along with everyone else.

 

But pre Sovereign especially, from what I've read (game and book), racist. Racccistttttt. Big time.

[Hazegurl]

Well in the start... Sure she was. But now she cares for Tali and Liara... Both very close friends to her. And you don't take the desition of being a spectre if your'e a racist.

I doubt the Council cares if a Spectre is racist/bigo or not. A Spectre is someone who is willing to get the job done and as long as they are willing to get it done for the Council then they will always be a Spectre. With that said. Ashley never should have been made a Spectre, not for being a bigot but because she doesn't deserve the job.

[DeinonSlayer]

So it goes back to the Geth eh? Well, I really think organics, especially the Quarians, shouldn't have held such a view that would be anti-conducive to the Geth's existence.

No, it's not their problem. The organics and the Quarians thought of the Geth as a threat, even when they weren't. Except for an exceptional few, organics are bound and determined to see synthetics as a threat on principle. It's irrational fear and hatred that leads to a rational response on the target of that fear and hatred.

The Quarians should think about how their actions might affect the Geth, and especially how it might affect themselves. The Quarians don't seem to believe that they can ever have peace with the Geth, and this belief leads the Geth to conclude that they can't have peace with the Quarians. Is it a cycle? Yes. Does it start with the Geth? No.

You're pretty determined to see this as a one-way street, aren't you? Most of this goes both ways. I really think the Geth, especially the heretics, shouldn't have taken actions that would be as anti-conducive as possible to organics aspiring for peace with them.

Yes, it's their problem. The Geth treat organics as a threat, even when they're not. The Quarians experienced that a few billion times over. Except for one exceptional platform, organics have been invariably shot at by any Geth platform they had the misfortune of encountering for the last three hundred years - platforms governed by a consensus treating organics as a threat on principle despite evidence to the contrary. It's a rational conclusion for organics to reach that communication, let alone peace, is not an outcome desired by the Geth, and any attempts to pursue it will prove futile.

It is a cycle. The ones who started it (and their great-great-grandchildren) are long dead. We can't exactly dig them up and make them apologize at this point, though we can see their descendents are amenable to coexistence (look no further than who the Civilian Fleet elected to lead them). Someone has to take the first step, and for the last three hundred years, the Geth are the ones who have been actively blocking dialogue. You'll understand if I roll my eyes a little when they blow up the latest dignitary sent to them and then turn around and fret about why those racist organics don't like them.

They're the roadblock. Ball's in their court.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

You're pretty determined to see this as a one-way street, aren't you? Most of this goes both ways. I really think the Geth, especially the heretics, shouldn't have taken actions that would be as anti-conducive as possible to organics aspiring for peace with them.

Yes, it's their problem. The Geth treat organics as a threat, even when they're not. The Quarians experienced that a few billion times over. Except for one exceptional platform, organics have been invariably shot at by any Geth platform they had the misfortune of encountering for the last three hundred years - platforms governed by a consensus treating organics as a threat on principle despite evidence to the contrary. It's a rational conclusion for organics to reach that communication, let alone peace, is not an outcome desired by the Geth, and any attempts to pursue it will prove futile.

It is a cycle. The ones who started it (and their great-great-grandchildren) are long dead. We can't exactly dig them up and make them apologize at this point, though we can see their descendents are amenable to coexistence (look no further than who the Civilian Fleet elected to lead them). Someone has to take the first step, and for the last three hundred years, the Geth are the ones who have been actively blocking dialogue. You'll understand if I roll my eyes a little when they blow up the latest dignitary sent to them and then turn around and fret about why those racist organics don't like them.

They're the roadblock. Ball's in their court.

 

It is a one way street. It's not the Geth that are the roadblock here. And yes, it does go all the way back to the Quarians. I can see who the Civilians elected as their leader. And I can see who the military has as their leader, the guy who's got the real power and the fleet to back him up. 

 

As I've said, the Geth aren't actively campaigning for peace. I'm not saying that they're looking for it. They aren't. They believe in it, but they don't believe that it's going to happen. That's why they're so focused on maintaining their defense. And it's all from the organics, who don't do much of a job to paint another picture of themselves for the Geth. How the hell else are the Geth supposed to respond? The organics reach said conclusion you've stated, long after the Geth arrived at that conclusion in reverse due to having it happen to them that they were targeted for their existence since they weren't organics. And despite the evidence to the contrary, they were still targeted for persecution and annihilation. And they can see how synthetic life is regarded in the galaxy. They want nothing to do with it, and they want the outside galaxy to have nothing to do with them.

 

I think you're misrepresenting or misunderstanding the problem. The problem isn't that the Geth are open to coexistence. It's that they aren't. They haven't seen anything to ever suggest otherwise. Ever. Dignitaries or no, they believe it's hypocritical at best and deceptive at worst. They're content to leave things as they are and exist on their own, outside the sphere of galactic influence and organics. They're going to maintain their border because they don't want any organic to threaten them. And I believe they are 100% justified in it. 

 

The Geth aren't said roadblock. They've made up their mind, and rightfully so (in fact, you can go ahead and call it peaceful that they aren't leaving the Perseus Veil and attacking the galaxy.) There is no road to block until Shepard comes along. And once he does come along, the ball is kicked out from the sidelines and into the Quarian court. Where it doesn't leave.

[DeinonSlayer]

It is a one way street. It's not the Geth that are the roadblock here. And yes, it does go all the way back to the Quarians. I can see who the Civilians elected as their leader. And I can see who the military has as their leader, the guy who's got the real power and the fleet to back him up. 
 
As I've said, the Geth aren't actively campaigning for peace. I'm not saying that they're looking for it. They aren't. They believe in it, but they don't believe that it's going to happen. That's why they're so focused on maintaining their defense. And it's all from the organics, who don't do much of a job to paint another picture of themselves for the Geth. How the hell else are the Geth supposed to respond? The organics reach said conclusion you've stated, long after the Geth arrived at that conclusion in reverse due to having it happen to them that they were targeted for their existence since they weren't organics. And despite the evidence to the contrary, they were still targeted for persecution and annihilation. And they can see how synthetic life is regarded in the galaxy. They want nothing to do with it, and they want the outside galaxy to have nothing to do with them.
 
I think you're misrepresenting or misunderstanding the problem. The problem isn't that the Geth are open to coexistence. It's that they aren't. They haven't seen anything to ever suggest otherwise. Ever. Dignitaries or no, they believe it's hypocritical at best and deceptive at worst. They're content to leave things as they are and exist on their own, outside the sphere of galactic influence and organics. They're going to maintain their border because they don't want any organic to threaten them. And I believe they are 100% justified in it. 
 
The Geth aren't said roadblock. They've made up their mind, and rightfully so (in fact, you can go ahead and call it peaceful that they aren't leaving the Perseus Veil and attacking the galaxy.) There is no road to block until Shepard comes along. And once he does come along, the ball is kicked out from the sidelines and into the Quarian court. Where it doesn't leave.

S: "Maybe it's time for your people to let go of taking your world back from the Geth."
T: "You have no idea what it's like! You have a planet to go back to. My home is one hull breach away from extinction!"
S: "If your people feel that way, then why haven't you prepared for war?"
T: "Just like that? Can you imagine the complexities of taking your entire society into war? And too many people are afraid, or comfortable, or guilt-ridden over whether we were cruel to the Geth. So we've done nothing."

Seems like a stalemate to me. The thing that changed, that lit a fire under their asses, wasn't the slow decay of the fleet, or the heretics, or some new Council edict making their situation less liveable than it already was - it was the imminent Reaper attack. They couldn't afford to float around wallowing in inherited guilt anymore, not if they wanted to survive. Maybe things would have been different if the Geth had sent their message to a more general audience. Thanks to their continued silence, only a small handful of people in the entire galaxy are aware that the Geth aren't a Reaper proxy faction (even after making peace, allied soldiers continue to shoot at them by mistake per Liara's terminal). Passing a few notes back and forth with a single person and then cutting her off and going silent once again was too little, far too late.

As to the justification you give to their silence, remember when the Council destroyed the Virtual Aliens' ark ship on sight? Wait, no, they didn't. Remember when they categorically outlawed the development of artificial intelligence? No, wait, they give organizations like Synthetic Insights a waiver to do that. You say the Geth can't be expected to accept any dialogue until a "favorable environment" exists, but provide no parameters for what constitutes a favorable environment. The Geth haven't exactly put on a public relations campaign either, what with ignoring the heretics and all. How exactly do they expect organics to view them? How do they expect this favorable environment to come about when they're once again actively giving people a reason to hate them? Like it or not, they're just as responsible for their present situation, and they've done nothing to improve it.

They could have flooded the extranet with the warning about the Reapers. They could have flooded the extranet with their denunciation of the heretics' actions. They could have quietly reached out to the Council, or the Migrant Fleet, or just about any individual whom they studied and thought maybe, just maybe, might be amenable to their cause. They didn't do any of that, but they did troll some Salarians with a fake constellation and rack up an impressive kill count in N7 Code of Honor: Medal of Duty. Seems to me they're far more likely to face military retribution for the heretics' actions by doing nothing and letting the galaxy believe they and the heretics are the same entity than they would be for opening up and talking for the first time in centuries. But as you said, they aren't open to co-existence. The Geth are free to act as they choose, you're free to sympathize with them and their reasons all you like, but I see them as accountable for their actions just like anybody else.

I think the Quarians are 100% justified to want the planet they depend on for their own survival back, especially with their backs against the wall as they were. Would I have liked an alternative to war? Of course. Shepard's time would have been better served by taking Legion straight back to the Migrant Fleet and ironing out this mess (or vice versa) instead of sitting in a cell doing nothing. And as I've said, peace without conflict would have been far easier to achieve had the Geth engaged in communication and (preferably) not built their sphere in that system in the first place.

Ideally, I'd want to see the Quarians back on Rannoch without war and without Reaper code. If the Geth have that big a stick up their butts about it, though, by all means leave Rannoch in their hands - what the Quarians need, at the most basic level, is a planet they can survive on long-term in the event that their fleet doesn't survive the war to come back for them (hence why they can't dump everyone off on some airless moon or one of the multiple dextro worlds we read about with virulent native diseases). That is to say, a planet, and the plants and microorganisms from their native ecosystem to populate it (unless the Salarians are still around and willing to spend centuries fiddling with their genetic code to remove their dependency on those plants, after changing the law to allow the alterations of course). It'd be easiest to keep them in their native environment, but they might be able to be transplanted. Somebody call William Bligh.

[KaiserShep]

In their position, humanity would probably have bombed the sh*t out of them. Inheriting the mistakes of your ancestors doesn't leave a whole lot of options.

[Hazegurl]

Didn't Tali try to get the Quarian Admirals to make peace with the Geth yet they refused? sure they may have attacked the Geth early in the war to secure their homeworld but it was a waste of time and resources considering that near the end of the war they were still stuck fighting the Geth. If it was really so easy to reclaim their homeworld they would have done it 300 years ago. The fact remains is that only one Admiral wanted peace, two if you count Tali. The rest didn't. Not seeing how that is the Geth's fault.

[KaiserShep]

Actually, if it weren't for the reapers, the quarians would have succeeded and the geth would either be wiped out, or subjugated by Xen.

[DeinonSlayer]

Didn't Tali try to get the Quarian Admirals to make peace with the Geth yet they refused? sure they may have attacked the Geth early in the war to secure their homeworld but it was a waste of time and resources considering that near the end of the war they were still stuck fighting the Geth. If it was really so easy to reclaim their homeworld they would have done it 300 years ago. The fact remains is that only one Admiral wanted peace, two if you count Tali. The rest didn't. Not seeing how that is the Geth's fault.

We've been over this (and no, incidentally, Legion specifically rejects the notion that the Geth view Rannoch as "home"). I'm not going to repeat everything I said in the last few pages; we've gone far enough off-topic as it is.

[Xilizhra]

Actually, if it weren't for the reapers, the quarians would have succeeded and the geth would either be wiped out, or subjugated by Xen.

Yet another reason why the geth need the Reaper code, to prevent the quarians from trying it again.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

S: "Maybe it's time for your people to let go of taking your world back from the Geth."
T: "You have no idea what it's like! You have a planet to go back to. My home is one hull breach away from extinction!"
S: "If your people feel that way, then why haven't you prepared for war?"
T: "Just like that? Can you imagine the complexities of taking your entire society into war? And too many people are afraid, or comfortable, or guilt-ridden over whether we were cruel to the Geth. So we've done nothing."

Seems like a stalemate to me. The thing that changed, that lit a fire under their asses, wasn't the slow decay of the fleet, or the heretics, or some new Council edict making their situation less liveable than it already was - it was the imminent Reaper attack. They couldn't afford to float around wallowing in inherited guilt anymore, not if they wanted to survive. Maybe things would have been different if the Geth had sent their message to a more general audience. Thanks to their continued silence, only a small handful of people in the entire galaxy are aware that the Geth aren't a Reaper proxy faction (even after making peace, allied soldiers continue to shoot at them by mistake per Liara's terminal). Passing a few notes back and forth with a single person and then cutting her off and going silent once again was too little, far too late.

As to the justification you give to their silence, remember when the Council destroyed the Virtual Aliens' ark ship on sight? Wait, no, they didn't. Remember when they categorically outlawed the development of artificial intelligence? No, wait, they give organizations like Synthetic Insights a waiver to do that. You say the Geth can't be expected to accept any dialogue until a "favorable environment" exists, but provide no parameters for what constitutes a favorable environment. The Geth haven't exactly put on a public relations campaign either, what with ignoring the heretics and all. How exactly do they expect organics to view them? How do they expect this favorable environment to come about when they're once again actively giving people a reason to hate them? Like it or not, they're just as responsible for their present situation, and they've done nothing to improve it.

They could have flooded the extranet with the warning about the Reapers. They could have flooded the extranet with their denunciation of the heretics' actions. They could have quietly reached out to the Council, or the Migrant Fleet, or just about any individual whom they studied and thought maybe, just maybe, might be amenable to their cause. They didn't do any of that, but they did troll some Salarians with a fake constellation and rack up an impressive kill count in N7 Code of Honor: Medal of Duty. Seems to me they're far more likely to face military retribution for the heretics' actions by doing nothing and letting the galaxy believe they and the heretics are the same entity than they would be for opening up and talking for the first time in centuries. But as you said, they aren't open to co-existence. The Geth are free to act as they choose, you're free to sympathize with them and their reasons all you like, but I see them as accountable for their actions just like anybody else.

I think the Quarians are 100% justified to want the planet they depend on for their own survival back, especially with their backs against the wall as they were. Would I have liked an alternative to war? Of course. Shepard's time would have been better served by taking Legion straight back to the Migrant Fleet and ironing out this mess (or vice versa) instead of sitting in a cell doing nothing. And as I've said, peace without conflict would have been far easier to achieve had the Geth engaged in communication and (preferably) not built their sphere in that system in the first place.

Ideally, I'd want to see the Quarians back on Rannoch without war and without Reaper code. If the Geth have that big a stick up their butts about it, though, by all means leave Rannoch in their hands - what the Quarians need, at the most basic level, is a planet they can survive on long-term in the event that their fleet doesn't survive the war to come back for them (hence why they can't dump everyone off on some airless moon or one of the multiple dextro worlds we read about with virulent native diseases). That is to say, a planet, and the plants and microorganisms from their native ecosystem to populate it (unless the Salarians are still around and willing to spend centuries fiddling with their genetic code to remove their dependency on those plants, after changing the law to allow the alterations of course). It'd be easiest to keep them in their native environment, but they might be able to be transplanted. Somebody call William Bligh.

 

I'll have to get back on this since I'm not available to use a computer, but we're going to come to stark separate conclusions, I know that. 

 

This is going to be anger-borne: Hell, it's by my own mercy that I even allow the Quarians to survive at all, when I feel the universe is a better place with them gone.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Yet another reason why the geth need the Reaper code, to prevent the quarians from trying it again.

 

I'd sooner the Geth had the code than be taken out with Quarians in their place. I honestly don't believe the Quarians would be desirable to the Geth, even when Hackett mentions that supply ships are on a shortage. I don't see how rickety, giant, rust bucket ships one hull puncture away from crumpling like a burning tissue paper are preferable to the Geth's ability to make advanced multi-function warships that have cutting edge weaponry and the ability to deliver supplies and resources at once, and at a premium capability. Utility wise, the Geth have the Quarians trumped in every single category I can think of, be it combat, transportation, or logistics. They're even more useful as cannon fodder than the Quarians. As my Shepard who punched out Gerrel says to Raan "If I didn't need your fleet..." 

 

I'd have left the Quarians to their fate and considered it a favor to the universe.

[KaiserShep]

Yet another reason why the geth need the Reaper code, to prevent the quarians from trying it again.

Well that's really why the no-code option on Rannoch idea that's been tossed around these parts in the past isn't particularly viable.

[Xilizhra]

I'd sooner the Geth had the code than be taken out with Quarians in their place. I honestly don't believe the Quarians would be desirable to the Geth, even when Hackett mentions that supply ships are on a shortage. I don't see how rickety, giant, rust bucket ships one hull puncture away from crumpling like a burning tissue paper are preferable to the Geth's ability to make advanced multi-function warships that have cutting edge weaponry and the ability to deliver supplies and resources at once, and at a premium capability. Utility wise, the Geth have the Quarians trumped in every single category I can think of, be it combat, transportation, or logistics. They're even more useful as cannon fodder than the Quarians. As my Shepard who punched out Gerrel says to Raan "If I didn't need your fleet..." 

 

I'd have left the Quarians to their fate and considered it a favor to the universe.

Well, if you destroy the heretics, the quarians are objectively more useful than the geth. As for why that is, it might be because the quarians in that case would have destroyed a very sizable chunk of the geth power base, perhaps doing greater damage to the Dyson sphere and permanently erasing even more programs, leaving the geth being just above breaking even after the Reapers came in to help them, and leaving them somewhat staggered even if they survive the war.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Well, if you destroy the heretics, the quarians are objectively more useful than the geth. As for why that is, it might be because the quarians in that case would have destroyed a very sizable chunk of the geth power base, perhaps doing greater damage to the Dyson sphere and permanently erasing even more programs, leaving the geth being just above breaking even after the Reapers came in to help them, and leaving them somewhat staggered even if they survive the war.

 

I always rewrite them. I planned to have the Geth make up a strong portion of my fleet in ME3. 

[AlanC9]

Saren hated humans. A lot. A lot lot. A really really lot lot lot.
 
With indoctrination, ironically (or appropriately), he THEN had greater acceptance of humanity and trying to 'save them' along with everyone else.
 
But pre Sovereign especially, from what I've read (game and book), racist. Racccistttttt. Big time.

I guess this is proof that Synthesis will make us better people, eh?

[KaiserShep]

Synthesis is a hell of a drug.