642 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

I'll have to get back on this since I'm not available to use a computer, but we're going to come to stark separate conclusions, I know that.

This is going to be anger-borne: Hell, it's by my own mercy that I even allow the Quarians to survive at all, when I feel the universe is a better place with them gone.

Boy, I can tell this'll go somewhere productive...

I'll save you some time, being as we both know we've already come to starkly separate conclusions and have massively derailed this thread. We disagree on who's responsible for what, but when you drill straight down to it, the only thing that matters is which side better serves the war effort. The ideal would be to get both on board, but when forced to choose sides, you and I land on different sides.

I acknowledge the Geth are the superior combat force. I dispute their ability when it comes to logistics (there's more to it than just pumping air in - their ships would require major retrofits to service organics). I'm certain you disagree on that score as well.

What kills it, for me, is trust. In light of their actions both past and present (including lying habitually), I barely trust them, even with Legion present. Reaper code is the straw that broke the camel's back. I make peace when I can, but if it weren't for meta-knowledge that the code isn't going to turn their whole fleet against us the second another Reaper comes in broadcast range, I would side with the Quarians and call it a day. I want the Geth's resources, yes, and I'd prefer to avoid the extinction of either species (hell, Geth extinction wasn't even a possibility in the rewrite I put together, but shooting Quarians was - this isn't even factoring in my peace-without-code writeup in the canon framework), but the last thing we need is to blow away a fleet of avowed allies only for the ally we get in their place to go Rachni Breeder on us. If I can't trust them, they're useless to me. Code or no code, they've already thrown in their lot with the Reapers twice.

You place all responsibility for the Geth's actions over the last three centuries on the Quarians' shoulders (which I dispute), see them as the superior force (which I see as valid), and put more faith in their loyalty than in the Quarians, thanks largely to Admiral Gerrel (insert ten pages of headbutting over the dreadnought and relay transit retcon here). Your solution is valid for you. My solution is valid for me. Either way, I'm pretty sure we both get the high-EMS endings.

*sigh* Shepard should have addressed this in the six months between ME2 and 3.

[Xilizhra]

*sigh* Shepard should have addressed this in the six months between ME2 and 3.

Blame the Alliance for that one, sadly. I don't like Cerberus, but I'd just as soon have not gone back to the Alliance either.

[KaiserShep]

Trouble is, the alliance still needs to be on board anyway, and if Shepard didn't go back, there's literally no one else to go to. The quarians are busy preparing for the geth, Omega is useless, the batarians are screwed and overrun with indoctrinated agents, Cerberus is going batshit stuffing their heads with reaper madness. In the end, chance had it that the alliance would be the one to start building the crucible, but if Shepard didn't go back, Cerberus would've wiped out the archives and killed the galaxy along with it.

[DeinonSlayer]

Trouble is, the alliance still needs to be on board anyway, and if Shepard didn't go back, there's literally no one else to go to. The quarians are busy preparing for the geth, Omega is useless, the batarians are screwed and overrun with indoctrinated agents, Cerberus is going batshit stuffing their heads with reaper madness. In the end, chance had it that the alliance would be the one to start building the crucible, but if Shepard didn't go back, Cerberus would've wiped out the archives and killed the galaxy along with it.

Not all is lost. If Mars falls, it all comes down to whether Asari High Command decides to cough up their beacon.

...on second thought, you're right. All is lost.

[Han Shot First]

Reading the last few pages really makes me hope that Bioware portrays politicians in a more balanced fashion in the sequel.

 

Nearly every politician in the series, whether they belong to the Council, the Asari Republics, the Salarian Union, or the Quarian Admiralty, is portrayed as either a bumbling incompetent or an antagonistic douche. Two of the exceptions, Anderson and Wrex, are more warrior than politician. I get that people generally have a cynical view of their politicial leadership today, but Bioware was more than a little heavy-handed with that.

[Barquiel]

You're right, the political leaders in the ME universe are not particularly helpful. But I can see where they're coming from (at least sometimes).

"Wake up! Aliens will come and destroy us!" is simply hard to believe if there is no solid evidence other than Shepard's word and a confusing jumble of images. And "Let's build this device that nobody knows what it does, or where it's from. And send all our forces to Earth!"...one could argue that the council's scepticism is at least somewhat understandable.

But when it comes to the council's amnesia in ME2 (I know the writers tried to explain it in citadel, still doesn't make any sense), Udina's coup or the Quarian Admiralty I agree with you, of course.

[SwobyJ]

I guess this is proof that Synthesis will make us better people, eh?

 

 

Synthesis is a hell of a drug.

 

Both.

 

('Better' as in 'universally better'. You'll do what you think benefits the farthest reaches of known existence - not just those you've made cooperation, competition, and closer familiarity with.

 

Saren, if we take his and the Catalyst's words as truth, along with Synthesis' EC result literally - broke a few eggs to try to make his omelet. One of his flaws was that he gave up the fight too soon. He was probably never going to be helped much, but maybe Collectorfied. The Reapers are not interested in us keeping most of what we are, in the postorganic transition. They're totally fine with organic matter and intelligence-signatures just.. existing, and that's it.

It took the Crucible, seemingly originally designed as a weapon *against* the Reapers, and to constrain the Reaper Intelligence from turning the situation to its advantage, to keep the Reapers from making the galaxy follow their rules and another crappy merging between organic and synthetic.

 

Saren wasn't idealistically wrong. Man and machine, at some point, somewhere, somehow, will end up intertwined. His problem was that he was being controlled; his indoctrination-infused idealism blinding him to the truth of his situation and what was in store for a galaxy under the thumb of robotic Old Gods that actively resent others and a guiding collective Intelligence that places itself far above the concerns of others as well.)

[themikefest]

You're right, the political leaders in the ME universe are not particularly helpful. But I can see where they're coming from (at least sometimes).

"Wake up! Aliens will come and destroy us!" is simply hard to believe if there is no solid evidence other than Shepard's word and a confusing jumble of images. And "Let's build this device that nobody knows what it does, or where it's from. And send all our forces to Earth!"...one could argue that the council's scepticism is at least somewhat understandable.

But when it comes to the council's amnesia in ME2 (I know the writers tried to explain it in citadel, still doesn't make any sense), Udina's coup or the Quarian Admiralty I agree with you, of course.

The bolded part

 

The Asari councillor knew Shepard's visions were caused from a Prothean beacon. I'm surprised that she didn't ask  her own government if they knew what it meant and if they could help since the Asari are top scholars in studying the Protheans and possibly reveal the beacon on their homeworld that might help explain Shepard's vision's even though we eventually learn what they mean as the story moves forward. Or better yet, have the Asari councilor mind meld with Shepard

 

For me the coup would've made more sense if the coup and Thessia missions were switched

[Han Shot First]

You're right, the political leaders in the ME universe are not particularly helpful. But I can see where they're coming from (at least sometimes).

"Wake up! Aliens will come and destroy us!" is simply hard to believe if there is no solid evidence other than Shepard's word and a confusing jumble of images. And "Let's build this device that nobody knows what it does, or where it's from. And send all our forces to Earth!"...one could argue that the council's scepticism is at least somewhat understandable.

But when it comes to the council's amnesia in ME2 (I know the writers tried to explain it in citadel, still doesn't make any sense), Udina's coup or the Quarian Admiralty I agree with you, of course.

 

With ME2 I think the writers dropped the ball a bit. I understand why they had the Council return to air quoting Shepard, as they needed a reason to force Shepard into working with Cerberus. But I think they had better options of going about that without also having the Council backtrack and look like ostriches with their heads in the sand.

 

I think it would have played out better if the Council instead continued to accept that the Reapers were real post-ME1, but differed with Shepard on the allocation of resources. Have the war with the Geth still be raging at full steam instead of the Geth pulling a disappearing act after the Battle of the Citadel. Meanwhile isolated colonies out in the Terminus start disappearing. Shepard becomes convinced that the colonists disappearing is linked to the Reapers, the Council disagrees, chalks it up to pirates and slavers, and argues that allocating resources to the Terminus would be a distraction from the real threat...the Reaper-aligned Geth. To give the Council reason to doubt the Reaper-connection, have the disappearances be much smaller in scale. Instead of tens or hundreds of thousands of people disappearing, the vanishing colonies only contain a few hundred people...enough to be conceivably rounded up by roving bands of pirates and slavers.

 

Shepard's break with the Council then would not be because the Council went back to air quoting "LOL Reapers," but because they disagreed with Shepard on the focus of the war effort. Shepard of course is ultimately proved right, but the Council's disagreement with him (or her) appears more rational and understandable, and despite the disagreement they remain focused on dealing with the Reapers. Victories against the Geth also protect organic worlds and shipping routes, even if the Collectors pose a greater danger in the long run.

[Dean_the_Young]

Reading the last few pages really makes me hope that Bioware portrays politicians in a more balanced fashion in the sequel.

 

Nearly every politician in the series, whether they belong to the Council, the Asari Republics, the Salarian Union, or the Quarian Admiralty, is portrayed as either a bumbling incompetent or an antagonistic douche. Two of the exceptions, Anderson and Wrex, are more warrior than politician. I get that people generally have a cynical view of their politicial leadership today, but Bioware was more than a little heavy-handed with that.

Or, as I once wrote...

 

Mass Effect: A love letter for Fascism.

[Sir DeLoria]

This is going to be anger-borne: Hell, it's by my own mercy that I even allow the Quarians to survive at all, when I feel the universe is a better place with them gone.

Why though? I mean they're just a race like any other. Sure, their leaders have made mistakes in the past, but it's not like that's a genetic thing. Just sounds pretty harsh to kill an entire species without any necessity.

[DeinonSlayer]

Reading the last few pages really makes me hope that Bioware portrays politicians in a more balanced fashion in the sequel.
 
Nearly every politician in the series, whether they belong to the Council, the Asari Republics, the Salarian Union, or the Quarian Admiralty, is portrayed as either a bumbling incompetent or an antagonistic douche. Two of the exceptions, Anderson and Wrex, are more warrior than politician. I get that people generally have a cynical view of their politicial leadership today, but Bioware was more than a little heavy-handed with that.

And even at that, Anderson was more "the guy who blows smoke up your ass" than "the guy who gets things done."

[Aimi]

Or, as I once wrote...
 
Mass Effect: A love letter for Fascism.

Whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Military dictatorships and Fascism are way not the same thing. They actually have very little overlap.

[Dean_the_Young]

Whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Military dictatorships and Fascism are way not the same thing. They actually have very little overlap.

I know. It was an outrageously hyperbolic rant for shock value. Fun, but never believing itself to be academically accurate.

[TheMyron]

Militarism is more like it. Not Fascism.

 

Imperial Japan for example, during the War, the generals had more power than the Emperor himself; hence, Militarism.

[TheMyron]

How does one get the Quote bubble? It doesn't appear whenever I quote someone.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Militarism is more like it. Not Fascism.

 

Imperial Japan for example, during the War, the generals had more power than the Emperor himself; hence, Militarism.

 

That's not necessarily militarism. Militarism often goes hand in hand with imperialism, or expansionism and heavy support for the military in which most problems are solved in a militaristic manner. Plus, I wouldn't say that Hirohito was necessarily mercy to the whims of the Imperial Japanese Army. A lot of that idea was concocted by MacArthur and his staff to make the Emperor look a lot more innocent than he really was, mostly for the benefit of the Japanese people. Having it come out that the Emperor was indeed responsible for legitimizing war atrocities and possibly subject to International scrutiny and trial would have been a terrible psychological blow to the Japanese people, and likely would have instigated an insurgency as Japanese citizens would attack American occupiers (whom they greatly outnumbered).

[Farangbaa]

That's not necessarily militarism. Militarism often goes hand in hand with imperialism, or expansionism and heavy support for the military in which most problems are solved in a militaristic manner. Plus, I wouldn't say that Hirohito was necessarily mercy to the whims of the Imperial Japanese Army. A lot of that idea was concocted by MacArthur and his staff to make the Emperor look a lot more innocent than he really was, mostly for the benefit of the Japanese people. Having it come out that the Emperor was indeed responsible for legitimizing war atrocities and possibly subject to International scrutiny and trial would have been a terrible psychological blow to the Japanese people, and likely would have instigated an insurgency as Japanese citizens would attack American occupiers (whom they greatly outnumbered).

 

Also bear in mind that the Allied forces wanted Hirohito to remain in power, the Soviets didn't.

 

Apparantly, this was a bigger reason to capitulate to the Allied forces than the nuclear bombs ever were: capitulating to the Allied forces meant that the Imperial Court would keep it's position and power. Had they waited longer the Soviets would've invaded Japan and occupied the country, most likely killing the court.

 

Back to the point at hand: making Hirohito look 'good' made it more acceptable that he and his court remained in 'power'. (between parentheses because the power was obviously diminished to the point where he is just a ceremonial figurehead who puts his signature under legislation)

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Also bear in mind that the Allied forces wanted Hirohito to remain in power, the Soviets didn't.

 

Apparantly, this was a bigger reason to capitulate to the Allied forces than the nuclear bombs ever were: capitulating to the Allied forces meant that the Imperial Court would keep it's position and power. Had they waited longer the Soviets would've invaded Japan and occupied the country, most likely killing the court.

 

Back to the point at hand: making Hirohito look 'good' made it more acceptable that he and his court remained in 'power'. (between parentheses because the power was obviously diminished to the point where he is just a ceremonial figurehead who puts his signature under legislation)

 

As I said, one of the main reasons we wanted to keep him on the throne was to ensure compliance from the Japanese people; It was already humiliating enough to have their Emperor-deity stripped of his divinity, having much of their culture deconstructed, and having been beaten into raw submission had definitely taken its toll.

[Han Shot First]

How does one get the Quote bubble? It doesn't appear whenever I quote someone.

 

It is a bug with certain versions of Internet Explorer. If you switch to another broswer like Firefox or Chrome it should work.

[Steelcan]

I swear this thread was about something else.....

 

 

genophage maybe?

[CynicalShep]

Ah, this again. Bring justafan here and we'll lap up another 20-25 pages of "Geth are teh antichrist and Quarians are all murderers". Back on the actual topic - it's funny how we're all about freedom of speech and open mindedness but are quick to throw rocks at people whose opinions differ from ours. Even if Ashley HATES aliens (pro tip: she doesn't) why would you care? Who are you to tell her what and who to love? Hell, I hate most humanity but you don't see me torching random people in the street, as much as they suck. As long as her actions don't actually end up hurting the aforementioned aliens she is free to think whatever she wants about them.
Ya'll motherlovers need Andraste.

[Hazegurl]

Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from judgement. People have a right to express themselves and everyone has a right to agree or disagree...I could take it a step further and say that we also have the right to make her kiss that bomb on Virmire for whatever reason we choose.

[KaiserShep]

Ah, this again. Bring justafan here and we'll lap up another 20-25 pages of "Geth are teh antichrist and Quarians are all murderers". Back on the actual topic - it's funny how we're all about freedom of speech and open mindedness but are quick to throw rocks at people whose opinions differ from ours. Even if Ashley HATES aliens (pro tip: she doesn't) why would you care? Who are you to tell her what and who to love? Hell, I hate most humanity but you don't see me torching random people in the street, as much as they suck. As long as her actions don't actually end up hurting the aforementioned aliens she is free to think whatever she wants about them.

 

It's almost as if Ashley went around spouting epithets about the aliens, calling Garrus a lousy bird, krogan a gorillasaurus and every salarian we see Michigan J. Frog.

 

 

Ya'll motherlovers need Andraste.

I should use this as my sig.

[dreamgazer]

Ya'll motherlovers need Andraste.

Preach.