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Who do you trust more Morrigan or Flemeth?


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#76
ThomasBlaine

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Varric's expedition would have failed without Hawke, so even if Anders miraculously escaped the Templar trap, then he would have been hunted down like a dog by the Templars. Bottom line: Anders would not have remained free in Kirkwall as long as he did, without Hawke.

 

Varric would have died in the Deep Roads and Hawke wouldn't be able to protect Anders, which means Anders would be captured.

 

Or if he "miraculously" decided not to go. Or if he "miraculously" found someone else to help. Or if Varric "miraculously" found someone else for him. There's no shortage of skilled mercenaries in Kirkwall, and Hawke never played a bigger role than that in any of his friends' schemes. Why do you think Varric's expedition must have failed without Hawke in particular? I don't remember him personally doing anything that directly resulted in its success. It sounds more like you're arguing that Anders wouldn't have remained as long as he did without Varric, which might or might not be true. A more desperate situation could just as easily have pushed him to attack the chantry sooner, though.

 

If Varric hadn't personally been there to put people in contact with each other and support them and coordinate everything then the events of Dragon Age II would have gone very differently, even if it would probably have had the same results on a grander scale, that much is definitely true. I couldn't say the same about Hawke.



#77
EmperorSahlertz

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Or if he "miraculously" decided not to go. Or if he "miraculously" found someone else to help. Or if Varric "miraculously" did it for him. There's no shortage of skilled mercenaries in Kirkwall, and Hawke never played a bigger role than that in any of his friends' schemes. Why do you think Varric's expedition would have failed without Hawke in particular? I don't remember him personally doing anything that directly resulted in its success. It sounds more like you're arguing that Anders wouldn't have remained as long as he did without Varric, which might or might not be true. A more desperate situation could just as easily have pushed him to attack the chantry sooner, though.

Because first of all, without Hawke they wouldn't have had any investors, so the expedition wouldn't even have started in the first place. But if we go to the land of make-believe, then lets say the expedition did set out with just some random mooks of mecenaries. Then they would have been slaughtered to a man, by the Darkspawn, dragons, Profane, or demons, take your pick. This would result in Varric not playing any future role in Kirkwall. Which means that even IF Varric somehow succeeded in helping out Anders in his little quest, then he wouldn't be there to help Anders out with keeping the Templars off of him. WHich would again result in Anders capture.

Then there is also the whole Qunari business which again without Hawke, would have resulted in Kirkwall being burned to the ground by the Qunari, again probably resulting in Anders death or capture, but much more importantly making Anders' planned terror bombing of the Chantry moot, since it wouldn't be in existance anyway.

 

Bottom line: No Hawke --> No bombing --> No escalation.



#78
agentdalecooper

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Neither of them is to be trusted.



#79
ThomasBlaine

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Because first of all, without Hawke they wouldn't have had any investors, so the expedition wouldn't even have started in the first place. But if we go to the land of make-believe, then lets say the expedition did set out with just some random mooks of mecenaries. Then they would have been slaughtered to a man, by the Darkspawn, dragons, Profane, or demons, take your pick. This would result in Varric not playing any future role in Kirkwall. Which means that even IF Varric somehow succeeded in helping out Anders in his little quest, then he wouldn't be there to help Anders out with keeping the Templars off of him. WHich would again result in Anders capture.

Then there is also the whole Qunari business which again without Hawke, would have resulted in Kirkwall being burned to the ground by the Qunari, again probably resulting in Anders death or capture, but much more importantly making Anders' planned terror bombing of the Chantry moot, since it wouldn't be in existance anyway.

 

Bottom line: No Hawke --> No bombing --> No escalation.

 

You're basing that argument on the idea that Hawke - and Hawke alone, never mind the companions who did three quarters of the work and would still be available for Varric and anyone else to collect had Hawke not been there - was the only person in Kirkwall capable of scraping together fifty sovereigns. You're already in the land of make-belief.

And again, plenty of skilled mercenaries(you later meet bandits in the street who are at least as powerful as Hawke is at the start of the expedition) and plenty of desperate apostates who could do the same job. I played the exact same game as you, and not once during the expedition did my Hawke personally do anything that nobody else could or would have done to make it succeed, or even make the defining difference at any critical point.

No evidence whatsoever that the expedition would have failed if Varric had brought anyone but Hawke in particular as the fourth member of the party. And Varric DID help Anders out in his little quest, he put him in contact with a few mercenaries for backup, which just so happened to include Hawke, and again, I never saw Hawke personally do anything that another mercenary or apostate, or any other party member, for that matter, couldn't have done in his place.

 

And yes, let's look at the Qunari invasion. What difference did Hawke personally make there? He killed the Arishok in single combat. After which Meredith promptly appeared with Orsino and four templars after having secured the rest of the city. The duel + negotiations between Hawke and the Arishok in that scene take a total of 4-5 minutes on average, and it doesn't look like the Arishok is actually doing anything when we enter, aside from monologuing to the nobles.

So, if Hawke and co. hadn't been there, or if Hawke had lost, they would have arrived and either found things in pretty much the exact state we did, or found some of the Qunari dead and the Arishok still alive but caught inside the palace where they could easily box him in and wait for reinforcements.

Either way, the only difference Hawke's presence makes is how many templars die in the ensuing battle before the Qunari are suppressed, and whether or not there is a person called Hawke who deserves to be called Champion at the end of it, which in and of itself changes the apparent narrative of the events dramatically but doesn't mean squat for the events themselves.

 

"I was there sometimes and people say I did a really good job." doesn't equal "So obviously the city would have burnt down if I hadn't been there. And everybody I knew would have died. Which is obviously why it's completely thanks to me that my acquaintance who would later have a much more dramatic effect on events was able to do that. Never mind the guy himself, or the people whom my existence must have allowed to directly help him. It all comes back to me doing a good job."

I can see why the dumb masses could credit Hawke with a lot of the events of the game in-universe, given his status as Champion and possible magehood, but that's not how the actual events played out when you look at them objectively. He's certainly no more responsible for the results than Varric is, which might actually be why Varric himself talks Hawke up to anyone who'll listen. A figurehead, of sorts.



#80
Urazz

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I think Bartrand's expedition would've still happened regardless.  It would've just happened later without Hawke and Varric probably would've died without Hawke there to help him get out of there.  So essentially I think Meredith would've still gotten the Red Lyrium Idol regardless.

 

The Qunari invasion would've been stopped for sure without Hawke but Hawke just made it less bloody on the losses for Kirkwall.

 

The destruction of the Chantry and Meredith declaring the Right of Annulment would've still happened I think.  I think it resulted in fewer deaths since Hawke was the one to deal with Meredith and Orsino.  A lot more Templars and civilians would've died if Hawke wasn't there.

 

Essentially I think everything that happened in DA2 would've happened regardless.  Hawke really just caused things to happen faster in some cases in my opinion and essentially lessened the effects of the events of DA2 by saving a lot of lives.



#81
TheKomandorShepard

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How nice to see peoples aruge whether hawke was useless idiot or s/he was just guy/girl that screwd everything he/she could. :devil:



#82
Urazz

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Lol,  I don't think Hawke was a useless idiot.  He just wasn't the one who caused the mess of things in DA2.  Hawke was the guy who made things not as bad in my opinion.

 

You know, since each Dragon Age game involves Flemeth saving the PC at one point before they truly embark on their destiny, do you think Flemeth will do the same as well for the Inquisitor?


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#83
Jaqen21

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Flemeth is a self serving manipulator. I don't see how anyone could find her character to be remotely trustworthy


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#84
congokong

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This is a really good question. Let's look at the two from what we know.

 

1. Who's the bigger troublemaker?

 

Flemeth has been around a lot longer and yet hasn't caused that much trouble. Morrigan, while not directly causing trouble, advises some pretty abhorrent things. She claims this attitude came from Flemeth yet Flemeth doesn't act that much like Morrigan.

 

2. Who's the bigger liar?

 

Flemeth hasn't been known to lie. When she doesn't want you to know something she just won't tell you. Ex: She refuses to speak to Morrigan about her other daughters. Morrigan however does lie about her reason for accompanying the Warden until the end where she reveals her dark ritual plan. Still, she does confess to the old god baby scheme and just refuses to reveal her intentions

 

3. Who's more evil?

 

Again, Morrigan advises some pretty abhorrent things but doesn't do them nor has any known history of evil. Flemeth's evil that we know of largely revolves around her body snatching spell. It is a means of survival if not an evil one if that means anything.

 

4. Who's the greater threat?

 

Flemeth is certainly more powerful. And yet both seem to be scheming something.

 

 

In conclusion, logically I don't trust either of them more. From a biased perspective though I trust Morrigan more because my Warden was BFFs with her and actually got to know her somewhat while Flemeth remains an enigma.



#85
Ananka

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I would rather side with Flemeth than Morrigan (for various reasons- she's more powerful than Morrigan, she's more experienced and she's already outplayed Morrigan once with the medallion), but I wouldn't trust either of them.



#86
Ascendra

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Well Aimo's comic sheds some light on Morrigan's genuine feelings if you were good friends with her. I wish the developers did not cut this scene as it seems very important in the context of her character development.
All my wardens were idealists one way or another so they all trusted Morrigan implicitly. The Cousland - because she wanted a sister, Tabris - because she is a woman and not really human, Surana - because they are both mages and Morrigan seemed a free spirit that Surana wanted to be, and Mahariel - because Morrigan lived in the woods and was as stranger to civilization as much as the dalish were. On the other hand Flemeth did save their lives and really didnt do anything bad unless directly provoked by the warden. I hated making that decision tbh as all my wardens liked both of them or at least were grateful to Flemeth for saving their lives.
On the other hand since my Inquisitor will not have concept of their previous actions she will distrust them both equally, Flemeth more if the inquisitor sees her dragon side.

#87
Eveangaline

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My inquisitor will trust Flemeth even MORE if they see her dragon side. Dragons are awesome.



#88
blussi

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I can't never trust Flemeth. She always gives me really sinister vibe everytime. Morrigan.. I don't know maybe I'm just biased because I really love her character but I've never really considered her as manipulative type of person. She tries to be, but her emothions always get better of her (if you romanced or befriended her that is). While I have absolutely no idea what her plan is all about, I don't think it will be something as grand as destroying the world etc. She's a surviver and if she has planned anything at all it will be something that can protect herself and possibly her child from Flemeth, nothing more.

 

God, I can't wait to see her in game... but if Bioware somehow ends her character with even more questions rather than answers I'm really, really going to be angry. 



#89
SnakeCode

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Trust? Neither, as far as I could throw them. They're both clearly up to something...

 

 

I do like them both, however.


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#90
wcholcombe

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Well Aimo's comic sheds some light on Morrigan's genuine feelings if you were good friends with her. I wish the developers did not cut this scene as it seems very important in the context of her character development.
All my wardens were idealists one way or another so they all trusted Morrigan implicitly. The Cousland - because she wanted a sister, Tabris - because she is a woman and not really human, Surana - because they are both mages and Morrigan seemed a free spirit that Surana wanted to be, and Mahariel - because Morrigan lived in the woods and was as stranger to civilization as much as the dalish were. On the other hand Flemeth did save their lives and really didnt do anything bad unless directly provoked by the warden. I hated making that decision tbh as all my wardens liked both of them or at least were grateful to Flemeth for saving their lives.
On the other hand since my Inquisitor will not have concept of their previous actions she will distrust them both equally, Flemeth more if the inquisitor sees her dragon side.


m Morrigan is human. All of Flemeths daughters are Chasind girls who show magical talent and are left tied to a bench for Flemeth to find.

#91
Eveangaline

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Wait, where is that specified? The bench thing.



#92
wcholcombe

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Its in the tabletop RPG sourcebook that came out when DAO came out. There is a website you can find that has all that info online.

#93
Altima Darkspells

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I would 'trust' Flemeth more than Morrigan inasmuch that with Flemeth, you know exactly where you stand with her. Morrigan is just...shifty.

#94
Mecha Elf

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Flemeth. She knows more than Morrigan and is more wiser in my opnion. Morrigan has always given off that selfish and bratty vibe.
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#95
LobselVith8

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m Morrigan is human. All of Flemeths daughters are Chasind girls who show magical talent and are left tied to a bench for Flemeth to find.

 

I don't believe it specified that Morrigan was one the girls left by the Chasind; it read that there were girls who were left for Flemeth by the Chasind tribe if they showed magical ability, and then they were gone the next day. I suppose it's in the realm of possibility.



#96
Eveangaline

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Tabletop rpg? Huh..



#97
meganbytez

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i feel at least one of them is really trying to do some type of good (or just not totally bad). it would be kinda boring to me if they were both evil or something. some of the tales about flemeth and the witch of the wilds seem to be distorted due to people's fears and ignorance. i feel like flemeth seems to know what is always going to happen, as if she can predict the future somehow or just really understands people and demons and the things they do. Morrigan really values survival and always seems to make her choices based on survival. they also are both pretty annoyed by how ignorant people are about magic and mages as would any mage. maybe i just think the best of people, but i do trust morrigan. i dnt see her wanting to like destroy things and kill people or control them. i feel like she wouldn't care to spend energy on that. i would think whatever she is doing, (if for "selfish" reasons) it would only be for her survival. Flemeth i don't really trust. Flemeth…i really have no clue. She did save the warden and Hawke. But why she did is probally much more then just she wanted to save their lives. Now throw in the hole god baby thing and I'm just lost. But i do want to think the best, at least of Morrigan. It would be interesting if Flemeth was also good in some way, but my feeling is that she is not good so i don't trust Flemeth. 



#98
Grieving Natashina

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Tabletop rpg? Huh..

Here's the link for ya: http://greenronin.com/dragon_age/



#99
Eveangaline

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Here's the link for ya: http://greenronin.com/dragon_age/


Thanks

#100
Miss Dragon Age

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I trust Morrigan more, but probably not in the way that you think. Flemeth is more open and honest with the warden, but just because someone is honest doesn't mean they can be trusted. Flemeth is like a genie: powerful, useful, helpful, but help from a genie always comes back to bite you in the butt (Not to mention the fact Flemeth is angry with the world which is a very dangerous thing). Morrigan on the other hand is more like a troubled teenage girl: she thinks she knows it all best, she buries her feelings and emotions but they are still there and they are VERY strong. I know it may seem like she is just a user, and perhaps she originally was, but if your warden romanced her or even just befriended her like mine, you know that she really isn't that bad.


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