173 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Redcliffe once again was a result of oppression of mages...

 

Not completely. That was part of Isolde's decision to have Connor trained in secret. There were also political motivations on Loghain's part to poison Eamon by sending a blood mage to do so, and based on Isolde's line "I trusted Loghain, why wouldn't I," Loghain knew Connor was a mage and offered a tutor. There was also the fact that Isolde sent all the knights away to find the urn so Redcliff was more or less defenseless, Connor grew desperate to help his father, and was trained by an incompetent. 

 

Redcliff is such a complicated area with so many different variable that removing any one of them may have prevented it from happening. 

[CapivaRasgor]

The templars are unnecessary. If you educate the mages like any other citizen and don't take away their nationality, family and identity they'll remain loyal to the country and will even be the ones to seek and detain wanted blood mages. It also seems as if magic is completely left out of mundane tasks.

If in addition to that you grant the magicians and their family something akin to nobility it won't be seen as punishment but a boon.

Open clinics were healers can provide care to everyone, allow mages to enlist into the army corpse, etc.

I don't know who came up with the circle and templar system currently in place but he or she must have been retarded.

Well.. no.

You are assuming that all mages would be benevolent and that not one of them, or their families, would abuse this boon you propose. And the abuses magic allows make abuse like we know it look like childs play..

However I agree that the current system is not effective, the current crisis being a very strong evidence of such.. had I to elabprate a new system it would involve the following:

-Mages would be allowed more personal freedoms, but not have rights to hold goverment titles.
-The population would be reeducated into being less prejudiced against the common mage, but still weary of how dangerous an evil mage can be.
-Mages CAN'T live among mundanes.. for their mutual safety. There is always the chance of the mage being mobbed by ignorant peasants or of the people being massacred by the eventual abomination... nothing is to stop them from seeing their families though.
-There IS the need of a body of non mages trained for the purpose of safeguarding the common people against magical abuses. If we let the mages watch themselves there is no guarantee that they will keep the safety of non mages over their own at all times. Templars ARE needed.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Well.. no.

You are assuming that all mages would be benevolent and that not one of them, or their families, would abuse this boon you propose. And the abuses magic allows make abuse like we know it look like childs play..

However I agree that the current system is not effective, the current crisis being a very strong evidence of such.. had I to elabprate a new system it would involve the following:

-Mages would be allowed more personal freedoms, but not have rights to hold goverment titles.
-The population would be reeducated into being less prejudiced against the common mage, but still weary of how dangerous an evil mage can be.
-Mages CAN'T live among mundanes.. for their mutual safety. There is always the chance of the mage being mobbed by ignorant peasants or of the people being massacred by the eventual abomination... nothing is to stop them from seeing their families though.
-There IS the need of a body of non mages trained for the purpose of safeguarding the common people against magical abuses. If we let the mages watch themselves there is no guarantee that they will keep the safety of non mages over their own at all times. Templars ARE needed.

It is terrible thing to do even with current freedoom mages were shown bring nothing more than disasters.Problems are not because mages don't have enough freedom it is i would say opposite current restrictions and methods can't stop damage mages are doing... simple circle is too lax and is still ineffective in controling mages.For me there is no system that can control mages and ensure safety because of control of danger closest thing to reach that are qunari but still shown in da redemption that they didn't reach that goal despitve most restrictive system...  it is not freedom issue it is safety issue.

 

And how the hell you will make peoples don't hate mages even if that they cause constant damage and are danger for entire population.If you will tell them the truth that they are dangerous they will fear them what i sane reaction and then it will lead to hate... and even if you don't tell them that they will pretty much figure that quickly when next mage will start blew up things causing another disaster intentionally or not.

 

When we sum up all those disasters mages thrown into population well you can pretty much see that they have good reason for that not just we are prejudiced...   

[Schreckstoff]

Well.. no.

You are assuming that all mages would be benevolent and that not one of them, or their families, would abuse this boon you propose. And the abuses magic allows make abuse like we know it look like childs play..

However I agree that the current system is not effective, the current crisis being a very strong evidence of such.. had I to elabprate a new system it would involve the following:

-Mages would be allowed more personal freedoms, but not have rights to hold goverment titles.
-The population would be reeducated into being less prejudiced against the common mage, but still weary of how dangerous an evil mage can be.
-Mages CAN'T live among mundanes.. for their mutual safety. There is always the chance of the mage being mobbed by ignorant peasants or of the people being massacred by the eventual abomination... nothing is to stop them from seeing their families though.
-There IS the need of a body of non mages trained for the purpose of safeguarding the common people against magical abuses. If we let the mages watch themselves there is no guarantee that they will keep the safety of non mages over their own at all times. Templars ARE needed.

I'm  not assuming every mage would follow the rules, I'm assuming the majority of mages will follow them and will hunt down those that don't. The boon I proposed was akin to nobility not equal. If a mage sees his family provided for (financially) because of him following the rules he is much less likely to break them. 

[CapivaRasgor]

I'm not assuming every mage would follow the rules, I'm assuming the majority of mages will follow them and will hunt down those that don't. The boon I proposed was akin to nobility not equal. If a mage sees his family provided for (financially) because of him following the rules he is much less likely to break them.

In this case, I'm inclined to agree with the idea of this boon. I still think however that there needs to be a force of non mages trained to respond to magical threats.

[Panda]

I think mages deserve less strict treatment and they should be almost entirely free, just with mandatory schooling and graduating system which is more free and less abusive than current Circle system.

 

They are humans and should have same human rights as everyone has. Like Zevran mentioned in the game, even children lauched at high speed are dangerous ^^; Most of mages aren't evil or even that dangerous, only time when they turn to demons and forbidden magic is when their life is threatened or they have been cornered.

 

Mages have deep connection to fade which makes them vulnerable to demons and nightmares. Also if they don't learn how to properly use spells there will be many unfortunate- sometimes lethal- accidents. Because of this mages need mandatory schooling.

 

Templars are important since some mages will be criminals and normal guards can't handle them. This is why templars should form special police force. They should also guard mage schools but as security guards not jailors.

 

If this could be accomplishes mages would still be watched and they would be stopped if they are trying to take over. However mages would also have rather normal lives compared to other folks and they wouldn't feel like they have this curse that makes them dangerous monsters. They wouldn't be abused either.

[OctagonalSquare]

First of all, secularize the Circle of Magi and the Templar Order.

 

The Circles should be more like academies and boarding schools. Mage children are taken to the Circle educated. Their families may visit. Once they reach adulthood, complete their studies, and pass their Harrowing, they are allowed to live outside the Circle.

 

"Oh, but we can't let mages roam free! They could blow something up!" Then station Templars throughout towns and cities. If a mage gets out of hand, there will be Templars around to stop them.

 

"What about blood magic?" The Kirkwall mages turned to blood magic out of fear of Meredith and her Templars. There won't be fear of Templars in this situation. Inform mage students about the dangers of blood magic -- how it corrupts you, how it makes you more vulnerable to possession, how it weakens the Veil -- and they won't turn to it because they'll know it's dangerous and there won't be anything pushing them to use it.

[General TSAR]

First of all, secularize the Circle of Magi and the Templar Order.

Screw that.  

[Asdrubael Vect]

Destroy Orlais Chantry and their Templar Order what is the sourse of 90% mages and non-humans problems in Thedas

 

the mages should have all rights like non-mages but they must learn magic via trainers, mages parents or if they do not have anything so they would be send to Cirles what would be schools who will train them and they would serve-work for the country as soldiers/knights, healers, arhitects-builders, smiths/enchanters, scientists...and yeah they would have noble titles if they deserve them and they can become rulers of country

 

Let all mages learn magic and all other knoledges(geograthy,history, alchemy and others) and things(fight with swords, smithing and others) like Tevinter, Nevarran, Dalish, Barbarians have...support them more to become artisans, scientists and healers if they are good in this

 

Gifted mages who decided to have harrowing would have a rights to learn blood magic(dalish style) and all other "evil" types of magic without any cencorship and they would be raised to really hate, never trust and fight with deamons and dragon/deamon worchipers and Qun..so they would create Inquision..."Ordo Malleus"

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Dalish aren't fans of blood magic.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Dalish aren't fans of blood magic.

they-Keepers are not kill peoples and use only their blood in elven magic rituals

[Jedi Master of Orion]

According to who?

[TheKomandorShepard]

From what i know we saw only 2 dalish blood mages in games.

1.Zathrian and we don't know that his clan knew about that it seems they didn't knew about curse.

2.Merril that was exiled because of this or perhaps because deal with demon but for me it was more like keeper affected her clan to turn away merril from that path.

 

So who knows... for me they may be neutral about that.

[StrangeStrategy]

Yes but with proper policy we can do that again and isntead send them to the circle and waste resources a quarter-successful system and watch them what is proven that can't stop destruction and damage they are causing anyway we can kill them on the spot.

 

What you described is pretty much same what current system (well not current now) would be in ideal world current system was your system after facing reality...

 

Not mention that you can't force someone to respect and trust someone especially if they don't deserve respect and trust and prove constantly that they can't be trusted.

 

You can't use the actions of a few mages to condemn them all. Some mages go bad. Some mages are good. Without mages, the Qunari would take all of Thedas. As Divine Justinia said, "We cannot hail them when their magic is useful and then lock them in a cage when it is inconvenient." Killing mages on sight causes these consquences:

- Every mage will be hostile, fighting for their survival. Whether they are good mages or bad, nobody wants to lie down and die for being innocent.
- When the Qunari invade, nothing can stop them. The mages were the only thing that could outmatch the Qunari last time.

- Mages will continue to be born, and there will be more apostates then ever.

 

That doesn't solve the problem at all, you're not dealing with what is truly causing the problems; lack of education and poor treatment causing good mages to go bad. Mages need to be controlled, and Templars must always exist, because magic always will.

[Gearwarden]

How i feel about the situation with the Mage Templar war.

 

[StrangeStrategy]

Destroy Orlais Chantry and their Templar Order what is the sourse of 90% mages and non-humans problems in Thedas

 

the mages should have all rights like non-mages but they must learn magic via trainers, mages parents or if they do not have anything so they would be send to Cirles what would be schools who will train them and they would serve-work for the country as soldiers/knights, healers, arhitects-builders, smiths/enchanters, scientists...and yeah they would have noble titles if they deserve them and they can become rulers of country

 

Let all mages learn magic and all other knoledges(geograthy,history, alchemy and others) and things(fight with swords, smithing and others) like Tevinter, Nevarran, Dalish, Barbarians have...support them more to become artisans, scientists and healers if they are good in this

 

Gifted mages who decided to have harrowing would have a rights to learn blood magic(dalish style) and all other "evil" types of magic without any cencorship and they would be raised to really hate, never trust and fight with deamons and dragon/deamon worchipers and Qun..so they would create Inquision..."Ordo Malleus"

 

I uh, uhhh... WAT!? Without the Templars or Chantry, there is nothing to stop bad mages. Blood mages are stronger than normal good mages, which means good mages would need to resort to dark magic to match them. Nothing could stand against a mage who wanted power.

Not to mention, without Templars or Chantry the masses are uneducated. They will hate and fear the mages, witch burnings and all that which will lead to mages defending themselves from peasants, killing them.

You really should read up on Tevinter. Tevinter is full of corrupt evil mages who use their gift to take power. Its reversed there; the mages hold power, the mundanes do not. But even Tevinter has a Chantry and Templars, because someone needs to stop rogue mages.

Look, I love discussion and this topic but you've got to explain why you think something is a good idea, not just state an idea!

[Divine Justinia V]

Love them.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You can't use the actions of a few mages to condemn them all. Some mages go bad. Some mages are good. Without mages, the Qunari would take all of Thedas. As Divine Justinia said, "We cannot hail them when their magic is useful and then lock them in a cage when it is inconvenient." Killing mages on sight causes these consquences:

- Every mage will be hostile, fighting for their survival. Whether they are good mages or bad, nobody wants to lie down and die for being innocent.
- When the Qunari invade, nothing can stop them. The mages were the only thing that could outmatch the Qunari last time.

- Mages will continue to be born, and there will be more apostates then ever.

 

That doesn't solve the problem at all, you're not dealing with what is truly causing the problems; lack of education and poor treatment causing good mages to go bad. Mages need to be controlled, and Templars must always exist, because magic always will.

Of course i can but now it isn't in case in fact i use actions of majority. Good or evil it doesn't have rly significance it is just morality demon won't care and won't see you as good or evil just as host.Pretty much even then "good" mage can cause as much damage not intentionally as "evil" mage intentionally.And to that point we have very very little cases we can qualify mage as "good" and colosal number that i would put as bad.

 

Divine was naive as hell pretty much we can thank her for current mess and mage-templar war that she caused not just by her lack of action (elthina v2 she was even compared to her in ME) but also stupid actions like freeing mages when war was over before it started.Not mention pretty much for entire series i only heard how mages are useful and to that point only thing i saw they were doing is causing destruction around or creating some kind of mess that we need to clean after them.Well wait only once time one mage was proved to be useful Anders and his clinic and guy later started battle in kirkwall and blow up entire building.

 

To be honest without mages and constant damage and destruction they cause Thedas would be in much better shape and technologically advanced.Simple blight are huge punch for thedas and they cause even more trouble.Mages could be easily replaced by technology in almost every matter besides short-term treatment and technology is more stable and safer than unstable mages.

 

And oh you mean like they are doing now?

As i said without mages thedas develops better technology and don't suffer constant damage caused by mages.

Yep and we can kill them instead taking to the circle as i said i have certain methods to deal with that but i explained that few times and now im not in mood to do that.

[Beliar86]

They should put all efforts into mass producing the litany of adralla and distribute them. Mages still compulsed to go to the circle, but have family visitation days. Once harrowing is passed, free to leave the circle or stay as a teacher, with all rights restored, including family, ability to have titles, etc.Templars keep phylacteries indefinitely.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

From what i know we saw only 2 dalish blood mages in games.

1.Zathrian and we don't know that his clan knew about that it seems they didn't knew about curse.

2.Merril that was exiled because of this or perhaps because deal with demon but for me it was more like keeper affected her clan to turn away merril from that path.

 

So who knows... for me they may be neutral about that.

 

Marethari tells Merrill that "the mirror lead you to blood magic" like it was an inherently bad thing. And Hahren Paivel describes Tevinter as "a powerful empire built on the darkest magic."

[Tevinter Rose]

Abolish all mages and create a magocracy. Reeducate the Qun. Actually, expand the Tevinter Imperium. They're back!

agreed!

[Schreckstoff]

I uh, uhhh... WAT!? Without the Templars or Chantry, there is nothing to stop bad mages. Blood mages are stronger than normal good mages, which means good mages would need to resort to dark magic to match them. Nothing could stand against a mage who wanted power.

 

1 Bloodmage can match multiple mages but there are more mages who don't resort to blood magic than those who do. Templars can continue to exist but not to control the mages at best they should be observants.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Marethari tells Merrill that "the mirror lead you to blood magic" like it was an inherently bad thing. And Hahren Paivel describes Tevinter as "a powerful empire built on the darkest magic."

Possible especially after devs changed blood magic status from grey to black.As far i saw only 1 clan that had opinion about that or at least expressed one.

[Oohforf]

• Under the autonomous control of which ever government present in which ever country
• General conditions in the towers are to be improved 1000 fold (no more open toilets, more private bedding quarters)
• Mage representatives and such are present at all courts
• The Chantry has no active hand in the affairs and politics in the "New Chantry"
• People are under obligation to send their children to the circle at the age of six or face a tax placed upon them for harbouring a potentially dangerous mage who isn't going to be able to control themselves. People are provided a stipend for sending their kids (depending on their social class and their location - for instance, a farmer is going to be paid more due to the loss of a farmhand, opposed to a noble family of Rialto) 
• Parents are allowed with withdraw their mages from the Circle at any time, but face the tax placed upon them still until they are 18
• Phylacteries are still allowed
• Logs of all mages born are allowed
• Mages are allowed to leave their towers at the age of 18, or they can stay and continue to educate themselves and rise in rank.
• The Harrowing is replaced with a real-world replication, where there is no chance of a person being possessed and killed by the templars 
• Allowed to receive training at arms
• A variety of paths are provided - healers (mages can open their own private firms if they wish once they leave), mercenary companies, etc.

 

• Templars generally to be enrolled as students from the age of six - parents who enrolled them are paid a stipend as well (to encourage people to enrol them)
• Grow up along side mages, learn to be their guardians alongside friends
• As of present, Templars who treat mages honourably will be recognized as teachers for these new templars
• Do not receive a Chantry education
• Templars are allowed to enrol at older age, but they must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they will treat a mage with humanity.

 

• Parents are able to visit their children whenever they please, able to send gifts, etc.
• All children go on "summer break" whenever that occurs for a period of time
• Other breaks through out the year
• Any children born in the Circle are to either be placed with the family or to be raised in the Circle nursery either as a templar or a mage (depending if they are a templar or mage)

 

• Magical "companies" are officially set up in all circles,
• Continue their enchanting, have a monopoly and forging specialized weapons and staves
• Smiths are openly allowed to forge deals with Magical companies
• Specialized magical gemcutting 
• Lucrative moniez in general

[StrangeStrategy]

Of course i can but now it isn't in case in fact i use actions of majority. Good or evil it doesn't have rly significance it is just morality demon won't care and won't see you as good or evil just as host.Pretty much even then "good" mage can cause as much damage not intentionally as "evil" mage intentionally.And to that point we have very very little cases we can qualify mage as "good" and colosal number that i would put as bad.

 

Divine was naive as hell pretty much we can thank her for current mess and mage-templar war that she caused not just by her lack of action (elthina v2 she was even compared to her in ME) but also stupid actions like freeing mages when war was over before it started.Not mention pretty much for entire series i only heard how mages are useful and to that point only thing i saw they were doing is causing destruction around or creating some kind of mess that we need to clean after them.Well wait only once time one mage was proved to be useful Anders and his clinic and guy later started battle in kirkwall and blow up entire building.

 

To be honest without mages and constant damage and destruction they cause Thedas would be in much better shape and technologically advanced.Simple blight are huge punch for thedas and they cause even more trouble.Mages could be easily replaced by technology in almost every matter besides short-term treatment and technology is more stable and safer than unstable mages.

 

And oh you mean like they are doing now?

As i said without mages thedas develops better technology and don't suffer constant damage caused by mages.

Yep and we can kill them instead taking to the circle as i said i have certain methods to deal with that but i explained that few times and now im not in mood to do that.

 

You don't rise to power and become as powerful as the Divine being naïve. Lord-Seeker Lambert and Fiona/Adrian caused the war, the Divine wanted peace. Sure, the world might be better off without magic but its a fact that it exists, and always will. You can kill every mage and have the war go on forever, and every time a mage is found there is slaughter (not just of the mage) and that will continue forever. Peace needs to be the final solution, not "kill every mage you find"

 

Also, I'm not so concerned about demonic possessions anymore. As we've seen, the veil has torn and demons are pouring in anyways, they have no need for a host now.

 

As Wynne said, Mages have always been pivotal in the battle against the Darkspawn. They are superior to Qunari technology. For every man a mage kills, some mage is healing or teaching somewhere else.

 

And if you don't want to fully explain yourself, atleast answer this; Why kill all of them? That solves nothing, other than forcing them to use the darkest magics to defend themselves. The mage will die, and another will be born across the world. Magic won't ever disappear, so killing every mage is impossible. What do you hope to gain from that, other than the deaths of thousands of mages and Templars and commonfolk?