642 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

"I can't tell the difference between the animals and the aliens!"

 

Sorry, what were you lying?

Massively, are you drunk again? 

[jtav]

Like I said in the other thread, it's understandable for someone who never saw a hanar before to perhaps not realize they're dealing with a sophont until some form of communication takes place. The way the lore puts it, there are far, far more species on the Citadel than are depicted in-game. People would have pets (Bailey talks about poodles crapping on the grass as one of the frivolities the Presidium deals with). It's an honest observation. She doesn't condescend to known sophonts or pretend humanity is superior.

Gotta be thankful for handwave translators. The only way you'd know an elcor was speaking to you would be a subtle change in the odor it puts off. Seems an exceedingly inefficient form of communication; I don't think BW put much thought into it. Can they only speak to one of their own kind who is downwind, less than ten feet away? Would they even have radio?

From what I gather, elcor do speak but 95% of the meaning is conveyed through scent and slight movement. But there is a verbal aspect.

[RanetheViking]

Jebus. Not this again.

 

I don't know or care if she's racist.  I just don't like her.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Lying? Lol

 

Uh, yeah I don't see whats racist about that statement. She's making an observation. She can't tell the difference. 

 

Denial is a great tool. Anyone can say that something is or is not something. 

 

It's a racist remark. If she can't tell the difference, then she's not trying to see the difference.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Massively, are you drunk again? 

 

I may be drunk, but Ashley had a racist comment.

 

And tomorrow, I'll be sober, and Ashley will have still said a racist comment.

[DeinonSlayer]

Denial is a great tool. Anyone can say that something is or is not something. 
 
It's a racist remark. If she can't tell the difference, then she's not trying to see the difference.

Did you see my last post by any chance?

[Sir DeLoria]

I may be drunk, but Ashley had a racist comment.
 
And tomorrow, I'll be sober, and Ashley will have still said a racist comment.

Hehe, nice adapted Churchill quote. I also like the Vonnegut reference in your avi.

Geez Massively, since when are you so deep?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Did you see my last post by any chance?

 

I did, and there's nothing in the game to suggest that there are very many other species that are seen in the game to suggest otherwise. And the Hanar would be rather easy to make out. I highly doubt, especially this much time after humanity has integrated into the galactic society, that Ashley would unknowingly mistake a Hanar as a non-sapient being. At most, it's very misinformed insensitivity. At worst, it's a direct comparison to aliens being animals.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Hehe, nice adapted Churchill quote. I also like the Vonnegut reference in your avi.

Geez Massively, since when are you so deep?

 

That's not Vonnegut.

 

That's James Hunt.

[Fixers0]

I did, and there's nothing in the game to suggest that there are very many other species that are seen in the game to suggest otherwise. And the Hanar would be rather easy to make out. I highly doubt, especially this much time after humanity has integrated into the galactic society, that Ashley would unknowingly mistake a Hanar as a non-sapient being. At most, it's very misinformed insensitivity. At worst, it's a direct comparison to aliens being animals.

 

Or maybe she just has poor eyesight.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Or maybe she just has poor eyesight.

 

Nope, can't be that, since there's a little schpeel about how she had her vision corrected in utero.

[Sir DeLoria]

That's not Vonnegut.
 
That's James Hunt.

When did Hunt put on this sticker?

Vonnegut wrote his book in '73.

[zestalyn]

The more I read these threads the more I think the real question people are debating over is "Is Ashley kind of douchey?". Actively racist or not, you'd have to be some kind of a...uh, person to just spit nasty remarks like those without thinking (the monster comment, youre not even our species comment, stfu Liara youre not in charge comment. Like girl, chill out) I was really liking Ash upon getting to know her in my first playthrough, but the more her attitude problem showed...well, the easier it became to pick the Virmire survivor lol... 
 

Been some time since I played second game. Where does Jacob says that and whom about?

I believe they are referring to the dialogue when FemShep chooses to dump Jacob for Garrus. Jacob says with indignation," That cuttlebone?". Cuttlebone probably referring to the bony carapaces of turians. Such a classy gentleman. 

[Fixers0]

Nope, can't be that, since there's a little schpeel about how she had her vision corrected in utero.

 

Irrelevant to my argument, though. You can't guess intent based on a singular piece of dialogue.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Irrelevant to my argument, though. You can't guess intent based on a singular piece of dialogue.

 

Your argument was that it was poor eyesight. I just told you how it wasn't poor eyesight. Now you're backtracking. You've changed your argument.

 

And I have quite a bit more than just one singular piece of dialogue. If that dialogue piece was all I had, there wouldn't have been two threads in the last week addressing the issue of Ashley's racism.

[Iakus]

I may be drunk, but Ashley had a racist comment.

 

And tomorrow, I'll be sober, and Ashley will have still said a racist comment.

 

Somehow I suspect you're wrong on both counts 

 

I did, and there's nothing in the game to suggest that there are very many other species that are seen in the game to suggest otherwise. And the Hanar would be rather easy to make out. I highly doubt, especially this much time after humanity has integrated into the galactic society, that Ashley would unknowingly mistake a Hanar as a non-sapient being. At most, it's very misinformed insensitivity. At worst, it's a direct comparison to aliens being animals.

 

Except Ashley's not referring to hanar, but to Keepers, whom nobody knows if they are sentient or not.  Hanar, as well as elcor, rachni, etc serve to illustrate that some aliens do in fact resemble terrestrial animals.  If a pyjak starts jabbering at you, is it just an animal, or is it an alien and your translator's not working?

[DeinonSlayer]

Except Ashley's not referring to hanar, but to Keepers, whom nobody knows if they are sentient or not.  Hanar, as well as elcor, rachni, etc serve to illustrate that some aliens do in fact resemble terrestrial animals.  If a pyjak starts jabbering at you, is it just an animal, or is it an alien and your translator's not working?

It's sitting on a crate staring at you! Quick, punch it!

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Somehow I suspect you're wrong on both counts 

 

 

Except Ashley's not referring to hanar, but to Keepers, whom nobody knows if they are sentient or not.  Hanar, as well as elcor, rachni, etc serve to illustrate that some aliens do in fact resemble terrestrial animals.  If a pyjak starts jabbering at you, is it just an animal, or is it an alien and your translator's not working?

 

I'm not wrong on both counts. 

 

That's headcanon on your part. And Ashley ought to know the difference and history of each species this late after the integration of humanity into galactic affairs. If she doesn't, then yes, that's a failing on her part and wherever she originated from. I highly doubt that this is the case. Which makes me conclude that she's being intentionally derogatory, since she ought to be able to know what species are what. Which makes me conclude that she has at least semi-racist/bigoted beliefs.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Well hey, let's find some common ground here. 

In the beginning she was a bigot, but then she grows as a person. 

Isn't that what really matters?

To quote Paarthurnax "What is better -  to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort."

[DeinonSlayer]

I'm not wrong on both counts.

That's headcanon on your part. And Ashley ought to know the difference and history of each species this late after the integration of humanity into galactic affairs. If she doesn't, then yes, that's a failing on her part and wherever she originated from. I highly doubt that this is the case. Which makes me conclude that she's being intentionally derogatory, since she ought to be able to know what species are what. Which makes me conclude that she has at least semi-racist/bigoted beliefs.

I agree she should know by that point... but then, so should Shepard. The dope doesn't even know what a VI is if we're going by the dialogue options available. When talking with Wrex about the Genophage and Tali about the Geth, our only options are to make insulting or bluntly ignorant statements and get corrected for it. It seems to me that this was supposed to be Shepard and Ashley (possibly Kaidan's) first trip to the Citadel. The writing was made with first-time players in mind who have no knowledge of the universe. In-universe, people in these characters' positions would have received some kind of education about this first if only to avoid a potential Leela-and-the-Pobblers scenario.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I agree she should know by that point... but then, so should Shepard. The dope doesn't even know what a VI is if we're going by the dialogue options available. When talking with Wrex about the Genophage and Tali about the Geth, our only options are to make insulting or bluntly ignorant statements and get corrected for it. It seems to me that this was supposed to be Shepard and Ashley (possibly Kaidan's) first trip to the Citadel. The writing was made with first-time players in mind who have no knowledge of the universe. In-universe, people in these characters' positions would have received some kind of education about this first if only to avoid a potential Leela-and-the-Pobblers scenario.

 

I would say that's the case for Shepard, not Ashley. I think the intent was to give her some kind of personal issue with them.

 

Whether you see her problems as coming from a Freudian excuse or petty blame shifting (which is what I believe) is up to you.

[ahsari2014]

If a North Korean official were to visit the United States, to say that "I don't trust him because he is North Korean", that would be correct.
 
But is it because:
 
A.) As a Korean, he is a member of the Mongoloid Race, an Oriental, someone with almond-shaped eyes, etc.?
 
or
 
B.) As a North Korean official, he is undoubtedly a member of the Communist Party, which in turn has built itself a reputation of heavy persecution coupled with mass murder/genocide.
 
'A' would make one a "racist", while 'B' is merely "political distrust".
 
Same thing with Ashley and her distrust of Garrus; she doesn't trust him because he is a Turian.
 
But is it because:
 
A.) As a Turian, he is a reptilian bird-like creature, basically a humanoid velociraptor.
 
or
 
B.) As a Turian, he was born and raised in Militaristic hierarchy which didn't exactly start off on the right foot with Mankind; the massacre of a bunch of innocent and unarmed scientists followed shortly by the invasion and occupation of Shanxi has given the Turian people the reputation of "Shoot first, shoot later, shoot some more, and then when everybody's dead, don't even bother trying to ask a question or two, simply jump to conclusions". Not to mention that Garrus is a rogue ex-cop on a military ship.
 
As for Wrex, hey, he is only a ruthless mercenary who tells you to your face that he would try to kill you if someone paid him the right price. A mercenary on a military ship.
 
Ashley's distrust is clearly for the latter of these two options, Hence, I say NO, she is NOT a racist!

she is very defensive. She has an attitude . She has sisters who she loves very much and she guards over them. ( forgive me my grammar. English is not my native language.). That is probably how she sees the world and threats it how she is used to do it. And do not forget , she agrees to become a spectre. A council spectre. That says to me that Ashley is not really a racist .she keeps her distance.

[Mordokai]

The more I read these threads the more I think the real question people are debating over is "Is Ashley kind of douchey?". Actively racist or not, you'd have to be some kind of a...uh, person to just spit nasty remarks like those without thinking (the monster comment, youre not even our species comment, stfu Liara youre not in charge comment. Like girl, chill out) I was really liking Ash upon getting to know her in my first playthrough, but the more her attitude problem showed...well, the easier it became to pick the Virmire survivor lol... 

 

 

You and I are thinking much the same way. I like that.

 

I believe they are referring to the dialogue when FemShep chooses to dump Jacob for Garrus. Jacob says with indignation," That cuttlebone?". Cuttlebone probably referring to the bony carapaces of turians. Such a classy gentleman. 

 

I see. Never had a clash between Jacob and Garrus, since if I ever go for a romance in second game, it's Garrus and him only.

 

Still yeah, that doesn't serve to cast ol' Jacob in good light.

[Hazegurl]

hm, imo if Ashley replaced aliens with (Black, White, Asian, Arab, et al) she would be considered racist without a doubt. 

 

"I can't tell the (insert race here) from the animals." would get a few raised brows. So yeah she is specist/bigot. But it I suppose you can say it's understandable given her bad history with them.  I would understand it if John McCain hated Asians. So I understand Ashley's feelings on aliens aren't gonna be "let's all join hands and sing songs"

 

I always role play my Shep as hating Turians and expressing some pro human beliefs until he gets to know the aliens onboard. So my biggest issue with Ashely is that she doesn't seem to learn anything until Virmire. I see it as a befitting end to die working together with aliens for her. 

[zestalyn]

 

Irrelevant to my argument, though. You can't guess intent based on a singular piece of dialogue.

"Jealous? Of you? You're not even our species!"
"You want to get involved with some alien? Go ahead."
"Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters."
"I am no fan of aliens"

Some people like to say Ash says these things just because she's all hot-headed and jealous and stuff. Others, myself included, disagree, because come on, if you're someone who does not consider other alien species to be inferior to humanity for simply not being human, you don't blurt crap like that to begin with. Unless you're a totally insensitive moron. Ash is intelligent, so for her to say nonsense like that I think shows she carries some level of deeply buried prejudices against other species.

Given her father's military background, and her limited exposure to alienculture, is that kind of prejudice understandable? Sure. For the time being. Is it excusable? Errr, that's not a thing you "excuse". It's a thing you hope someone will grow out of and move past. And as BioticGod suggested, I'm sure Ash did just that by the time of ME3 

 

 

 

I see. Never had a clash between Jacob and Garrus, since if I ever go for a romance in second game, it's Garrus and him only.

 

Still yeah, that doesn't serve to cast ol' Jacob in good light.

 

Nah I've never experienced that scene myself *shudder* lol I saw it on the youtubes