13 replies to this topic

[RedCaesar97]

Okay, I am creating this topic because of a personal message to me asking about Pistols with Master Marksman versus Assault Rifles, naming, which is more damaging?

 

The Grey Ranger posted the weapon damage formula here.

 

But for those who do not want to bother with the math, basically, a Pistol with Master Marksman deals more damage per second (DPS) than an equal assault rifle.

 

But what does that mean in practical terms? I decided to find out.

 

I came up with a some fairly simple tests to determine it visually. 

 

Basic Parameters:

• Soldier class with Commando specialization (reduces recharge time on Marksman by 25%).
• Spectre X weapons: HMWA X (Assault Rifle) and HMWP X (Pistol)
• Same mods on each gun
• One Thresher Maw
• Record how long it takes to kill the Thresher Maw on foot using only the Pistol/Assault Rifle, from first shot to last shot.

 

Test 1 (Video).

Mods: Frictionless Materials X and Combat Scanner X

 

Assault Rifle: 58 seconds

Pistol with Master Marksman: 51 seconds

 

 

Test 2 (Video).

Mods: Two Rail Extension VIIs (+58% damage, -40% heat absorption)

 

Assault Rifle: 56 seconds, with 4 pauses

Pistol with Master Marksman: 62 seconds to kill the Thresher Maw, with 9 pauses and 1 overheat

 

 

Test 3 (Video).

Mods: One Rail Extension VII (+29% damage, -20% heat absorption) and one Frictionless Materials X (+7% Damage, +28% Heat Damping) on each gun.

 

Assault Rifle: 53 seconds

Pistol with Master Marksman: 44 seconds

 

 

Test 4 (Video).

Mods: Two Scram Rail Xs on each gun (+52% damage, -20% heat absorption).

 

Assault Rifle: 59 seconds, with 3 pauses and one overheat.

Pistol with Master Marksman: 52 seconds, with 5 pauses

 

 

 

I was also asked about comparisons with the other weapons, but I do not have the time, the desire, or even the Shepards available for any proper tests other than the theoretical math.

 

Also, all tests were recorded on Xbox 360. I do not have a PC version. The PC version would obviously be superior for these tests. If someone with a PC version of Mass Effect wants to take a crack at it, be my guest.

[RedCaesar97]

I want to post some of my own initial impressions about these tests.

 

In regards to my first test, the Pistol with Master Marksman did out-damage the Assault Rifle. However, I feel like I should call out a few things:

 

1) I had to activate Marksman twice to keep up the damage. 

 

2) With enough cooldown and duration bonuses, you can keep Marksman up almost permanently, but ...

 

3) ... The only classes I think can keep Marksman up constantly are the Soldier (Commando, Shock Trooper), Infiltrator (Commando), and Vanguard (Shock Trooper).

Commando gives a cooldown bonus to Marksman. Shock Trooper gives a cooldown bonus to Adrenaline Burst which can reset your cooldown.

 

So Adept, Engineer, and Sentinel (which can get only Basic Marksman) cannot keep up Marksman constantly. 

 

4) The difference in time was only really noticeable on an enemy with a lot of health and possibly shields. Against more basic enemies with less health and shields, you probably will not notice the difference in damage.

 

 

It also strikes me that it can take a while before you have enough bonuses to keep Marksman up constantly (cooldown armor mods, 12 points into pistols, 12 points into passive, possibly 12 points into Assault Training for max cooldown on Adrenaline Burst). During that time, the Assault Rifle can probably deal more damage over time than the Pistol. 

 

Also of note, Assault Rifles kind of suck until level IV, once they actually start getting some accuracy; from levels I to III, they have an accuracy of 1 so good luck actually hitting anything with them. Pistols are the better choice until you start getting those better assault rifles.

[KrrKs]

Nice test, I thought the difference would be larger.

 

3) ... The only classes I think can keep Marksman up constantly are the Soldier (Commando, Shock Trooper), Infiltrator (Commando), and Vanguard (Shock Trooper).

Commando gives a cooldown bonus to Marksman. Shock Trooper gives a cooldown bonus to Adrenaline Burst which can reset your cooldown.

The same classes could also keep Overkill up, and run an AR with something like double-extended rails.
 (Infil and vanguard would need the bonus though...)

[The Grey Ranger]

The other classes can get the cool down on master marksman to around 26-27 seconds, the duration is 21 seconds. So you're looking at around 5-6 seconds of cooldown for an adept, or an engineer.  I usually find myself reusing some other power such as lift, singularity, sabotage or overload during the cooldown.  Note that is using 2 exoskeleton x's for your armor mods, but for an adept or engineer why wouldn't you?

[The Grey Ranger]

Also note if you have a preference in styles the actual difference is not really all that much.  Just out of curiosity what mods and ammo types were you running in the guns.  That makes a bigger difference in the pistol than in the assault rifle since the rof increase from marksman will gain damage bonus from those.

[The Grey Ranger]

Also note if you have a preference in styles the actual difference is not really all that much.  Just out of curiosity what mods and ammo types were you running in the guns.  That makes a bigger difference in the pistol than in the assault rifle since the rof increase from marksman will gain damage bonus from those.

 

Never mind I missed in the the first post.

[capn233]

Interesting.  The AR has better stat dps outside of the skill and should be making up a little ground there.

 

Couldn't you run dual Scram X (+52%dmg, -20%heat abs) without overheating in a MM duration?  It would give you a higher total damage bonus than Rail VII and Frictionless X... might make the difference a little better in the direction of the pistol.  I don't remember if you have to avoid a couple shots or not.

 

Anyway I think part of it is that the Spectre AR is a lot better than what you can get from any other manufacturer, especially in the Accuracy department.  Against most targets I am not sure other AR's would compare as favorably.  Maybe it doesn't matter since real early game you probably don't have Advanced or higher Marksman, but you wouldn't have a good setup for Overkill anyway.

[The Grey Ranger]

It's been a while, but if my memory serves, with dual scram rails, you'll overheat the pistol before the duration ends, unless you're playing an infiltrator for the extra cool down bonus. 

 

As far as weapons go the spectre AR is better than the others, the only ones that come close are the Kovalyav and the Breaker lines.  plus a couple that can only be accessed via console command. 

 

In some ways I like AR's and I've done several builds that use them.  One that was kind of fun was dual scrams and high explosive ammo.  You can fire some reasonable bursts by using overkill. 

[RedCaesar97]

Test 2 (Video).

Mods: Two Rail Extension VIIs (+58% damage, -40% heat absorption)

 

Assault Rifle: 56 seconds, with 4 pauses

Pistol with Master Marksman: 62 seconds to kill the Thresher Maw, with 9 pauses and 1 overheat (D'oh!)

 

 

I used Overkill with the Assault Rifle with this test. Worked great.

Now if I was on PC (so I could hotkey more than one power and see the individual cooldowns) and had Shock Trooper instead of Commando for the Adrenaline Burst cooldown bonus, I would probably have ended up pausing less with the Assault Rifle. I just cannot recall if I have a Shepard like that or not. I would have to check.

[RedCaesar97]

The other classes can get the cool down on master marksman to around 26-27 seconds, the duration is 21 seconds. So you're looking at around 5-6 seconds of cooldown for an adept, or an engineer.  I usually find myself reusing some other power such as lift, singularity, sabotage or overload during the cooldown.  Note that is using 2 exoskeleton x's for your armor mods, but for an adept or engineer why wouldn't you?

 

Very true. and it is very hard to argue against running double Medical Exoskeletons on all classes. At least that is what I usually end up doing. Probably not the most optimal way to play, but by the end of the game it hardly matters.

[RedCaesar97]

It's been a while, but if my memory serves, with dual scram rails, you'll overheat the pistol before the duration ends, unless you're playing an infiltrator for the extra cool down bonus.

That is what I noticed. I ran with both dual Rail Extension VIIs and dual Sram Rail Xs and you end up having to pause a lot with the pistol. Overkill on the Assault Rifle can nullify the heat though.
 

In some ways I like AR's and I've done several builds that use them.  One that was kind of fun was dual scrams and high explosive ammo.  You can fire some reasonable bursts by using overkill.

I tried that a couple of times, but I find the explosive ammo fails to explode, or at least that is what it seemed to me. It explodes quite nicely with shotguns and sniper rifles though but then you are left waiting for it to cool down.

[The Grey Ranger]

Yeah by the time you hit the end game pretty much any Shep is a human wrecking ball and could probably get away with using the starting AR or Pistol.  I may have to actually try that sometime, just as an interesting playthrough (no upgraded gear) Just to see how hard it would be.

[RedCaesar97]

Last two tests. 

 

 

Test 3 (Video).

Mods: One Rail Extension VII (+29% damage, -20% heat absorption) and one Frictionless Materials X (+7% Damage, +28% Heat Damping) on each gun.

 

Not much different than first test except for shorter times.

 

Assault Rifle: 53 seconds

Pistol with Master Marksman: 44 seconds

 

 

Test 4 (Video).

Mods: Two Scram Rail Xs on each gun (+52% damage, -20% heat absorption).

 

Not much different than the second test except Pistol was better here, probably because I overheated the assault rifle once.

 

Assault Rifle: 59 seconds, with 3 pauses and one overheat.

Pistol with Master Marksman: 52 seconds, with 5 pauses

[capn233]

Yeah by the time you hit the end game pretty much any Shep is a human wrecking ball and could probably get away with using the starting AR or Pistol.  I may have to actually try that sometime, just as an interesting playthrough (no upgraded gear) Just to see how hard it would be.

 

It isn't quite the same thing, but in my last game I was stuck with Onyx IV light nearly the whole time because I only wanted to run Onyx and it didn't drop any until right before Virmire (IX).  I guess I could have tried tricks to get it, but I didn't care enough.

 

The thing I hate most about the early game guns isn't the heat or the damage, it is that the accuracy (especially on ARs) is horrendous.