200 réponses à ce sujet

[Ailith Tycane]

Please don't make assumptions to misrepresent where i'm coming from here. I'm not "complaining" about there being "too many LGB people". My issue is strictly concerning companion characters. There is nothing illogical about assuming that any given society does not consist of mostly LGB people. Of course in a fantasy universe with magic and dragons any thing is possible but still unlikely and I doubt the creators of this universe would support that theory. If that was their intention however, they need to grow a pair and say it as well as make it more apparent outside of companion LI.  Honestly I would like to see more miscellaneous LGBT npcs rather than being largely restricted to artificial, shoehorned companion LI quotas. Hell how about a  transgendered companion character/LI who isn't a joke? I'd like to see Bioware and friends  stop patting themselves on the back, congratulating themselves for being so progressive and inclusive and take further steps by making this not such an overwhelmingly Eurocentric(white) universe and giving some legitimate representation of the T in LGBT. How about it? Any takers? 

 

Compared to the rest of the gaming world, Bioware is extremely progressive, but I do get your overall point. 

 

Somewhat related, Bioware did include a transgender Tevinter magister in their comics and I thought that was handled very well and was good to see, but I wish there were more of that in gaming and the world in general. She was, however, also extremely white, so there is that. 

[ThomasBlaine]

Yeah you do. And it's relevant because when you whine it makes you seem oblivious to the huge advantages you have had in the past.

 

I'm not saying you can't be unhappy or dissapointed, but the level of entitlement in the complaining from a lot of male players that I have seen is pretty astronomical. It's why I can't blame people for feeling a bit smug when they were making fun of the men who were so upset that Sera is a lesbian love interest only. I don't think it's especially productive or kind, but I don't blame them because I understand the urge. It's satisfying deep down when a majority group doesn't get what they want for once and gets to see what it's like on the other side of the fence.

 

Bioware doesn't owe straight male gamers anything just like they don't owe gay gamers anything. If they include something in the game it's because they want to, and that includes lesbian, gay or straight love interests who are unavailable to some players. As David Gaider put it, "Thems the breaks" and that's really where the argument ends every time. Be upset, be dissapointed, just be a grown up about it. 

 

Ok, first off, the huge advantages and disadvantages men have had in the past aren't relevant to this discussion no matter how much any particular comment you see irritates you because of them.

 

Secondly, not every straight male gamer on the board enjoys being included in your sweeping generalizations and assumptions about how some or any of us do or do not feel about the way the people at Bioware dole out animated lasses, as opposed to the quality and particulars of those lasses as characters. Those generalizations and assumptions are actually hugely insulting.

 

Thirdly, you can't decide things like that based on hurriedly typed bickering on other topics entirely, and even if you could it wouldn't be any of your business.

[Little Princess Peach]

So far all we know is Cullen, Sera and Cassandra are confirmed LI, and Sera is ladies only. We don't know the sexualities of the other two.

 

I fully believe everyone will have options. Don't worry about it too much. 

I want Cullen to be male option only just to see the fan girls go into a net rage

[Ser Pounce A Lot_]

Yeah you do. And it's relevant because when you whine it makes you seem oblivious to the huge advantages you have had in the past.

 

 

 

Advantages? we're talking about romance options in a video game! BTW, How does having an opinion on what the design/romancing choices are make me entitled?

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 27 juin 2014 - 09:42 .
Removed inciteful comment

[Allan Schumacher]

I'm going to be usurping control of the thread here a bit because I have some questions....

 

 

How does having an opinion on what the design/romancing choices are make me entitled?

 

What do you think it means?

 

 

(note, I removed the last line of your post as it's unnecessary)

[ThomasBlaine]

I'm going to be usurping control of the thread here a bit because I have some questions....

 

 

 

What do you think it means?

 

 

(note, I removed the last line of your post as it's unnecessary)

 

Can you please clarify what it is you're asking?

 

Just so that when he tells you that there's a difference between stating an honest opinion and thinking that your opinion should have been considered and conformed to from the start because it's your opinion and whoever made the decision must be an idiot for not having consulted you before s/he tried to do anything by him/herself, the rest of us will know whether to supply his answer.

[Ser Pounce A Lot_]

I'm going to be usurping control of the thread here a bit because I have some questions....

 

 

 

What do you think it means?

 

 

(note, I removed the last line of your post as it's unnecessary)

 

Not sure what you're asking?  I means that I have an opinion? I'm not demanding Bioware change anything with the game, but it doesn't mean I can't express what characters appeal to me and what others don't.

 

I probably shouldn't have said that last statement, (the one you removed) but the poster in question got me a bit upset. Trying to spark gender-based arguments and making sweeping generalizations over harmless opinions.  

[BabyFratelli]

I want Cullen to be male option only just to see the fan girls go into a net rage

 

I can see a lot of "Oh well, I'll just play as a man!" and then also a lot of blood and tears and cancelled pre-orders.

 

As far as the rest of this goes:

 

*edits out first paragraph of this* Never mind that first part, Allan is assuming direct control. I'll put it back later.

 

However, regardless, and I want to reiterate this, chances are Bioware is going to do their best not to leave any players in the lurch. They're hardly going to ignore any large demographic. We all want more information on LIs, and we all want to be able to have options. Bitterly complaining and/or calling foul on the kind of information that's been released so far isn't going to make it come faster. Everyone will have options, and even with options there are external factors that may mean you don't have a romance. I'm a straight girl who didn't have one in Mass Effect, just because I didn't find my options personalities appealing in that way, and the game was still plenty fulfilling.

 

Fingers crossed for any kind of new information soon. 

[Allan Schumacher]

Not sure what you're asking?  I means that I have an opinion? I'm not demanding Bioware change anything with the game, but it doesn't mean I can't express what characters appeal to me and what others don't.

 

I probably shouldn't have said that last statement, (the one you removed) but the poster in question got me a bit upset. Trying to spark gender-based arguments and making sweeping generalizations over harmless opinions.  

 

More the aspect that you feel you're being accused of being entitled.  Why do you think someone feels you're arguing from an entitled position?

 

Yes you're upset.  I see several upset people in the thread though, and as such things are starting to escalate a bit.

 

 

I'll share my thoughts more about what I've observed and why things are where they are in this thread, but I'd prefer to not influence your answer.

[ThomasBlaine]

More the aspect that you feel you're being accused of being entitled.  Why do you think someone feels you're arguing from an entitled position?

 

Yes you're upset.  I see several upset people in the thread though, and as such things are starting to escalate a bit.

 

 

I'll share my thoughts more about what I've observed and why things are where they are in this thread, but I'd prefer to not influence your answer.

 

Can I get a say in? I'm arguing from the exact same position Pounce A Lot is, and I feel just as accused as he does.

[Jaqen21]

Compared to the rest of the gaming world, Bioware is extremely progressive, but I do get your overall point. 

 

Somewhat related, Bioware did include a transgender Tevinter magister in their comics and I thought that was handled very well and was good to see, but I wish there were more of that in gaming and the world in general. She was, however, also extremely white, so there is that. 

 

Well to their credit Bethesda included the Redguard class in the Elder Scrolls series all on their own. They didn't feel obligated to do it because some of their outspoken fans were constantly pressuring them on the internet about it.  Bioware has exhibited a degree of progressiveness as far as sexual diversity is considered in the Dragon Age series but that has pretty much been it. They actually took a step back as far as any sort of ethnic diversity is concerned. Hopefully with the inclusion of this Vivenne character this a sign that they are moving away from their Eurocentric approach to this series and she isn't just one shot token character. 

[Ser Pounce A Lot_]

 

More the aspect that you feel you're being accused of being entitled.  Why do you think someone feels you're arguing from an entitled position?

 

Yes you're upset.  I see several upset people in the thread though, and as such things are starting to escalate a bit.

 

 

I'll share my thoughts more about what I've observed and why things are where they are in this thread, but I'd prefer to not influence your answer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying you can't be unhappy or dissapointed, but the level of entitlement in the complaining from a lot of male players that I have seen is pretty astronomical. 

 

 

That's from the poster I was arguing with earlier. he/she claims male players are "entitled" because they don't find the romance choices and designs appealing.

[godModeAlpha]

More the aspect that you feel you're being accused of being entitled.  Why do you think someone feels you're arguing from an entitled position?
 
Yes you're upset.  I see several upset people in the thread though, and as such things are starting to escalate a bit.
 
 
I'll share my thoughts more about what I've observed and why things are where they are in this thread, but I'd prefer to not influence your answer.

I think this is why it's better to release the LI info early to give us enough time to make our peace should our hearts get broken (in fantasy land or not)

[Ailith Tycane]

That's from the poster I was arguing with earlier. he/she claims male players are "entitled" because they don't find the romance choices and designs appealing.

 

Actually I was just talking about the specific male responses that were homophobic and sexist in nature, of which there have been many, in this forum and others on the internet. You can be dissapointed, that's fine, I know what that's like, but you can't deny there has been a lot of entitlement issues especially regarding Sera's reveal as a lesbian only LI, and those entitled attitudes tend to always uniquely come from straight men. Take from that what you will. 

[ThomasBlaine]

Yeah you do. And it's relevant because when you whine it makes you seem oblivious to the huge advantages you have had in the past.

 

I'm not saying you can't be unhappy or dissapointed, but the level of entitlement in the complaining from a lot of male players that I have seen is pretty astronomical. It's why I can't blame people for feeling a bit smug when they were making fun of the men who were so upset that Sera is a lesbian love interest only. I don't think it's especially productive or kind, but I don't blame them because I understand the urge. It's satisfying deep down when a majority group doesn't get what they want for once and gets to see what it's like on the other side of the fence.

 

Bioware doesn't owe straight male gamers anything just like they don't owe gay gamers anything. If they include something in the game it's because they want to, and that includes lesbian, gay or straight love interests who are unavailable to some players. As David Gaider put it, "Thems the breaks" and that's really where the argument ends every time. Be upset, be dissapointed, just be a grown up about it. 

 

I see a whole lot of "you"s and infinitives in that post if wasn't supposed to be directed specifically at us and "straight male gamers" in general, and the statement isn't relevant to what was otherwise being discussed at the time.

[Ailith Tycane]

I see a whole lot of "you"s and infinitives in that post if wasn't supposed to be directed specifically at us and "straight male gamers" in general, and the statement isn't relevant to what was being discussed at the time.

 

Yeah, my original point still stands and I will not waste my time sitting here letting you derail my original statement simply because I didn't bother to say "not all men."

 

There is a problem with male entitlement among A LOT of male gamers, and there were a lot of sexist and homophobic comments made by SOME men on the forums when they found out she wasn't romanceable. If that bothers you then maybe your annoyance should be placed at the feet of said men instead of me for pointing out the obvious. 

[Neon Rising Winter]

Sometimes being a straight male on here is bad. If you disagree with a women or gay on here your the bad guy.Your cant be gutted about the romances so shut up and deal with it.

 

Well in the context of this particular discussion it's obvious they can be gutted and have indeed been expressing that opinion. And why shouldn't they.

 

Of course this doesn't mean other people won't point out that they've been putting up with far worse for far longer and so cannot quite manage to summon an ocean of sympathy. I'll admit this can be pointed out less than tactfully sometimes, but hopefully they can see past that and use it to better understand the situation their fellow gamers have been tolerating for years.

[ThomasBlaine]

Yeah, my original point still stands and I will not waste my time sitting here letting you derail my original statement simply because I didn't bother to say "not all men."

 

There is a problem with male entitlement among A LOT of male gamers, and there were a lot of sexist and homophobic comments made by SOME men on the forums when they found out she wasn't romanceable. If that bothers you then maybe your annoyance should be placed at the feet of said men instead of me for pointing out the obvious. 

 

Your original point was that "us" male gamers shouldn't "whine" because you think it makes "us" sound ungrateful for unspecified advantages, none of which has anything at all to do with the topic of the thread, much less is any of your business.

 

Neither did your ensuing rant, addressed to us but apparently not about us, instead apparently about unspecified posters who weren't present for said rant supposedly getting the short end of the romantic stick for once and how it'd be childish but not entirely unfair for female gamers to feel vindictive over that, concluding in a direct order for us in particular this time to be "grown up" about our disappointment and sadness.

 

Forgive me for being confused and taking offense.

[Jaqen21]

 I'm surprised to hear that some people were upset about this Sera character being a lesbian only romance option. I'd imagine these people would be relieved if anything considering she isn't particularly attractive and quite frankly looks like a blonde 15 year old Justin Bieber with too much eye liner . Of course that's just my opinion and is entirely subjective. 

[ThomasBlaine]

Well in the context of this particular discussion it's obvious they can be gutted and have indeed been expressing that opinion. And why shouldn't they.

 

Of course this doesn't mean other people won't point out that they've been putting up with far worse for far longer and so cannot quite manage to summon an ocean of sympathy. I'll admit this can be pointed out less than tactfully sometimes, but hopefully they can see past that and use it to better understand the situation their fellow gamers have been tolerating for years.

 

For Christ's sake, nobody is gutted and this was never supposed to be a pity-fest. We were discussing and exchanging our feelings about each potential LI for males before someone assumed that we must all be incredibly broken up about it and started theorizing about why, and then the complaints that we had no right to "whine" started, and now we're here, rather tiffed that people are calling us sexists and racists and ungrateful, self-entitled players and complaining about "straight male gamers" to our faces and then denying that it has anything to do with us personally when we were just trying to share our first impressions on the bloody romantic interests in a video game.

[Neon Rising Winter]

For Christ's sake, nobody is gutted and this was never supposed to be a pity-fest. We were discussing and exchanging our feelings about each potential LI for males before someone assumed that we must all be incredibly broken up about it and started theorizing about why, and then the complaints that we had no right to "whine" started, and now we're here, rather tiffed that people are calling us sexists and racists and ungrateful, self-entitled players and complaining about "straight male gamers" to our faces when we were just trying to share our first impressions on the bloody romantic interests.

I was using the language of the poster I responded to, why are you bugging me about how they choose to complain!

[Tiuwaz]

One gets the feeling that several people are gleefully happy that straight guys aren't happy with their romance options. Same-sex romances make for interesting addition but you shouldnt be blind to the fact that the main demographic for Dragon age are straight male gamers. there are probably 10% gay gamers and 15% straight female and the rest straight male. and I think I am being generous here

 

Sera being female only romance wouldnt be a problem if there was a similar character for a m/f romance, but there isnt. It also doesnt help that Sera is the best looking female by far (perhaps not for all but for the appearent majority)

 

m/f options are atm downright bad or meh

 

cassandra: she isnt that bad, I liked her in DA2, what little we saw but that jaw ><. I swear they tried to make her look as manly as possible and simply put feminine eyes/eybrows on her. its damn jarring. she is also heavily driven by duty so I expect no lovey-dovey relationship there.

 

vivienne: characterwise seems off putting, ridiciulous outfit, and unattractive face (yes subjective but it seems to be shared among many others), also no lovey-dovey relationship with her character

 

scribbles: too little is known but similar looks to vivienne so meh also not a companion so you cant take along with you

 

 

 

lovey-dovey relationship: a merril or leliana type of character

 

I think thats the main gripe, we dont have a character to romance thats similar leliann or merril in the previous games. Sera seemed the only one to fit that bill. So once it was disclosed that she was f/f only it was obvious that there would be anger.

[Battlebloodmage]

 I'm surprised to hear that some people were upset about this Sera character being a lesbian only romance option. I'd imagine these people would be relieved if anything considering she isn't particularly attractive and quite frankly looks like a blonde 15 year old Justin Bieber with too much eye liner . Of course that's just my opinion and is entirely subjective. 

I'm assuming it could be that they don't think they would like it until the option was taken away like not playing your toy car but want to play with it once your parents decide to give it away or it's simply that the people who satisfied with her being a lesbian wouldn't complain, so only those who care about Sera being a lesbian raise an issue. That's why you can't satisfy everyone. Bioware just has to do the best they can. I'm pretty sure the same thing would happen if Cassandra were revealed to be a lesbian instead. 

[Ailith Tycane]

Your offense is misplaced, as I said before. If you were not one of those people who were saying sexist or homophobic things then those comments were not made for or directed at you personally, they were directed at the men who were. Which also happens to be where your anger should be placed, not at the women or gay people who point out that straight male gamers always tend to get more content than we do, and the ONE time we get a specific lesbian love interest is not a great loss or tragedy for straight male gamers. 

 

If you don't want people to "generalize" then you should come down harder on the men on these forums who are, in fact, homophobic, sexist and racist. 

 

 

Same-sex romances make for interesting addition but you shouldnt be blind to the fact that the main demographic for Dragon age are straight male gamers.

 

No it's not.

 

"The romances in the game are not for “the straight male gamer”. They’re for everyone. We have a lot of fans, many of whom are neither straight nor male, and they deserve no less attention. We have good numbers, after all, on the number of people who actually used similar sorts of content in DAO and thus don’t need to resort to anecdotal evidence to support our idea that their numbers are not insignificant… and that’s ignoring the idea that they don’t have just as much right to play the kind of game they wish as anyone else. The “rights” of anyone with regards to a game are murky at best, but anyone who takes that stance must apply it equally to both the minority as well as the majority. The majority has no inherent “right” to get more options than anyone else."