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[Fast Jimmy]

How boring would it be if we discovered that we were the only sentient species in the entire universe? If that the aliens we discovered were no more intelligent then a dog or a chimpanzee?

<shrug> Give it time?

We could be like the Protheans, raising up primitive races to become more than the slightly intelligent animals they were.

[Eurypterid]

How boring would it be if we discovered that we were the only sentient species in the entire universe? If that the aliens we discovered were no more intelligent then a dog or a chimpanzee?

Indeed. Too bad the Universe doesn't care whether or not we're bored...

[Reorte]

Yes, the slight chance of a Dyson Shell pulling on the star, causing it to age faster and engulf said shell would be an issue

Or less complete but still vast structures - "The Ringworld is unstable!"

[Vortex13]

Indeed. Too bad the Universe doesn't care whether or not we're bored...

 

 

Well then I kill the universe.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

<shrug> Give it time?

We could be like the Protheans, raising up primitive races to become more than the slightly intelligent animals they were.

 

Don't talk crap about Protheans!

 

 

[bEVEsthda]

To bring some seriousness back to this thread, I don't particularly believe in the Fermi paradox. I think it lacks strength.

But, it might be taken as an indication of that FTL travel might be impossible, or extremely hard to attain.

[mybudgee]

Now that was serious...

[Lotion Soronarr]

How boring would it be if we discovered that we were the only sentient species in the entire universe? If that the aliens we discovered were no more intelligent then a dog or a chimpanzee?

 

Given that I've seen plenty of dogs with more smarts than some humans, I'd say it would be interesting.

[Fast Jimmy]

To bring some seriousness back to this thread, I don't particularly believe in the Fermi paradox. I think it lacks strength.
But, it might be taken as an indication of that FTL travel might be impossible, or extremely hard to attain.

That is my conclusion as well. Which isn't the end of the world. In fact, I think if humanity were to embrace this concept of "FTL is not possibility" as a society, it would make us that much stronger. As can be seen from this thread, people don't want to go out to space until we develop technology that would make it as easy as Star Trek, warping around the galaxy in perfect comfort as we see fit. If FTL was removed rom our collective cultural mindset, people may actually stop seeing going to Mars as a big hassle and, instead, see it as the huge exploration and scientific discovery it really is.



Not to mention our mastery of biochemistry and genetics is advancing at perhaps the fastest rate of any other field, save perhaps computational development. Mars may be an uninhabitable planet for us, but who is to say we couldn't engineer future explorers to survive in a much colder environment without any atmosphere? It would certainly be less of an endeavor than to terraform an entire planet to match exactly our needs.

[bEVEsthda]

... our mastery of biochemistry and genetics is advancing at perhaps the fastest rate of any other field, save perhaps computational development. Mars may be an uninhabitable planet for us, but who is to say we couldn't engineer future explorers to survive in a much colder environment without any atmosphere? It would certainly be less of an endeavor than to terraform an entire planet to match exactly our needs.

 

I don't see that. Our knowledge of biology, biochemistry and genetics certainly advances, but nowhere near as fast as the IT branches (and mainly thanks to). And I don't see that we have ever really succeeded with creating any genetic intentional design. Furthermore, there are boundaries you simply can't cross or stretch. Plants' ability to produce stored energy, biomass, is directly proportional to their ability to evaporate water. As well as their light absorbing area and access to light. There is no such thing as an high yielding desert/arid lands  -crop to invent, or one that will thrive in low light. It cannot be made. Similarly, you can't make humans (or any other higher animal or plant) which will survive (or function) without oxygen/carbon dioxide or at below freezing temperatures or at lower than boiling point pressures. It simply cannot be done.

 

But making Mars progressively more habitable, is not really so hard as some seem to think. The first step is pressure suits and pressurized habitats and vehicles, of course. But pressurizing a larger, "outdoor", geographic area is possible. You simply secure a large, fabric bubble firmly to the ground, along the edge and then through cables - at suitable intervals, to anchors in the ground, I envision it to have a sort of cauliflower structure, - and then you inflate it to the desired pressure. Thus you also retain moisture and water, and increase the ambient temperature. Since making these bubbles larger, only results in advantages - they become more stable, more secure - I can see this patchwork of pressurized land grow extensively.

 

For the next step, giving Mars a thicker atmosphere, it's first necessary to give it a magnetic field (or the solar wind will blow it away, as it already did). But apparently it may be possible to build a planet strength magnetic field generator. It's not something to rule out at this point.

[Fast Jimmy]

I don't see that. Our knowledge of biology, biochemistry and genetics certainly advances, but nowhere near as fast as the IT branches (and mainly thanks to).

To tackle this point first, I totally agree with you. But, then again, think about how much we use IT and other computer related technology. Cell phones, computers, networks, systems... they are all around us and are integrated into our existence.

Meanwhile, biotech and genetics, while advancing rapidly, rarely affect our daily life. But when you consider that it took us over 80 years from the discovery of DNA to the 1990's, when we mapped the human genome, to today, twenty years later, when you can have your DNA mapped in a few weeks for a somewhat steep price tag, it shows progress. Once the technology advanced to do it in less time for cheaper, genetic testing and information will be as common as checking your blood pressure. Then we will see huge advances as practical applications begin making huge profits.

And I don't see that we have ever really succeeded with creating any genetic intentional design. Furthermore, there are boundaries you simply can't cross or stretch. Plants' ability to produce stored energy, biomass, is directly proportional to their ability to evaporate water. As well as their light absorbing area and access to light. There is no such thing as an high yielding desert/arid lands -crop to invent, or one that will thrive in low light. It cannot be made. Similarly, you can't make humans (or any other higher animal or plant) which will survive (or function) without oxygen/carbon dioxide or at below freezing temperatures or at lower than boiling point pressures. It simply cannot be done.

Once genetics becomes common place, that in-depth knowledge of not only what your DNA says, but what it means, we will be able to begin testing and even enhancing humans entirely. Then we can work on integrating traits from other forms of life itk both ourselves and other living things and, suddenly, before 2100, we may be able to make a "human" that is just as able to survive in the cold of Mars without pressure as a shrimp can 20 miles under the ocean in freezing temperatures subsiding off of a lava vent. It's not outside the realm of possibility. After all, think about how huge the plastic surgery business is. You can't tell me people won't shell out huge amounts of dollars in whatever corner of the planet that doesn't step up to block such practices as soon as try are developed to have themselves (or, more feasibly, their kids) be smart, bronzed, good looking, perfectly healthy and athletic?

Once that market takes off, it will only be a matter of time before more "outside the box" applications begin to be discussed and researched.

I'm talking the time scale of decades, if not centuries, down the road. Despite the (understandable) knee jerk reaction by many to such modifications, after the first thousand or so people have it done and don't turn into killer mutants, the tide will tip to the wealthy to the scientifically curious to the common man all in due course.

But making Mars progressively more habitable, is not really so hard as some seem to think. The first step is pressure suits and pressurized habitats and vehicles, of course. But pressurizing a larger, "outdoor", geographic area is possible. You simply secure a large, fabric bubble firmly to the ground, along the edge and then through cables - at suitable intervals, to anchors in the ground, - and then you inflate it to the desired pressure. Thus you also retain moisture and water, and increase the ambient temperature. Since making these bubbles larger, only results in advantages - they become more stable, more secure - I can see this patchwork of pressurized land grow extensively.

For the next step, giving Mars a thicker atmosphere, it's first necessary to give it a magnetic field (or the solar wind will blow it away, as it already did). But apparently it may be possible to build a planet strength magnetic field generator. It's not something to rule out at this point.

Building planetary machines and facilities aren't IMPOSSIBLE, sure. But it is a very long term effort. After all - you are doing a major construction project with very powerful, finely tuned instruments on a planet where you can die just by being exposed to the atmosphere (or lack thereof). All the headaches of the Hoover Dam on steroids, with all of the risk and precautions of treating an Ebola outbreak... and a manpower deficit (in space) that really has no real correlation.

Impossible, of course not. But I'd rather focus on the solution that could have us custom design humans to live on any planet we pick rather than invest untold resources in making just one planet more habitable.

[bEVEsthda]

Once genetics becomes common place, that in-depth knowledge of not only what your DNA says, but what it means, we will be able to begin testing and even enhancing humans entirely. Then we can work on integrating traits from other forms of life itk both ourselves and other living things and, suddenly, before 2100, we may be able to make a "human" that is just as able to survive in the cold of Mars without pressure as a shrimp can 20 miles under the ocean in freezing temperatures subsiding off of a lava vent. It's not outside the realm of possibility.
Once that market takes off, it will only be a matter of time before more "outside the box" applications begin to be discussed and researched.

 

First, just because we've mapped out the human genome, doesn't mean that we're within reach of being able to design and realize complex animals with desired, and vastly altered fundamental properties while retaining original form and function. Genetic engineering is ridiculously complex, and much of its fundamental mechanisms are certain to be unpredictable by their mathematical nature. We're no closer to be able to do that, than Leonardo da Vinci was able to travel to the Andromeda Galaxy, just because he had drawn a bird's wing.

 

Secondly, everything isn't possible. Ever. Biochemistry is not different from normal chemistry. Reactions, and the rate of the reactions, take place due to the conditions. Elements, catalysts, temperature and pressure. It's always the same. Just because you change the DNA of the container, you're not going to get the same reaction with different conditions. That is what I tried to explain about plants already before. Plants' productivity is always going to be in direct relation to the water consumption. No amount of genetic engineering is ever going to change this. Plants can adapt and be adapted to survive  in arid conditions. But they won't ever be productive in arid conditions..

 

And outside certain conditions, no reactions which belong to biological life can take place. Mars is such conditions. "life" in some kind of extremely adaptable and rapidly evolving bacteria-like form probably existed on Mars once, when the planet was younger, wetter, warmer and had an atmosphere. They didn't adapt to the slowly changing conditions, because it was simply not possible. And a bacteria-level life form is several gazillion times raised to the power of another gazillion more hardy and adaptable than an organism of human-level complexity.

 

And, an active and intelligent organism, like a human, need fast reactions on a massive scale, meaning hot conditions plus pressure plus electrolyte (water) plus lots of oxidizer.

 

**************

 

So I can't see your vision. What we hopefully and probably can do, is to make algae or plants that can survive in a Mars environment that has been locally engineered to mildly improved conditions. These plants can then both provide sustaining resources and help with long term modification of Mars.

 

The actual adaption to harsh space environments, is not something I see will be done with genetics or humans. It will be the domain of machines. Remember, God only created man for the purpose of inventing the machine .

 

I have to say I also see colonization of the Moon and Mars, in the short term, mainly as supportive actions for colonizing space and, for example, exploit the asteroid belt. In the long term, it's going to be luxury living for the filthy rich. Just like the Earth. Planetside, will be premium real estate one day in the far future. 

[Fast Jimmy]

First, just because we've mapped out the human genome, doesn't mean that we're within reach of being able to design and realize complex animals with desired, and vastly altered fundamental properties while retaining original form and function. Genetic engineering is ridiculously complex, and much of its fundamental mechanisms are certain to be unpredictable by their mathematical nature. We're no closer to be able to do that, than Leonardo da Vinci was able to travel to the Andromeda Galaxy, just because he had drawn a bird's wing.

Eh. I view it completely differently. Da Vinci was centuries out from imagining a flying machine before it was built because Medieval technological progress was slow. We went from muskets and cannons to nuclear bombs and warplanes in less than 50 years. Technology is evolving at an insanely rapid rate at this point. If society doesn't descend into chaos for one reason to another and this progress keeps up, we can no more imagine what will be possible 100 years from now than DA Vinci could imagine 500 years after his time.
 

Secondly, everything isn't possible. Ever. Biochemistry is not different from normal chemistry. Reactions, and the rate of the reactions, take place due to the conditions. Elements, catalysts, temperature and pressure. It's always the same. Just because you change the DNA of the container, you're not going to get the same reaction with different conditions. And outside certain conditions, no reactions which belong to biological life can take place. Mars is such conditions. "life" in some kind of extremely adaptable and rapidly evolving bacteria-like form probably existed on Mars once, when the planet was younger, wetter, warmer and had an atmosphere. They didn't adapt to the slowly changing conditions, because it was simply not possible. And a bacteria-level life form is several gazillion times raised to the power of another gazillion more hardy and adaptable than an organism of human-level complexity.

And, an active and intelligent organism, like a human, need fast reactions on a massive scale, meaning hot conditions plus pressure plus electrolyte (water) plus lots of oxidizer.

Developments in nano technology and other forms of infinitesimally precise levels of manipulation will make an entirely different world possible.

Why does no atmosphere matter on Mars? Because it makes things cold, we can't breathe air and the lack of pressure means the gas in our bodies wants to expand right out of our skins and kill us.

Why do we need to breathe? Oxygen, which is neccessary for the conversion of glucose into ATP molecules, used for energy. If, suddenly, we develop a means to break down carbon molecules without oxygen, suddenly we don't need air anymore. That solves two problems. And given that we have all sorts of life forms that can live in colder temperatures than Mars during the daytime, if we reverse engineer some some genes to produce proteins that mimic these behaviors and, bip-bam-boom, instant human Martian colonists.

I am making things sounds insanely simple not because they are, but because they COULD be, with the right understanding and technology.
 

So I can't see your vision. What we hopefully and probably can do, is to make algae or plants that can survive in a Mars environment that has been locally engineered to mildly improved conditions. These plants can then both provide sustaining resources and help with long term modification of Mars.
 
The actual adaption to harsh space environments, is not something I see will be done with genetics or humans. It will be the domain of machines. Remember, God only created man for the purpose of inventing the machine .

Heh. I agree wholeheartedly, but in my experience people aren't ready to have those conversations.
 

I have to say I also see colonization of the Moon and Mars, in the short term, mainly as supportive actions for colonizing space and, for example, exploit the asteroid belt. In the long term, it's going to be luxury living for the filthy rich. Just like the Earth. Planetside, will be premium real estate one day in the far future.

For sure. Anything is better than us, fifty years after landing on the moon, still getting excited when a rocket doesn't blow up when it leaves our atmosphere. We need to perfect low cost means of leaving orbit (such as the space elevator, etc.) first and foremost. The talk of terraforming and genetic engineering is far flung fantasies compared to the more real problematic issue at hand.

[bEVEsthda]

We need pressure, both because to keep the right biochemical conditions, and to keep a reasonable evaporation & boiling point.

We need temperature for the same chemical reasons.

We need oxygen because we need energy. The energy is derived from the *combustion* that produces carbon dioxide. What's your energy source?

 

You're talking about ridiculously major re-adaptions at a biochemical level. Essentially creating an entirely new non-Earthly life-form, which isn't even clearly imagined. And then you believe it will be possible to transform the human structure on top of this new "biological" foundation. Sorry, but I cannot believe in even a fraction of your vision.