642 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Garrus was way more racist in the first game. He tells Kaidan that turians would have handled L2's way better than humans, tells Tali her race is shameful compared to turians, then Garrus tells Wrex how surprised he is that Wrex isn't a walking racial stereotype of a Krogan.

 

I don't understand why people don't pick up on that passive racism Garrus frequently showed. They damn Ashley forever for one instance that can happen really early in the game and Jacob for a line of dialogue you have to really work for.

Probably because it all comes in elevator conversations and he never brings it up anywhere else? I mean, I brought Garrus along frequently in my current ME1 game and never heard any of it; after the Citadel investigation, you hardly ever need to use elevators anymore because of Citadel fast travel.

 

Also, that last one is definitely repeated by Kaidan, and probably other characters; it's a matter of who happens to be in the elevator with Wrex, and nothing else. In any case, not only am I not "damning" Ashley, it's not over merely one instance; I've mentioned a couple.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Garrus was way more racist in the first game. He tells Kaidan that turians would have handled L2's way better than humans, tells Tali her race is shameful compared to turians, then Garrus tells Wrex how surprised he is that Wrex isn't a walking racial stereotype of a Krogan.

 

I don't understand why people don't pick up on that passive racism Garrus frequently showed. They damn Ashley forever for one instance that can happen really early in the game and Jacob for a line of dialogue you have to really work for.

Only the Tali one is remotely rascist. And even then, the Quarian one makes sense for any Turian culturally, seeing as the Quarians, as a nation, do kinda live like leeches off the galactic society, the exact opposite culture of the Turians. 

[KaiserShep]

I was a little surprised by the L2 implant comment though. Like "F*ck your headaches. We would've taken it like troopers!"

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

I was a little surprised by the L2 implant comment though. Like "F*ck your headaches. We would've taken it like troopers!"

If I remember correctly, the L2 implants are stronger than the L3. So any Turian cabal would be willing to take the side effects to be a more effective soldier. 

[KaiserShep]

This all depends on what it is that makes a soldier more effective. The L2 implants allow for a higher spike in biotic abilities, but it also runs the risk of mental instability, insanity and crippling pain, and attempting to upgrade to L3 to stop the issue runs the risk of brain damage.

[zestalyn]

 

Garrus was way more racist in the first game. He tells Kaidan that turians would have handled L2's way better than humans, tells Tali her race is shameful compared to turians, then Garrus tells Wrex how surprised he is that Wrex isn't a walking racial stereotype of a Krogan.

 

I don't understand why people don't pick up on that passive racism Garrus frequently showed. They damn Ashley forever for one instance that can happen really early in the game and Jacob for a line of dialogue you have to really work for.

Ah we're bringing in Garrus now? Count me in   

Well, you said it yourself, people don't pick up on it as much, because it's "passive" racism at most. Even then, it's going to take convincing. This is the first time I saw someone consider those comments indicating prejudice. 

 L2 implants are stronger than L3's. Garrus is probably right, turians would sacrifice safety for stronger biotics. Does he think turians could handle it better than humans, just cause they're turian or something? He doesn't say that. He thinks humans should take the risk for better biotics.

Garrus told Tali he hopes her people are sorry for their fiasco w/ the Geth. And he said its natural for people to dislike rootless wanderers, after noticing how much attention Tali was receiving on the Citadel. Garrus shows his naivety by saying Quarians should just settle on another homeworld and be done with their mistakes. He then apologizes for his ignorance when discovering that's not possible b/c of their immune systems. 

Garrus acknowledges he was raised to see krogan as bloodthirsty mindless brutes, and that Wrex showed him otherwise. This is like a white kid telling his first black friend that what he's been taught about black people all his life in his little cushiony white neighborhood, is wrong. 

I personally don't think any of this is particularly more insidious than Ash's insensitive remarks against Liara and alien species in general (If you read this thread, it's not just a single dialogue we've been discussing).

Like Kaidan, Garrus exhibits inherent detachment and naivety about other races, and knows it because he shows tact and respect when talking about it. That in itself implies more open-mindedness than straight up prejudice. That's why we don't have threads asking "Are Kaidan/Garrus really racist??"
 

 

[Catastrophy]

She's a bit too American for Middle-European taste. And she comes with a kind of  rural background and some backwards mindset - in a game where you take to the stars. I got rid of her in the first game. Boosting her looks didn't help much - the first impression likely sticks.

[Farangbaa]

Probably because it all comes in elevator conversations and he never brings it up anywhere else? I mean, I brought Garrus along frequently in my current ME1 game and never heard any of it; after the Citadel investigation, you hardly ever need to use elevators anymore because of Citadel fast travel.

 

Also, that last one is definitely repeated by Kaidan, and probably other characters; it's a matter of who happens to be in the elevator with Wrex, and nothing else. In any case, not only am I not "damning" Ashley, it's not over merely one instance; I've mentioned a couple.

 

You have Normandy cheats? Cause I end up taking the elevator from/to the Normandy a lot.

[KaiserShep]

How often you have to use the elevators depends on whether or not you want to complete all quests and on your Shepard's background (Citadel: Signal Tracking and Citadel: Old, Unhappy, Far-Off Things, the latter of which requires the spacer background) you have to use the elevator connecting the particular area shared by these two quests up to 3 times on top of the times required to ride the elevator connecting C-Sec Academy to the dock, since the Wards Access corridor has no rapid transit console there.

[Farangbaa]

I'll admit that my first visit to the Citadel is always a tourist one No rapid transit, only travel by foot.

 

I also tend to shop on the Citadel quite a lot to empty inventory, which means extra Citadel Dock elevator use

[Oni Changas]

 

Lol, wow this thread is running in circles. If you guys are so keen on keeping this thread going, atleast read what other people are saying before you try to contribute. 

Her opinion on Normandy protocol is not the main issue. 
 
What does this have to do with the topic.

You tell me, you brought it up and I responded. It's like bringing up the quality of a car during a pc vs console debate and questioning people for saying "Ford's had a good run."
You're not having a bout with dementia are you buddy?

[Iakus]

I personally don't think L'Etoile really hit the notes for political realism very well. I've studied it a bit, and Ashley's pessimism definitely strikes me as motivated by more than just cynicism. There's an underlying feeling that she seems to hold towards aliens that I don't really see in most modern realist proponents. And the people who that characteristic is present in? It's the same kind of people I'd view as more akin to the hijacked tea party perspective and rural blue collar conservative. While you can say that it's a realist perspective, you can't really say its something born from personal experience or observance. Ashley technically has no physical justification for holding her opinions prior to her first Citadel experience. It's also important to note how he immediately flags all consideration of her as racist as xenophobic. That's not really the case for defining all bigotry. 

 

Please explain the bolded.  Especially in light of her ripping the Terra Firma Party a new one at their rally.

[zestalyn]

  You tell me, you brought it up and I responded. It's like bringing up the quality of a car during a pc vs console debate and questioning people for saying "Ford's had a good run."
You're not having a bout with dementia are you buddy?

Cute, but Kaidan's attraction to Liara doesn't have anything to do with his ability for tact. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Please explain the bolded.  Especially in light of her ripping the Terra Firma Party a new one at their rally.

 

I mean by how the Tea Party was, at one time, a grass roots organization that was essentially a watchdog group created to give voice to people with concerns over government spending and taxation allocations, and worried about how such regulation might be legal according to the Constitution. And then it slowly became more libertarian in design, which was alright, though not something I'd endorse (since I'm a believer in a very strong unitary system of government), but gradually became more... Populist in nature when politicians such as Rand Paul and Marco Rubio came to prominence through influence in the party. As it gathered steam, it attracted all nature of more conservative minded folk on the economic, fiscal, and foreign policy side of things to start making it more into a Conservative power-group meant for the blue collar folk while being given charge from Corporations who used it as a lobbying platform for their own interests in groups (it's why you saw Blue-collar rural hicks (and if you can't tell, I'm personally disgusted by anything 'blue-collar') demanding that tax breaks be given to billion-dollar corporations with dubious goals towards science and social progress), and then it started attracting the social conservatives and religious right-wing fundamentalists. That's what I mean by hijacked.

 

It's pretty much now a group of literal Constitutionists who believe that every child in America needs to be taught how to fire a machine gun in kindergarten while being able to recite the Bible and view every non-American industry, idea, or person with distrust and suspicion, and be anti-intellectual while being pro-corporate.

 

That's how I characterize Ashley's views origin. It's how I set her apart from other groups, including even terra firma. I've done a lot of research into groups like the Tea Party, and I have to say that her views mesh more with a not-quite-modern version, but definitely very... populist and neo-conservative viewpoint. It's not as extreme by any means as the paragraph above this one, but I think her character was also supposed to have been a deconstruction for that ideology, but writing stumps, hiccups, and loss of her primary writer stopped that from coming into fruition.

 

This was in a message I had to Deinon over the same issue. It'll be my explanation to you. As well, Ashley didn't 'rip Terra Firma a new one'. It was an easily discredited argument that the game gives you no chance to really rebuke her for (since I believe it was partially given as an author tract for L'Etoile).

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Dubious goals toward science and social progress?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Dubious goals toward science and social progress?

 

I suppose it's subjective, but science is kind of viewed with suspicion among that crowd, especially if any kind of scientific observations come into conflict with personal beliefs. Ditto with social progress, since a lot of the people that have taken root with the Tea Party in recent years are the ones who feel an obligation to make a society based on socially conservative ideology.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I ain't pouring a drink until the rain stops.

[RZIBARA]

No she isn't.

 

She isn't racist, racism is from the likes of Javik, Wrex and Tali. That is racism. Using objective thinking about another species being aboard the most advanced human vessel, and her thoughts about the council and how useless they are is not racism. Tali ends up taking tech from the Normandy, as the Quarian Fleet somehow has access to stealth drives in ME3, and the council did exactly what she predicted they would in ME3.

 

The main reason the majority of the fanbase hates her is because she doesn't brown nose Shepard and other Aliens, and then they use the racism thing as way to justify their dumb opinion. They ignore the racism from characters like Tali and Wrex, the religious nature of Samara and Thane, and call Ash a drunk, but think Tali is awesome when she gets wasted. For some reason people hate a human character when they have those traits. I don't know if it is just that the majority of ME fans have some sort of hatred for their own species and love for a make belief fictional alien race.

 

F*cking hypocrites.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

I suppose it's subjective, but science is kind of viewed with suspicion among that crowd, especially if any kind of scientific observations come into conflict with personal beliefs. Ditto with social progress, since a lot of the people that have taken root with the Tea Party in recent years are the ones who feel an obligation to make a society based on socially conservative ideology.

I know some of the Tea Partiers have issues with some of that, (my own mother, moderately,) but you mentioned corporations with those own goals.

I can't really thinking of any. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

No she isn't.

 

The main reason the majority of the fanbase hates her is because she doesn't brown nose Shepard and other Aliens, and then they use the racism thing as way to justify their dumb opinion. They ignore the racism from characters like Tali and Wrex, the religious nature of Samara and Thane, and call Ash a drunk, but think Tali is awesome when she gets wasted. For some reason people hate a human character when they have those traits. I don't know if it is just that the majority of ME fans have some sort of hatred for their own species and love for a make belief fictional alien race.

 

F*cking hypocrites.

 

I don't think I've ever done anything in that regard. I think this is a straw argument against many people. I certainly don't hold any of the opinions you're ascribing.

[RZIBARA]

I don't think I've ever done anything in that regard. I think this is a straw argument against many people.

 

Note I said majority, not EVERYONE who hates her.

 

I have seen a lot of Ashley bashing, and I have seen a lot of people's conversations on BSN and other forums. This is a common trend I have noticed, and I am pointing it out

[DeinonSlayer]

I suppose it's subjective, but science is kind of viewed with suspicion among that crowd, especially if any kind of scientific observations come into conflict with personal beliefs. Ditto with social progress, since a lot of the people that have taken root with the Tea Party in recent years are the ones who feel an obligation to make a society based on socially conservative ideology.

That first part I can confirm through personal experience. It still surprises me how otherwise-intelligent and often very successful people can be steadfast poof-there-it-is young earth creationists.

For the most part, I think people should be free to live their own lives - I oppose bans on gay marriage, for instance, but I also oppose "speech codes" banning the expression of the opposing viewpoint on campus and people fishing around for bakers with no intention of placing an order (or was it the photographer? It was one of those two) until they find one who declines to service a hypothetical same-sex wedding, then rousing a mob on Facebook to harass and hound them both in and out of the courtroom until their livelihood has been destroyed. All in the name of tolerance and respect, of course.

EDIT: I'll have to get back to your PM later, Massively. Good discussion.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I'm looking for General Patton in the crowd at the U.S. Germany match. So many words to say...

[Dale]

In ME1, when Ash snipped at Liara saying

 

"Now is THAT what we're supposed to do?  Since WHEN did the commander resign and put you in charge?"

 

That was a turnoff to me (so I romanced Liara on that playthough).   On the 2nd playthrough, I dialoged more with Ash and finally UNDERSTOOD her take with aliens -- especially her military family background and grandfather.   I especially remember her saying:

 

"if a bear chases you in the woods, though you love your dog, you'd sic your dog on him to give you room to run -- it's not because you hate your dog -- it's that your dog is not HUMAN".   

 

That pretty much tells me about Ash's take on being a "racist".   So I romanced Ash on that playthrough.

 

Honestly & carefully consider your own prejudices.   As one philosopher put it, "lie all you want to the world, but at least be TRUE to yourself".   So -- ask yourself -- if the Krogan attacked us, you'd stand with ALL humans (all colors).   On earth, if one continent attacked your continent, you'd stand with ALL on your continent.   If one state attacked your state, you'd stand with ALL in your state.  How far DOWN do I have to drill?   If your neighbor (across your driveway) is Krogan or Volus, then what goes thru your mind?

 

Are you prejudiced -- or factually opinionated?

 

JAVIK:  "you stupid primitives!"

[Hazegurl]

There are several things that Ash says that are the truth. She was totally right about the aliens looking out for themselves, my Shep held those same beliefs which is why he got rid of the Council hoping to give the humans more power. Too bad an all Human Council was too much for Bioware to do.

 

My problem with Ash was that she never seemed to let up until Virmire. And although I don't like Liara, there was a time and a place for lashing out like that. She just came across as very unprofessional. Her shooting Wrex when I was trying to calm him down during my first playthrough sorta helped seal her date with a bomb. There's only room for one renegade leader onboard my ship and it ain't Ashley Williams.