57 réponses à ce sujet

[Mindlog]

What, is supposed to be a joke?

You think this is a game?

[Dr. Tim Whatley]

You think this is a game?

 

[Ghostknife72]

 

Biggs would be disappointed....he always demanded 10 hour video clips.

 

THIS was his favorite.  I always heard it in the background when he played.

 

[capn233]

I really don't see how Suppressor's the clear winner here, accounting for lag and all that. The way I see it, it's only superior when you manage to rape an early wave mook spawn in five consecutive headshots, you might actually shave off half a second from the 2.4 seconds it takes from Paladin to do that. Does that have any significance considering the rest of the game? Absolutely not.

 

It is better at close range against a group of mooks than the Paladin largely because of the higher rate of fire and the higher capacity with similar shots to kill.

 

At longer range you really need someone like the Turian Soldier w/ Marksman to be able to take advantage of the ROF advantage since it the base accuracy isn't good enough to consistently land headshots.

 

In any event, the Suppressor is overall a bit better than Paladin vs mooks, but the Paladin is much better vs armor.  I guess you can use rarity to partially explain that.

[Deerber]

Okay. I downloaded the video and checked those parts you mentioned.

In 4:07 Feneckus kills one Engineer and two Guardians in 73 frames, that's 2.92 seconds. It'd take Paladin four shots to do that, that's 1.8 seconds.

In 4:47 he kills two Guardians and one Assault Trooper in 36 frames, that's 1.44 seconds. Paladin can get the required three shots off in 1.2 seconds.

I really don't see how Suppressor's the clear winner here, accounting for lag and all that. The way I see it, it's only superior when you manage to rape an early wave mook spawn in five consecutive headshots, you might actually shave off half a second from the 2.4 seconds it takes from Paladin to do that. Does that have any significance considering the rest of the game? Absolutely not.

Uh, I missed this. Well, aren't you accounting for re-targeting delay on the suppressor but not on the paladin, maybe? That makes the reasoning a bit hollow, in my opinion

You're also not taking lag into account. As I said, it might take him 1.44 secs to kill two guardians and a trooper, but I can guarantee you that on host, I can do that in about one second. Even less if I'm willing to lose some bullets.

Furthermore, using overload before shooting benefits the paladin more than the suppressor, but that is not always the case even on a kit with that power.

Let me put it this way: you turn a corner and you bump into say, a centurion. You don't have overload or it's on cooldown. Whether you use a paladin or a suppressor you'll need to home your sight on the head, and I feel it's safe to assume it takes the same time. After that, it takes the paladin 0.6 secs to kill the guy. The time it takes with the suppressor is pretty much the time it takes you to click the mouse twice... I'm going ahead and assume an average of 0.1-0.15 secs... Which means it takes you at least 0.35 secs less with the suppressor. And that's a pretty close model, so the mathematical representation has to be pretty close to reality, me thinks.

Another occasion in which the suppressor would perform a lot better than a paladin would be if you get on a group of mooks bunched together, but that's quite harder to accurately describe from a math point of view, so you'll have to just take my word that a suppressor murders the entire spawn twice as fast as a paladin does, if you will

As I said... You're going to kill mooks faster with a suppressor. Whether faster enough to justify its weaknesses... I'll leave it up to you

[LemurFromTheId]

Uh, I missed this. Well, aren't you accounting for re-targeting delay on the suppressor but not on the paladin, maybe? That makes the reasoning a bit hollow, in my opinion

You're also not taking lag into account. As I said, it might take him 1.44 secs to kill two guardians and a trooper, but I can guarantee you that on host, I can do that in about one second. Even less if I'm willing to lose some bullets.

Furthermore, using overload before shooting benefits the paladin more than the suppressor, but that is not always the case even on a kit with that power.

Let me put it this way: you turn a corner and you bump into say, a centurion. You don't have overload or it's on cooldown. Whether you use a paladin or a suppressor you'll need to home your sight on the head, and I feel it's safe to assume it takes the same time. After that, it takes the paladin 0.6 secs to kill the guy. The time it takes with the suppressor is pretty much the time it takes you to click the mouse twice... I'm going ahead and assume an average of 0.1-0.15 secs... Which means it takes you at least 0.35 secs less with the suppressor. And that's a pretty close model, so the mathematical representation has to be pretty close to reality, me thinks.

Another occasion in which the suppressor would perform a lot better than a paladin would be if you get on a group of mooks bunched together, but that's quite harder to accurately describe from a math point of view, so you'll have to just take my word that a suppressor murders the entire spawn twice as fast as a paladin does, if you will

As I said... You're going to kill mooks faster with a suppressor. Whether faster enough to justify its weaknesses... I'll leave it up to you

I am accounting for re-targeting on the Paladin. It has 0.6 sec shot interval. If you can't acquire a new target in that time, you can hardly be better with the Suppressor, can you?

I'm also taking lag into account. That's why I said "I really don't see how Suppressor's the clear winner here" instead of "Paladin's the clear winner here."

Yes, Suppressor can kill a shielded target faster than Paladin. I've never denied that. On the other hand, Paladin can one-shot unshielded mooks and two-shot others on just about any kit, without any special weapon damage bonuses, yet one-shotting cannibals or collector troopers and two-shotting shielded mooks with the Suppressor requires a very specific setup (a regular adept can't do that). And it's much easier to make a single shot count than to pull of several quick headshots on a moving enemy.

And as for groups of mooks... Well, Paladin can still kill a five-mook spawn with 5-7 shots, depending on the types of mooks and whether Overload/whatever is needed/available etc. That's 2.4-3.6 seconds. Can Suppressor do it faster? Theoretically yes. In practice? Maybe. If you have a setup that can one-shot mooks, if you can accurately re-target in less than 0.6 seconds, then yes, you might shave off, what? Half a second? A full second? I'll believe it when I see it.

Also, consistency is important, too. Managing to kill a trio of mooks exceptionally fast once in every game is cool and all, but it hardly matters in the big picture. What actually makes a difference is being able to consistently move faster from one enemy to the next. And that's something I couldn't really see in Feneckus' video, I think he could've easily done that with the Paladin.

[LemurFromTheId]

It is better at close range against a group of mooks than the Paladin largely because of the higher rate of fire and the higher capacity with similar shots to kill.

 

At longer range you really need someone like the Turian Soldier w/ Marksman to be able to take advantage of the ROF advantage since it the base accuracy isn't good enough to consistently land headshots.

 

In any event, the Suppressor is overall a bit better than Paladin vs mooks, but the Paladin is much better vs armor.  I guess you can use rarity to partially explain that.

 

I agree with this... to a degree.

 

Like I wrote in the previous post, Suppressor can have similar shots to kill than Paladin, but that requires a very specific setup. Paladin can one-shot or two-shot any mook short of a Phantom on any kit, without any power/passive min-maxing.

 

Paladin also loses efficiency at longer ranges due to reticle bloom. On the other hand, it actually benefits from ROF boosts.

 

To be honest, I find Suppressor's advantages in mook killing rather negligible. The potential is there, but is there a single ME3 player currently playing the game that's able to tap into that?

[Alfonsedode]

I think we need a live test

but 0.6 refire delay is quite much and doesnt always fit the aiming rythm and mooks movement. So i guess it s down to personnal felling.

[LemurFromTheId]

I think we need a live test

but 0.6 refire delay is quite much and doesnt always fit the aiming rythm and mooks movement. So i guess it s down to personnal felling.

 

Well, that 0.6 becomes 0.522 with Hunter Mode and 0.480, 0.444, 0.429 or 0.400 with Marksman, so you have options.

 

EDIT: Aaaand there's Devastator Mode too, of course. That's 0.545 or 0.480. Am I still forgetting something?

[TheNightSlasher]

Overall, arc pistol is far better than suppressor and paladin. Arc pistol is in the same league as wraith IMO as far as efficiency is concerned. It is in the OP regime, not quite reegar or hurricane level though.

Arc pistol is a little more forgiving than paladin when it comes to body shots as it still does monstrous damage. Paladin needs head shots every now and then to compete for a position with the arc pistol.
As for suppressor, it is extremely unforgiving if you don't headshot - mediocre damage, mediocre ammo qty etc.

As I see it, suppressor is more of a 'I want to headshot and get better at it' sort of gun. That's the niche of the gun and precisely why I love it - headshot or get shot.

If I were to rank them as far as overall effectiveness goes, arc pistol > paladin > suppressor, be it mooks or mob or bosses, with suppressor giving the other two a very close competition vs. mooks if you can consistently land headshots.

[LemurFromTheId]

Overall, arc pistol is far better than suppressor and paladin. Arc pistol is in the same league as wraith IMO as far as efficiency is concerned. It is in the OP regime, not quite reegar or hurricane level though.

 

Yup, that's why I was leaving Arc out of the discussion.

[capn233]

I agree with this... to a degree.

 

Like I wrote in the previous post, Suppressor can have similar shots to kill than Paladin, but that requires a very specific setup. Paladin can one-shot or two-shot any mook short of a Phantom on any kit, without any power/passive min-maxing.

 

Paladin also loses efficiency at longer ranges due to reticle bloom. On the other hand, it actually benefits from ROF boosts.

 

To be honest, I find Suppressor's advantages in mook killing rather negligible. The potential is there, but is there a single ME3 player currently playing the game that's able to tap into that?

 

You don't really need to be superman to beat the Paladin with the Suppressor against mooks.  You really just need above average weapon passive or an accuracy bonus.

 

In terms of balance I would agree that Suppressor's mook advantage isn't quite as good as it should have been.  It should nearly do what the Arc Pistol does on a low damage bonus character, and Arc Pistol should have been designed as an anti-shield weapon.

 

Arc pistol is in the same league as wraith IMO as far as efficiency is concerned.

 

The Arc Pistol is way above the Wraith's league.

[TheNightSlasher]

The Arc Pistol is way above the Wraith's league.

I find them pretty equal in terms of effectiveness.

 

Both can 1-2 shot kill most mooks. Some may need 3 if you don't headshot.

Both 'ignore' shield gate.

Wraith has slightly better boss DPS (speaking from experience)

Both have access to some of the best mods in the game.

Both weapons fit every class like a glove.

 

So, in terms of effectiveness, I'd say they are equal. 

 

Arc pistol has a slight edge vs. cerberus because of it's relatively better performance vs. phantoms where as wraith is slightly better vs. reapers (speaking from my experience obv). They are kinda comparable vs. geth and collectors. So, I'd say they are pretty equal in terms of how powerful they are. I wouldn't say one is way better than the other.

[capn233]

Wraith does not have better DPS, the Arc Pistol beats it by about 200dps vs any defense.

 

The Wraith only has similar shots to kill at close range where Arc Pistol has all range capability (unlike some other weapons that try to claim it).

Arc also gets to shoot accurately on the run.

 

Arc is slightly lighter and is a rarity tier down.

 

Basically the Wraith has the advantage at close range on a character with very meager or 0 passive weapon damage bonus, otherwise the Arc pulls past the break point on whatever character.  For instance, at 0 passive bonus Arc takes 2 shots to kill a Goon whereas Wraith has something like 260 overkill damage if all pellets hit the head.

 

With 0 passive bonus the Arc should one-shot all gold Reaper mooks, and since it has better armor DPS should have the advantage there.

 

It takes a bit of passive bonus for Arc to kill a Hunter in one shot, but Geth also have small heads and the Wraith probably doesn't get to leverage the damage advantage when pellets are out of HS bonus.  Who knows, I think it is a wash until Arc has more damage bonus or Wraith gets accuracy bonuses.

 

This theoretical Wraith only has an advantage against a Possessed Trooper for Collectors.  Otherwise it is similar, and I would argue Arc is overall better against Gold Collectors.

[TheNightSlasher]

^ Theoretically, you may be correct. But arc pistol's charging mechanic and wraith's ease of use (relatively) makes wraith lot more convenient to use vs. boss' armor IMO. 

 

Even if arc is better (which wouldn't surprise me), it's not 'way above' the wraith's league. They are quite similar in terms of effectiveness and OP level. 

[capn233]

Not particularly.  I will grant that Wraith is somewhat easier to use but I don't ever tend to give the easier to use argument a whole lot of weight unless it is press to erase like the Reegar.

 

The Arc Pistol appears about twice as often in the Gold Speedrun thread.  And that is biased way towards Glacier which is where the Wraith would be the best match for it.

[Terminator Force]

Well the more firing delay of the Paladin is a benefit too. You don't just line up head shots instantly. What I noticed with the Kishock, with me charging not being a problem cause within some of it's charge time is the time I need to line up a headshot, and always shoot when it's lined up, not worrying at all how charged it is.

 

So far I also love my new Paladin X as my favourite pistol, I should say. Going to give the Suppressor some more love in the coming days and see how that goes? Seen Tchocky use it yesterday very well.

[LemurFromTheId]

Arc Pistol is definitely better than Wraith, in my opinion. It can kill a mook almost every second. Wraith shoots every 1.5 seconds on average, but a kill is far from quaranteed beyond medium range. And then there's weight, rarity, charge gimmicks...

 

Personally I consider Arc Pistol OP. Wraith... not quite, but close.

[Deerber]

 

I am accounting for re-targeting on the Paladin. It has 0.6 sec shot interval. If you can't acquire a new target in that time, you can hardly be better with the Suppressor, can you? 

 

No, you're not

 

You said that a paladin could kill what feneckus kills in those portions of vid in less time than he does with a suppressor - and this is not true, not unless the user is a lot better than Feneckus at shooting things.

 

Simply put, if it takes more than 0.6 secs per shot on average to him, it means it took him more than 0.6 secs to retarget, so it would take just as much if he was using a paladin. You compared a theoretical situation for the paladin with a practical one for the suppressor, so the results do not reflect neither theory nor practice.

 

Let's clear this up. I'll assume that both a paladin and a suppressor take the same amount of time to switch from one head to another (safe assumption, I hope, and something I'll call retargeting delay from now on). I will also assume that both guns are capable of one-shotting health enemies and 2 shotting shielded ones, which is always the case under the right circumstances and builds (except for phantoms maybe, but that only works in the suppressor's favor). I'll also address your point about this later, by the way.

 

Now, under these assumptions, there is no way on Earth that a paladin can kill an x amount of mooks any faster than the suppressor would in the same hands. At the very best, the paladin will kill things just as fast as the suppressor, no more. And that would actually be at the very worst, meaning that the player needs to always have a retargeting delay ≥ 0.6 secs. Anytime he can retarget the heads in less than that time the suppressor collects an advantage that is never lost.

 

Now, let us talk about this 0.6 secs. It's a short time - sure. But is it short enough that noone is able to shoot faster than that? I wouldn't say so, to be honest. If the targets are far apart then it is indeed hard to shoot faster than that... But if the targets are close enough... Things change. I'm not the best shot on the planet, but I'm sure I can shoot heads faster than that, if they're close together. So for me, personally, I do notice that I'm able to kill mooks significantly faster with a suppressor than with a paladin.

 

Now let's address another point - ammo. Not the ammo supply of the guns, which I know is shitty on the suppressor and everyone complains about it, but that falls under its weaknesses, which I'm not denying at all, although I feel they're overstressed around here at times. But the effect of this on its killing effectiveness are hard to quantify and they never apply to the first spawn you meet, so I'll disregard it here.

 

So, let's talk about the ammo both guns have in the magazine. If you're smart, one has 10 bullets and the other has... 5? 6? Can't even recall. That is a huge difference as well. If you're trying to make every shot count, then it simply means that you'll be able to keep firing longer. 6 shots on the paladin are enough to kill 2 shielded mooks and 2 unshielded ones. After that... You've got to reload. And that adds almost a whole second to the time it takes to clear the spawn. 10 shots on the suppressor, instead, are enough to wipe any spawn without sub-boss level enemies, without having to reload.

 

In fact, your computation here

 

And as for groups of mooks... Well, Paladin can still kill a five-mook spawn with 5-7 shots, depending on the types of mooks and whether Overload/whatever is needed/available etc. That's 2.4-3.6 seconds. Can Suppressor do it faster? Theoretically yes. In practice? Maybe. If you have a setup that can one-shot mooks, if you can accurately re-target in less than 0.6 seconds, then yes, you might shave off, what? Half a second? A full second? I'll believe it when I see it. 

 

Does not really reflect reality. A spawn of five mooks has, more often than not, at least 2 shielded ones. Which means you'll need at least 7 shots with a paladin and, therefore, you'll need to reload. So the time it takes (in the 2 shielded mooks case) is around 4.5 secs, not 3.6. So if with a suppressor I was able to shave off a half second before (and I'm pretty sure I am, if the group is tight enough), after you account for the reload the difference is around 1.3-1.4 secs. On a maximum of 4.5 secs, that's not extreme, but well significant I'd say.

 

But that is not the only advantage of having a bigger clip. Another advantage is that, provided you're willing to lose some bullets, you can fire more bullets than what's needed. Not talking about spray and pray, but just aim for the head and fire 3-4 shots against a shielded enemy in quick sequence... Your chances of killing him will be significantly higher than if you were to fire only 2 shots with a paladin. Well, this is intuitive I guess... If you fire 4 shots you have more chances of either of the first 3 hitting the head than the chance of the first of 2 shots doing the same.

 

Or, to see the same thing from another perspective: we are not perfect. Everyone misses heads, even relatively often. When you miss a paladin shot... You'll have to wait 0.6 secs to fire again. When you miss a suppressor shot, all you have to do is click again.

 

 

To sum this up. When you compare the paladin with the suppressor (in the latter's niche, and assuming the player is a pretty good shot), I feel that the following is true (always my opinion, hope I didn't need to specify it XD):

 

- the paladin will never be better than the suppressor, but at most, it will be as good as

 

- the suppressor will usually be better, but the difference will not be very significant unless the circumstances at the following point are true

 

- if you have to kill either a single shielded target, or a tight group of mooks, the suppressor will become significantly better

 

That said, among the other obvious advantages the Paladin has over the suppressor outside the latter's niche, there is also a matter of accuracy: the suppressor's is somewhat mediocre, making long-range sniping pretty hard unless under marksman. The Paladin, on the other hand, is much more accurate. But, we all know that the biggest part of the engagements in this game come as either short or medium range ones. I guess if one wanted to nitpick, he could say that the suppressor's niche is really only killing mooks at close and medium range.

 

Yes, Suppressor can kill a shielded target faster than Paladin. I've never denied that. On the other hand, Paladin can one-shot unshielded mooks and two-shot others on just about any kit, without any special weapon damage bonuses, yet one-shotting cannibals or collector troopers and two-shotting shielded mooks with the Suppressor requires a very specific setup (a regular adept can't do that). And it's much easier to make a single shot count than to pull of several quick headshots on a moving enemy.
 

 

 

On this, I agree. See, I'm not saying that the suppressor is a better gun than the paladin here. The Paladin is indisputably a better all-around gun. Heck, a suppressor can't even one-clip a turret! >.<

 

So yes, the suppressor does need a lot of work to make it work. You have to use the right build, and you have to use the gun right... Which is not easy at all. But what I'm trying to say is that when you do that, and when you confront it with other weapons in the same niche, aka mass mook murder... It is, simply, the best you can get. Something that the paladin never is, even when you try real hard to make it work at its best. Now you might say that it's not better enough to justify all the work you had to do, and I'll say that yeah, I understand anyone feeling that way. To me, all that work is also part of the charm of the gun, so I don't feel the same, but I understand it.

 

All I'm trying to say here is that the suppressor is, actually, in some circumstances, the best mook killer in the game. Just that.

 

 

Overall, arc pistol is far better than suppressor and paladin. Arc pistol is in the same league as wraith IMO as far as efficiency is concerned. It is in the OP regime, not quite reegar or hurricane level though.

Arc pistol is a little more forgiving than paladin when it comes to body shots as it still does monstrous damage. Paladin needs head shots every now and then to compete for a position with the arc pistol.
As for suppressor, it is extremely unforgiving if you don't headshot - mediocre damage, mediocre ammo qty etc.

As I see it, suppressor is more of a 'I want to headshot and get better at it' sort of gun. That's the niche of the gun and precisely why I love it - headshot or get shot. 

If I were to rank them as far as overall effectiveness goes, arc pistol > paladin > suppressor, be it mooks or mob or bosses, with suppressor giving the other two a very close competition vs. mooks if you can consistently land headshots.

 

 

I was with you until the very end. Yes, both the arc pistol and the paladin are better guns than the suppressor. And yes, the arc pistol is in the godly OP department. And yes, both the other guns are much more forgiving than the suppressor, and that only adds to the gun's charm.

 

But sorry, against mooks, and when the suppressor is loaded and used the right way, the arc pistol won't hold a candle to it. You can do pretty much the same reasoning we and aedolon did for the paladin - except that the arc fires just once every 1 sec, because you need to charge it up. So it has an even worse RoF than the paladin and is even less effective at killing.

 

That said, it has a hell of a lot of other things in which it's completely on another level than the other two guns, so no question it's a godly gun

[smeckie]

Shrimp soup, shrimp scallops, shrimp kabobs, deep fried shrimp, coconut shrimp, steamed shrimp, breaded shrimp, shrimp gumbo, shrimp creole, shrimp stew, shrimp salad, pepper shrimp, shrimp and potatoes, shrimp burger, shrimp sandwich......

[LemurFromTheId]

HOLY MOTHER OF ALL POSTS!!!

 

I'll get back to you, Deerber. I just don't know where to start.

[NuclearTech76]

 

 

 

No, you're not

 

You said that a paladin could kill what feneckus kills in those portions of vid in less time than he does with a suppressor - and this is not true, not unless the user is a lot better than Feneckus at shooting things.

 

Simply put, if it takes more than 0.6 secs per shot on average to him, it means it took him more than 0.6 secs to retarget, so it would take just as much if he was using a paladin. You compared a theoretical situation for the paladin with a practical one for the suppressor, so the results do not reflect neither theory nor practice.

 

Let's clear this up. I'll assume that both a paladin and a suppressor take the same amount of time to switch from one head to another (safe assumption, I hope, and something I'll call retargeting delay from now on). I will also assume that both guns are capable of one-shotting health enemies and 2 shotting shielded ones, which is always the case under the right circumstances and builds (except for phantoms maybe, but that only works in the suppressor's favor). I'll also address your point about this later, by the way.

 

Now, under these assumptions, there is no way on Earth that a paladin can kill an x amount of mooks any faster than the suppressor would in the same hands. At the very best, the paladin will kill things just as fast as the suppressor, no more. And that would actually be at the very worst, meaning that the player needs to always have a retargeting delay ≥ 0.6 secs. Anytime he can retarget the heads in less than that time the suppressor collects an advantage that is never lost.

 

Now, let us talk about this 0.6 secs. It's a short time - sure. But is it short enough that noone is able to shoot faster than that? I wouldn't say so, to be honest. If the targets are far apart then it is indeed hard to shoot faster than that... But if the targets are close enough... Things change. I'm not the best shot on the planet, but I'm sure I can shoot heads faster than that, if they're close together. So for me, personally, I do notice that I'm able to kill mooks significantly faster with a suppressor than with a paladin.

 

Now let's address another point - ammo. Not the ammo supply of the guns, which I know is shitty on the suppressor and everyone complains about it, but that falls under its weaknesses, which I'm not denying at all, although I feel they're overstressed around here at times. But the effect of this on its killing effectiveness are hard to quantify and they never apply to the first spawn you meet, so I'll disregard it here.

 

So, let's talk about the ammo both guns have in the magazine. If you're smart, one has 10 bullets and the other has... 5? 6? Can't even recall. That is a huge difference as well. If you're trying to make every shot count, then it simply means that you'll be able to keep firing longer. 6 shots on the paladin are enough to kill 2 shielded mooks and 2 unshielded ones. After that... You've got to reload. And that adds almost a whole second to the time it takes to clear the spawn. 10 shots on the suppressor, instead, are enough to wipe any spawn without sub-boss level enemies, without having to reload.

 

In fact, your computation here

 

 

Does not really reflect reality. A spawn of five mooks has, more often than not, at least 2 shielded ones. Which means you'll need at least 7 shots with a paladin and, therefore, you'll need to reload. So the time it takes (in the 2 shielded mooks case) is around 4.5 secs, not 3.6. So if with a suppressor I was able to shave off a half second before (and I'm pretty sure I am, if the group is tight enough), after you account for the reload the difference is around 1.3-1.4 secs. On a maximum of 4.5 secs, that's not extreme, but well significant I'd say.

 

But that is not the only advantage of having a bigger clip. Another advantage is that, provided you're willing to lose some bullets, you can fire more bullets than what's needed. Not talking about spray and pray, but just aim for the head and fire 3-4 shots against a shielded enemy in quick sequence... Your chances of killing him will be significantly higher than if you were to fire only 2 shots with a paladin. Well, this is intuitive I guess... If you fire 4 shots you have more chances of either of the first 3 hitting the head than the chance of the first of 2 shots doing the same.

 

Or, to see the same thing from another perspective: we are not perfect. Everyone misses heads, even relatively often. When you miss a paladin shot... You'll have to wait 0.6 secs to fire again. When you miss a suppressor shot, all you have to do is click again.

 

 

To sum this up. When you compare the paladin with the suppressor (in the latter's niche, and assuming the player is a pretty good shot), I feel that the following is true (always my opinion, hope I didn't need to specify it XD):

 

- the paladin will never be better than the suppressor, but at most, it will be as good as

 

- the suppressor will usually be better, but the difference will not be very significant unless the circumstances at the following point are true

 

- if you have to kill either a single shielded target, or a tight group of mooks, the suppressor will become significantly better

 

That said, among the other obvious advantages the Paladin has over the suppressor outside the latter's niche, there is also a matter of accuracy: the suppressor's is somewhat mediocre, making long-range sniping pretty hard unless under marksman. The Paladin, on the other hand, is much more accurate. But, we all know that the biggest part of the engagements in this game come as either short or medium range ones. I guess if one wanted to nitpick, he could say that the suppressor's niche is really only killing mooks at close and medium range.

 

 

On this, I agree. See, I'm not saying that the suppressor is a better gun than the paladin here. The Paladin is indisputably a better all-around gun. Heck, a suppressor can't even one-clip a turret! >.<

 

So yes, the suppressor does need a lot of work to make it work. You have to use the right build, and you have to use the gun right... Which is not easy at all. But what I'm trying to say is that when you do that, and when you confront it with other weapons in the same niche, aka mass mook murder... It is, simply, the best you can get. Something that the paladin never is, even when you try real hard to make it work at its best. Now you might say that it's not better enough to justify all the work you had to do, and I'll say that yeah, I understand anyone feeling that way. To me, all that work is also part of the charm of the gun, so I don't feel the same, but I understand it.

 

All I'm trying to say here is that the suppressor is, actually, in some circumstances, the best mook killer in the game. Just that.

 

 

 

I was with you until the very end. Yes, both the arc pistol and the paladin are better guns than the suppressor. And yes, the arc pistol is in the godly OP department. And yes, both the other guns are much more forgiving than the suppressor, and that only adds to the gun's charm.

 

But sorry, against mooks, and when the suppressor is loaded and used the right way, the arc pistol won't hold a candle to it. You can do pretty much the same reasoning we and aedolon did for the paladin - except that the arc fires just once every 1 sec, because you need to charge it up. So it has an even worse RoF than the paladin and is even less effective at killing.

 

That said, it has a hell of a lot of other things in which it's completely on another level than the other two guns, so no question it's a godly gun

 

But I didn't read it. 

[smeckie]

HOLY MOTHER OF ALL POSTS!!!

I'll get back to you, Deerber. I just don't know where to start.

My god I thought of Bubba from Forrest Gump when I seen the huge ass post.

[Deerber]

HOLY MOTHER OF ALL POSTS!!!

I'll get back to you, Deerber. I just don't know where to start.

Lol. Yeah sorry, I had to delve away from real life for a while XD

Edit: good god, I didn't think I had written that much XD

Also, why doesn't it let me like aedolon's comment!? Origginnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!

[Mindlog]

 

But that is not the only advantage of having a bigger clip. Another advantage is that, provided you're willing to lose some bullets, you can fire more bullets than what's needed. Not talking about spray and pray, but just aim for the head and fire 3-4 shots against a shielded enemy in quick sequence... Your chances of killing him will be significantly higher than if you were to fire only 2 shots with a paladin.

 

For me on console that's actually part of my biggest complaint with the Supressor. I constanly lose bullets and time because there's not enough splash when you do actually land the headshot. Too often I find myself moving on when the target isn't dead or losing very precious ammo shooting corpses. Arc Pistol and the heavier pistols have a marvelous shoot -> splash rhythm.

 

On PC with better resolution and screen size to distance ratio it's not as much of an issue.