113 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

I meant that as well, but certainly more viable to terraform a nearby or our own solar system.
 
Creating Dyson Spheres and Shells would be just as impressive, but not cost as much resources if we use drones to collect materials and build it, because they can go faster in space.

True, a Dyson Sphere (with a planet colony built around it as a Dyson Shell) could be a long term means of survival. But I wonder at the potential repercussions in the solar system affected. Or even the galaxy in general, should a large number to them be built.

[Gravisanimi]

Yes, the slight chance of a Dyson Shell pulling on the star, causing it to age faster and engulf said shell would be an issue

[mybudgee]

Think about how easy it is to hide something from a dog, and how utterly cluelesd they are about it. Is it really so inconcievable that an advanced race of E.T.s are doing more or less the same thing to us regarding their presence?

[Gravisanimi]

That's possible, but we also have to take into account the psychology and communal practices of E.T.'s

 

Let's say one day humanity is in the same position we are suggesting. The majority of humanity may agree to leave the lesser-developed civilization, but there still as a minority that would disagree.

 

Since the majority want the minority to stay away, there would have to be a group to "defend" the smaller civilization from the minority's desire to connect.

 

This would eventually get to the point that the minority would work to break past the group defending the civilization.

 

But that is the human psychology.

 

We have no idea what or how they think.

[Obadiah]

Think about how easy it is to hide something from a dog, and how utterly cluelesd they are about it. Is it really so inconcievable that an advanced race of E.T.s are doing more or less the same thing to us regarding their presence?

Talk like that is just going to make everyone paranoid.

[Shermos]

Think about how easy it is to hide something from a dog, and how utterly cluelesd they are about it. Is it really so inconcievable that an advanced race of E.T.s are doing more or less the same thing to us regarding their presence?

 

Yes. It's quite arrogant on our part to assume we could detect advanced civilisations in our galaxy with our current abilities. We can barely guess what kind of advances a civilisation a million years ahead of us could have made. A civilisation a billion years ahead of us likely unfathomable to us.

 

The Physicist Michio Kaku puts this argument very well:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=Kw8dcb8iKSM

[Fast Jimmy]

Think about how easy it is to hide something from a dog, and how utterly cluelesd they are about it. Is it really so inconcievable that an advanced race of E.T.s are doing more or less the same thing to us regarding their presence?

But the problem is that you aren't thinking fourth dimensionally, Marty!

Removing all sembelence of an alien race's existence could be possible. But the thing is that any signals, energy signatures or other technological footprint from any time BEFORE that would still be floating all over space. We are able to see remnants of the Big Bang in distant energy signals, which occurred trillions of years ago. If an advanced society even took 100 years to go from using radio waves to being so advanced as to be able to completely hide their energy signature (something we aren't even remotely close to doing 100 years after the radio wave) there would still be a century's worth of communication and detectable traces out there in the cosmos for us to pick up.

The fact that we are able to look even as far away as distant galaxies and yet we haven't been able to pick up even something remotely resembling an advanced energy signal from a race who, even if more advanced now, had to be as primitive as we are/were at one point, isn't very reassuring.



To match it up to your analogy... the human hiding the bone had to have been a dog at some point. So we'd expect to see their buried bones in the yard, even if they are hiding the doggie treats from us.

[mybudgee]

What if the bone is made of a substance that is nowhere near the hydrogen part of the spectrum? A race which has the ability to phase in and out of our reality, our "dimension" as easily as we go through fad diets?? What if they are observing this thread right now, nudging each other & laughing...?

[Fast Jimmy]

What if the bone is made of a substance that is nowhere near the hydrogen part of the spectrum? A race which has the ability to phase in and out of our reality, our "dimension" as easily as we go through fad diets?? What if they are observing this thread right now, nudging each other & laughing...?

Then they would be extra-dimensional in origin, which proves the point Fermi was making that sentient life must be a rare occurrence. Unless, of course, these extra-dimensional aliens are purposefully blocking us from finding evidence of other societies native to this dimension. Which would be a dick move.

[bEVEsthda]

Just as we cannot imagine the abilities of a civilization millions years older than us, we also cannot imagine what might actually be impossible.

 

For instance, FTL travel might be impossible. And, also for example, building a Dyson sphere might be practically impossible, for reasons we do not yet understand.

 

So a civilization is million of years older than us. It's easy enough to dream up flitting in and out of hyperspace and fantasize about Dyson spheres, but we do not know where development will take them.

Look back to our own past history. We landed on the Moon 1969, during a time when aviation and rocketry advanced in great leaps. What did the humans think about the future, back in 1969?  I think there are enough evidence in the form of movies like 2001, 2010, energy-department projections and popular science journalism.

 

Of course cars would fly and be atomic-powered. Right? All flight would be supersonic and the moon would be colonized and man would have traveled to Mars.

 

Where we went instead, the IT revolution, wasn't quite predicted. Not until late.

 

There are problems with "big and more" that aren't easily solved by technology and economy. The world is today running out of sand and gravel that is suitable for concrete! Really! We didn't quite see that coming, did we? The demands on structural strength of anything increases with the cube of the linear size. But the strength only increases with the square. This physical fact about the influence of scale, is the nemesis of anything big, and the explanation of why ants are so strong in relation to their size.

 

We can only barely discover the existance of giant planets a few lightyears away. That is an important discovery, because it proves that planetary systems are the norm for virtually all stars, not a rare fluke. So there is an abundance of planets out there. But we have not discovered any planet that could originate and sustain advanced life. As we know it. It takes a combination of a number of factors - which I've mentioned before - as we know it. Such planets exist. There should be some probability confidence about that. But they're rare. So why, when we can barely discover the mere existance of giant planets close by, would it be so strange that we haven't discovered another technical civilization yet?

[CavalierToast]

What did the humans think about the future, back in 1969?  I think there are enough evidence in the form of movies like 2001, 2010, energy-department projections and popular science journalism.

And next year will be 2015, and Marty McFly is here again.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Any form of colonization is a huge upfront investment and gamble. For Columbus to "discover" America, it required huge government backing, just like space travel does today. Colonization of the Americas required insane investments of resources, ships and money. Yet now, the world is dependent on the economy and resources of the Western Hemisphere.

Space is a gateway into unlimited resources, space and energy. There are storms on planets in our solar system that are larger than Earth itself - what if we could tap into that as an energy source that would dwarf what petroleum gives us? The asteroid belt has more minerals and natural resources than can be found on entire continents - what if we could sustain our current quality of life through mining operations that won't run "dry" for millenia? There are moons nearby which may have enough water to not only sustain life, but offer the chance at long-term sustainability - what if we could resolve world overpopulation and hunger with a whole second, third or fourth homeworld to sustain life and crops?

Yes, there are lots of huge hurdles to overcome. But just like Europe didn't wait until it had completely mastered nautical navigation and feeding all of its citizens before it could invest huge amounts of capital into settling another continent, the same could be said of humanity and space. We must explore the boundaries of our existence and technology in ways that seem impossible today for us to keep moving towards greater events in the future. Because only by chasing the impossible do we make our reality immeasurably better.

 

Expansion is driven by need and greed. And cost/beneftit analyisis.

 

If there is no need to colonize Mars, no one will do it since it's too much work.

 

So, if humanty does one day decide to colonize another planet, it certainly won't be trying to colonize another one any time soon, given that it will have all the resoruces and space necessary for a while. And it will also have it's hand full building that new world.

[Fast Jimmy]

Expansion is driven by need and greed. And cost/beneftit analyisis.

If there is no need to colonize Mars, no one will do it since it's too much work.

So, if humanty does one day decide to colonize another planet, it certainly won't be trying to colonize another one any time soon, given that it will have all the resoruces and space necessary for a while. And it will also have it's hand full building that new world.

Europe wasn't interested in colonizing a New World when they funded Columbus. They wanted a trade route to find India that didn't involve going around the Horn of Africa. Instead of India, they found the West Indies.

If we wait until it makes perfect money sense to begin focusing on space, it will be too late. By thinking proactively and long term now and investing dollars to widen our horizons as a species, we will be better prepared when something happens that makes it imperative we expand or get off the planet as soon as possible.

Spain didn't wait until they were dead broke to begin exploring new spice trades. And by doing so, they accidentally stumbled across New World gold that made them the richest nation in the world for centuries. Science, exploration and innovation are saturated with examples of happy accidents resulting in wildly successful outcomes through zero intent of the people involved.

[Lotion Soronarr]

As you said - happy accident.

They went out there because they saw profit.

 

Colonizing plants is hardly profitable given the redicolous costs.

 

Same goes for Dyson Spheres. They are a pipe dream. At beast you will have a few space stations around the sun.

[Fast Jimmy]

As you said - happy accident.
They went out there because they saw profit.
 
Colonizing plants is hardly profitable given the redicolous costs.
 
Same goes for Dyson Spheres. They are a pipe dream. At beast you will have a few space stations around the sun.

Dyson spheres are pipe dreams at this point, yes. But having a ship that could sail around the world was a pipe dream in the 1500's, yet was accomplished just 100 years later in the 1600's. Having a ship that was submersible was a pipe dream in the 1700's, but was made a rudimentary reality during the 1800's. Flight was considered a pipe dream in the early 1900's, yet not only did we fly, we flew around the world and out into space in less than 100 years.

At this point, I'm not sure what type of world could exist in 2114 at this rate of knowledge expansion. But I do know that if we don't continue to support all science endeavors, including space exploration, if will be really sad if it looks a lot like to does today.

[bEVEsthda]

It's not "profitable" to build a house. Not in terms of the lifespan of those who often embark on this. The value of the house will be realized by the bank's and property owners' estimate and expectations of it's long term utility and thus desirability and market value.

 

The Earth cannot sustain an evolving, human, technical civilization. If we do not get our butt out of here, to find new resources to sustain our civilization, and better locations to build our production facilities, the Earth will soon belong to a crashing ecology and roving, shrinking bands of cannibal scavengers, probably held together by some insane religions and ruthless warlords. Then it'll all end with a whimper. Some 50 million years later, descendants of our dear rats may have another shot at a civilization cycle.

 

The obvious short term solution is to build habitats in space. It goes hand in hand with colonizing the Moon and planets like Mars, but the real object would be to colonize space itself, not planets.

 

I do not believe that this process will eventually result in a Dyson sphere, because I believe there are tremendous social and celestial-physical problems which are essentially unsolvable. So before the solar system approaches maxed-out utility, going to a different solar system has to be looked into.

At that time, I believe it'll have been feasible for some time. Even at slower than light speed.

[fchopin]

As you said - happy accident.
They went out there because they saw profit.
 
Colonizing plants is hardly profitable given the redicolous costs.

It is not profitable now but I am sure it will be one day and big companies will not want to be left behind so I am sure they will be making deals with governments to be part of the exploration and share the cost.

[metatheurgist]

Expansion is driven by need and greed. And cost/beneftit analyisis.
 
If there is no need to colonize Mars, no one will do it since it's too much work.

You forgot reality TV.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Conclusion:

Everyone should go suicidal because we assumed there is a paradox here! lol

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dyson spheres are pipe dreams at this point, yes. But having a ship that could sail around the world was a pipe dream in the 1500's, yet was accomplished just 100 years later in the 1600's. Having a ship that was submersible was a pipe dream in the 1700's, but was made a rudimentary reality during the 1800's. Flight was considered a pipe dream in the early 1900's, yet not only did we fly, we flew around the world and out into space in less than 100 years.

At this point, I'm not sure what type of world could exist in 2114 at this rate of knowledge expansion. But I do know that if we don't continue to support all science endeavors, including space exploration, if will be really sad if it looks a lot like to does today.

 

Not even remotely comparable. (You COULD sail around the world in 1500's b.t.w)

 

There is a difference between "we do not have the technical knowledge to do this" and "we have a pretty good idea how to do this and it is theoretically possible, but time, effort, resources and will required are so massive, that it will never, ever be done".

 

Dyson spheres are a redicolous concept, requireing more material than there is in a star system, practicly endless time and effort, and for what?

For that one static spehere, you can make a million starships or space stations.

 

Not to mention all the structural and design problem with making that a sphere inhe first place. You're better off making a ring.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Dyson spheres are a redicolous concept, requireing more material than there is in a star system, practicly endless time and effort, and for what?

For that one static spehere, you can make a million starships or space stations.

 

Not to mention all the structural and design problem with making that a sphere inhe first place. You're better off making a ring.

 

In '3001: The Final Odyssey' there is one huge & tall tower on earth that works as a medium size city and space harbor and I think that's enough for earth.

[FlyingSquirrel]

That's possible, but we also have to take into account the psychology and communal practices of E.T.'s

 

Let's say one day humanity is in the same position we are suggesting. The majority of humanity may agree to leave the lesser-developed civilization, but there still as a minority that would disagree.

 

Since the majority want the minority to stay away, there would have to be a group to "defend" the smaller civilization from the minority's desire to connect.

 

This would eventually get to the point that the minority would work to break past the group defending the civilization.

 

But that is the human psychology.

 

We have no idea what or how they think.

 

Well, in the earlier stages of exploration, most people probably still wouldn't have access to space travel technology, and it would probably have to be developed with the cooperation of governments, which could pass laws restricting ownership and use of space vehicles capable of long-distance travel. So keeping dissenters from trying to contact other species on their own and administering criminal penalties for anyone who tries it would probably keep things under wraps for a while, at least. Also, if we *are* talking about a human-like species, there would probably be (whether warranted or not) a certain fear of other species to accompany the curiosity, such that the number of people willing to break the law and undertake rogue exploration and contact missions would be relatively small.

 

But I agree that differences in psychology could also be a barrier to contact. There could be an advanced species where very few individuals even care about the possibility of life on other planets, or one where the fear/curiosity balance is tilted overwhelmingly towards fear. In the latter case, they might well conduct any exploration missions entirely secretively, i.e. with probes that self-destruct at the first sign of detection by sentient beings or unrecognized advanced technology, or with some sort of "cloaking device" that prevents us from knowing that they're around.

[bEVEsthda]

There are endless possibilities.

 

1: Aliens are advanced over our heads, but affable, friendly, generous and tolerant, having long since fixed any issues they've had with racism, nationalism, war etc.

They wish us only the best, and immediately discovers that the Earth and Humanity is severely threatened. Poof! There, they fixed that problem for us, using their superior technology. They've culled the population and killed 96% of all humanity. It's what we would have done, to any animal population which have escalated out of control and threatens to ruin the eco-system.

 

2: There may have existed such alien civilizations (as above) at some time, unfortunately the galaxy is an evolutionary competition between civilizations, and only the Borg-like ones are left to slug it out. They finish us in one bite.

[Fast Jimmy]

There are endless possibilities.
 
1: Aliens are advanced over our heads, but affable, friendly, generous and tolerant, having long since fixed any issues they've had with racism, nationalism, war etc.
They wish us only the best, and immediately discovers that the Earth and Humanity is severely threatened. Poof! There, they fixed that problem for us, using their superior technology. They've culled the population and killed 96% of all humanity. It's what we would have done, to any animal population which have escalated out of control and threatens to ruin the eco-system.
 
2: There may have existed such alien civilizations (as above) at some time, unfortunately the galaxy is an evolutionary competition between civilizations, and only the Borg-like ones are left to slug it out. They finish us in one bite.

3. Aliens judge a society not on their technology, but on their break dancing abilities. When we are ready to prove ourselves, the aliens will land and engage in the ultimate break dance battle for the survival of our species.

[Vortex13]

How boring would it be if we discovered that we were the only sentient species in the entire universe? If that the aliens we discovered were no more intelligent then a dog or a chimpanzee?