642 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

3's romance content is not actually that bad. It's Miranda's plot role that bugs me there. Reverse that for 2. Shep/Miranda is remixed Revan/Bastila. Lots of Shepard being on a high horse and never being knocked off it.

I think I'd prefer Shep/Tali if I could actually get through it.

 

I prefer the high horse route. I'll be honest (that's becoming a catch phrase of mine), I can speak from experience that once you're on the horse, you never want to get off. 

 

That's one reason why Shepard and Miranda is so appealing to me. The kind of relationship that the Revan/Bastilla relationship (especially when you push her buttons and be a roguish charmer) is is what I personally view to be the ideal relationship with the ideal male and the ideal female. My Shepard is on the high horse, and he never will get knocked off of it.

 

I'll agree to an extent with Miranda's plot role in ME3. She's clearly off doing her own mission in the game, but the game doesn't always do the best job showing you that or defending it.

[dreamgazer]

I mean, I just pick a romance and roll with it. They're all heavy-handed and awkward in some way as it is, so I don't see the point in doubling down on that. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I mean, I just pick a romance and roll with it. They're all heavy-handed and awkward in some way as it is, so I don't see the point in doubling down on that. 

 

I don't see what you mean by doubling down, unless you mean you think people take it too seriously.

[dreamgazer]

I don't see what you mean by doubling down, unless you mean you think people take it too seriously.

 

Well, yeah, that, and going through the build-up for two of them only to arrive at a petulant ultimatum point. 

[DeinonSlayer]

What I think is funny is people who come to hate any LI who isn't the one they latched onto.

 

"If it has boobs and isn't [insert name picked from hat here], it dies."

[jtav]

I, ah, think my current game is going to work out that way. I don't hate the others though.

[DeinonSlayer]

I, ah, think my current game is going to work out that way. I don't hate the others though.

I think that might have happened with one of my FemShep playthroughs. Purely by accident, though.

[dreamgazer]

What I think is funny is people who come to hate any LI who isn't the one they latched onto.

 

"If it has boobs and isn't [insert name picked from hat here], it dies."

 

Waifus r srs bsns. 

 

And I really don't understand all this competition, since they all pale in comparison to Kelly Chambers anyway. You're bickering over second place, dinks. 

[jtav]

I think that might have happened with one of my FemShep playthroughs. Purely by accident, though.

Mine's a combination of RP and preferring the content where Ash, Jack, and Tali are dead. But mostly it's Matt being stiffly honorable and heavily biased toward Miranda.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

What I think is funny is people who come to hate any LI who isn't the one they latched onto.

 

"If it has boobs and isn't [insert name picked from hat here], it dies."

 

I don't actually hate any of the LI's that aren't Miranda because they're LI's. I hate them for various reasons, some of which might come to down to how I perceive their character in a relationship, but not necessarily in comparison to Miranda. Granted, it falls flat for Kelly anyway. And there are more characters I'd have liked to have been LI's anyway. 

[Rithmerdui]

In the first game Ashley gets along well with Tali and they're having friendly elevator conversations. There is this one time Ash do talk about the Quarian suit though. Sadly don't remember specifics.

[Iakus]

It's not headcanon. That's denial on your part.

 

You keep going back to the keepers with this statement, and expecting it to stick. I don't know why you're doing that. You really don't want Ashley to be a racist. A human soldier who has never stepped foot on the Citadel, quite frankly, should be expected to know better. If Ashley doesn't know anything, then it's on her, or her family, to have been willfully ignorant. In either case, willfull ignorance is typically a sign of bigotry, especially in regards to other ethnicities, nations, and races. She may not know the Keepers, but she most definitely should be completely aware of any other sapient species on the Citadel. And when the Keepers perform rather regimented and routine skills with Citadel technology, it should be rather indicative that they're not an animal species that's just wandering the place. So in short; it is a failing on her part to not recognize this. And as I said, I don't believe that to be the case. Which makes it a failure on her part to be willfully derogatory and dismissive to other species arbitrarily. And I consider it a failure on your part to not recognize that aspect of Ashley's psyche. 

 

I keep going back to it because she's referring to the Keepers in that statement.  Not the asari.  Not the krogan.  Not even the hanar.  The Keepers.  She can't tell if they're sentient or not.  Just like everyone else in the galaxy.  It's a very simple and accurate (if tactless) statement

 

I get it, you hate Ash.  you're a Miranda fan.  Good on you!  But really, you're hatred of her seems to make you read a lot more malice into her statements than is really there.

[themikefest]

What I think is funny is people who come to hate any LI who isn't the one they latched onto.

 

"If it has boobs and isn't [insert name picked from hat here], it dies."

Nope. I would still hate them even if they weren't a LI.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I keep going back to it because she's referring to the Keepers in that statement.  Not the asari.  Not the krogan.  Not even the hanar.  The Keepers.  She can't tell if they're sentient or not.  Just like everyone else in the galaxy.  It's a very simple and accurate (if tactless) statement

 

I get it, you hate Ash.  you're a Miranda fan.  Good on you!  But really, you're hatred of her seems to make you read a lot more malice into her statements than is really there.

 

I'll be frank:

 

Bull****. Complete bull****. That seems like you're grasping for the Keepers as a run-away explanation to it. And she's the only one commenting on it. Unless you have some kind of evidence to the contrary, I'm not buying that pal.

 

She's not referring to the Keepers. She's referring to everything that's not human. Simple as that. You're trying to explain it so that precious Ashley doesn't have the blemish of bigotry on her writing, when the writers quite intentionally and quite clearly wrote her to be, at best, a noble bigot with a badge in ME1 (among other things.)

 

There is malice in the statement she makes. It's intentional, both in-universe and out of universe. That's part of her character. It's not explained away that she was 'just talking about the keepers'. Your love of her seems to make you disregard a lot of legitimate criticism on that count as unfair.

[dreamgazer]

Poor keepers, man. 

 

[DeinonSlayer]

Any chance we could accept that people routinely overlook the flaws in their preferred LI's which are more readily pointed out by others? This could go on for days.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Any chance we could accept that people routinely overlook the flaws in their preferred LI's which are more readily pointed out by others? This could go on for days.

 

Sure. I accept that certain people would see flaws in Miranda that I personally wouldn't see or regard as a flaw.

 

That said, I don't see how Ashley's NBwaB (and I'm being generous with that) can be overlooked. Does she get better in subsequent games? Debatable. And I find worse things to her character than just that. Granted, one of the things I never really liked about the series was over the relative lack of influence over other characters' opinions and the ability to critique them for whatever view they held. You can do it to some extent, but not to the level I'd say that other games have done it.

[DeinonSlayer]

Sure. I accept that certain people would see flaws in Miranda that I personally wouldn't see or regard as a flaw.

 

That said, I don't see how Ashley's NBwaB (and I'm being generous with that) can be overlooked. Does she get better in subsequent games? Debatable. And I find worse things to her character than just that. Granted, one of the things I never really liked about the series was over the relative lack of influence over other characters' opinions and the ability to critique them for whatever view they held. You can do it to some extent, but not to the level I'd say that other games have done it.

I found Ashley's personality (particularly her behavior in certain post-mission debriefings) abrasive and unprofessional to say the least in ME1, but there were still things I appreciated about the character. I don't like what they turned her into in the final installment - I've installed mods for a lot of characters, but she's seen the most extensive overhaul. Doesn't undo the damage done by the writing itself.

 

And yeah, behavioral modification was something that dropped off over the course of the trilogy. "Hardening" Kaidan and "softening" Ashley in ME1, to say nothing of tugging Garrus this way or that in the first two games, really didn't go anywhere. Outside of the MEU, DA:O and FNV, I haven't played any other RPGs. DA:O was probably the best example of behavioral modification done right that I've encountered. Are there others out there that come to mind for you?

[Obadiah]

In addition to her ME1 conversations about not wanting to trust or be dependent on the other races to solve a human problem, pretty much every mission I took her on in ME3 brought out some snide comment about aliens - either not handling their own problems or using Shepard to solve theirs. I think she's a racist, reforming as she has more contact with aliens.

Help me out here, is there ever a moment in the game where she does something for, or says something positive about aliens on her own, besides helping Shepard save the galaxy? A few come to mind:
- ME1: took the position that the Council should be saved in one of my ME1 playthroughs
- ME3: thinks of Tali as a sister
- ME1: thinks the Prothean ruins that Liara was trapped in were impressive
- ME3: tries to save the Council, and with influence puts a gun on Udina, and might even shoot him

[KaiserShep]

I never took Ashley to the final mission on Ilos/the Citadel, but it was interesting to see how adamant Garrus was about sacrificing the Council. Dude has some serious issues with authority.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I found Ashley's personality (particularly her behavior in certain post-mission debriefings) abrasive and unprofessional to say the least in ME1, but there were still things I appreciated about the character. I don't like what they turned her into in the final installment - I've installed mods for a lot of characters, but she's seen the most extensive overhaul. Doesn't undo the damage done by the writing itself.

 

And yeah, behavioral modification was something that dropped off over the course of the trilogy. "Hardening" Kaidan and "softening" Ashley in ME1, to say nothing of tugging Garrus this way or that in the first two games, really didn't go anywhere. Outside of the MEU, DA:O and FNV, I haven't played any other RPGs. DA:O was probably the best example of behavioral modification done right that I've encountered. Are there others out there that come to mind for you?

 

TOR does an alright job of letting you critique people's opinions (if not change their minds), and KotOR II has an alignment system where your actions and dialogue can sway the alignment and ideology of your companions to an extent. That said, you have Kreia breaking down whatever philosophy you choose to hold for your Exile the entire time. Everyone's a fool, and she rightfully treats everyone as one. She can be seen as an early version of Flemith. KotOR does an alright job, allowing you to debate with people. That's as far as BW RPG's go that I've really messed around with (even though KotOR II was by Obsidian).

[MassivelyEffective0730]

In addition to her ME1 conversations about not wanting to trust or be dependent on the other races to solve a human problem, pretty much every mission I took her on in ME3 brought out some snide comment about aliens - either not handling their own problems or using Shepard to solve theirs. I think she's a racist, reforming as she has more contact with aliens.

Help me out here, is there ever a moment in the game where she does something for, or says something positive about aliens on her own, besides helping Shepard save the galaxy? A few come to mind:
- ME1: took the position that the Council should be saved in one of my ME1 playthroughs
- ME3: thinks of Tali as a sister
- ME1: thinks the Prothean ruins that Liara was trapped in were impressive
- ME3: tries to save the Council, and with influence puts a gun on Udina, and might even shoot him

 

And for every positive thing she says for aliens, she does indeed have a snide remark or so that that is dismissive and derisive towards aliens. The standout in particular was a statement she made about the Asari on the Asari Monastery mission.

[DeinonSlayer]

I never took Ashley to the final mission on Ilos/the Citadel, but it was interesting to see how adamant Garrus was about sacrificing the Council. Dude has some serious issues with authority.

IIRC that depends entirely on who your other squadmate is. One will always advocate saving the council, the other will advocate leaving them to die, choosing their position based on which two companions you bring. For instance, Wrex (the renegade) always advocates abandoning the council, and Liara (the ever so sweet and innocent writer's pet) always advocates saving them. Everyone else is in the middle. So, for example, Tali paired with Wrex advocates saving them, Tali paired with Liara advocates abandoning them. Kaidan and Ashley move on the paragon/renegade spectrum based on how you influence them; I imagine Garrus does the same.
 

And for every positive thing she says for aliens, she does indeed have a snide remark or so that that is dismissive and derisive towards aliens. The standout in particular was a statement she made about the Asari on the Asari Monastery mission.

Now I'm gonna have to take her there at some point. Just sat down to finally fix my ME3 files after that varren mod broke it.

[dreamgazer]

Just sat down to finally fix my ME3 files after that varren mod broke it.

 

The ... what? I hear that's how scale-itch gets around.

[DeinonSlayer]

The ... what? I hear that's how scale-itch gets around.

A mod I got off the Nexus which was meant to replace that useless robot-dog with Urz. When I tried going to the engineering deck, the game would freeze.

*sigh* Still broken...