153429 réponses à ce sujet

[GloriousDame]

Well, he can still steal my heart... Just don't smash it. </3

Too late for that :'(  Hopefully an expanion will fix that right up. 

Looking at you, BioWare.

*wink, wink, nudge, nudge*

[madrar]

Spoiler

I think there's a possibility that Felassan had no choice in the matter of who he served. If he was truly an ancient-ancient elf, maybe he had pledged himself to an elven god/forgotten one. [Similiar to how Mythal can control if you drink from the well.]

 

He didn't seem to want Briala to have anything to do with who he might have been, and it didn't really come across as being sneaky so much as...protecting her, I guess? I felt very much like he had come to love her in a sort of fatherly way, and eventually he chose her over his master with the knowledge that it would kill him. 

 

Spoiler

I'm still reading (and should really be trying to avoid these spoilers more) but to me, the vibe Felassan gives off seems too woodsy-foresty for a Solas era ancient.  Old, definitely.  Arlathan ancient?   I have doubts.  

 

As an aside, can anyone who has read the book fill me in on why his particular vallaslin elicit such pointed shock from city elves?  I assume they're not so isolated from the Dalish to be surprised by the patterns of the usual pantheon.   Would an answer be serious spoiler territory?  

[jellobell]

I don't think Solas is guilt free in how the Dalish perceived him. He clearly doesn't care about any of the complexities of the situation when he wants people to listen to him. They just need to listen to him.

I don't think that's entirely fair. I don't truck with the idea of Solas as running roughshod over other people's beliefs and feelings. 9 times out of 10 he's willing to listen and talk things out, even when he thinks he's right. He's willing to let himself be convinced. He doesn't hold a grudge if you make Cole more human, for example. Or if you drink from the well and explain why you did it. With regards to the Dalish, I think it's more a matter of him having tried in the past and being repeatedly told to shove it, while at the same time realizing that what the Dalish are now is his fault. That's gotta be the bitterest of reminders of his own failure. I mean, you saw how that dalish elf treated him in his Measuring the Veil quest. She treated him like an idiot, and he did nothing more than poke her in return ("Ma nuvenin, da'len").

 

Now, I can totally see him coming on a bit too strong for the Dalish, in a "check out all of these cool ideas" kind of way. Like he does w/r/t the Fade and spirits in your first conversation with him. And then getting frustrated when people start backing away slowly.

[madrar]

I love everyone's theories. Ok what if the qunari were actually created by the ancient elves as soldiers and protectors?

 

I'm pretty sure that's the story of the dwarves, frankly.  Perhaps not so much "protectors" as a "magic-resistant weapon" in the civil war.   I need to dig up that particular banter between Varric and Solas....

[Birdy]

But who perpetrated the "twisted" legends of Fen'Harel if the only ones left at the aftermath of Arlathan's downfall were the lower classes?  Were they simply pissed off because he instigated it without giving them any kind of game plan for the future?

Perhaps they hated or really disliked him so spread rumors about his "bad" deeds.  So when the others left what was told to them became truth.

[madrar]

On Gaider's comics it is revealed that Qunari are descendants of dragons

 

 

There's almost certainly some breeding / dragon blood in them- even Bull has his theories.  Little details like their ears make me suspicious about exactly how.

 

....I need to photoshop the "ALIENS" guy to just say "ELVES".   It'd save a lot of time on this thread, in the long run.

[scintilla]

I don't think that's entirely fair. I don't truck with the idea of Solas as running roughshod over other people's beliefs and feelings. 9 times out of 10 he's willing to listen and talk things out, even when he thinks he's right. He's willing to let himself be convinced. He doesn't hold a grudge if you make Cole more human, for example. Or if you drink from the well and explain why you did it. With regards to the Dalish, I think it's more a matter of him having tried in the past and being repeatedly told to shove it, while at the same time realizing that what the Dalish are now is his fault. That's gotta be the bitterest of reminders of his own failure. I mean, you saw how that dalish elf treated him in his Measuring the Veil quest. She treated him like an idiot, and he did nothing more than poke her in return ("Ma nuvenin, da'len").

 

You're right, it isn't fair. The problem is that madrar's second paragraph wasn't too far from how it probably happened. Solas can't provide proof without giving away his identity (he may not have had the power to do it at the time, either) but he still expected them to take his word for it and it really isn't that easy. I don't think the reasons why Dalish are suspicious of outsiders factor into his judgment of them though. There are more circumstances surrounding how the elves of the present ended up where they are than just "Solas screwed up" and "they don't want to listen" and he doesn't seem to want to deal with any of those circumstances.

 

So Solas isn't entirely at fault and the Dalish aren't entirely at fault. I am a little tired of seeing people lay all the blame on the Dalish though.

[Tielis]

There's almost certainly some breeding / dragon blood in them- even Bull has his theories.  Little details like their ears make me suspicious about exactly how.

 

....I need to photoshop the "ALIENS" guy to just say "ELVES".   It'd save a lot of time on this thread, in the long run.

 

Either that or "A wizard (elf) did it."

[arelenriel]

But who perpetrated the "twisted" legends of Fen'Harel if the only ones left at the aftermath of Arlathan's downfall were the lower classes?  Were they simply pissed off because he instigated it without giving them any kind of game plan for the future?

I would suspect that not only the lower classes were left alive- there had to have been noble families that were not in uthenera who escaped the Civil War either due to being isolated in other parts of Elvenan, or who had originally sided with Fen'Harel about freeing the slaves who then saw what his poor planning and "for the greater good"/dumbledoresque attitude wrought in Elven society. They would have been the one's to create those stories after they were enslaved by the Imperium as a means of shifting the blame onto someone besides themselves .. Those that sided with the other Elven gods would have done so anyways - and those that had sided with Fen'Harel would not have wanted to accept that they could have stopped him, they could have worked with him to create a better plan, and they didn't. .. I think perhaps given that you hear Maretheri and Zathrian in DAO and DAII state that the Keepers can trace their ancestry to the nobility of Ancient Arlathan, and the Dales that it was the descendants of the surviving nobles that ended up in charge of everything when they escaped the Imperium during the first Exalted March, and they remained in power after the Dales fell during the Exalted Marches against the Dales- they became the Keepers and Hahrens of the Dalish clans and the Hahrens of the City Elf Alienages... Just a theory mind you but it makes sense in light of the last two games, books, and Awakening plus all DLC

[Tielis]

I would suspect that not only the lower classes were left alive- there had to have been noble families that were not in uthenera who escaped the Civil War either due to being isolated in other parts of Elvenan, or who had originally sided with Fen'Harel about freeing the slaves who then saw what his poor planning and "for the greater good"/dumbledoresque attitude wrought in Elven society. They would have been the one's to create those stories after they were enslaved by the Imperium as a means of shifting the blame onto someone besides themselves .. Those that sided with the other Elven gods would have done so anyways - and those that had sided with Fen'Harel would not have wanted to accept that they could have stopped him, they could have worked with him to create a better plan, and they didn't. .. I think perhaps given that you hear Maretheri and Zathrian in DAO and DAII state that the Keepers can trace their ancestry to the nobility of Ancient Arlathan, and the Dales that it was the descendants of the surviving nobles that ended up in charge of everything when they escaped the Imperium during the first Exalted March, and they remained in power after the Dales fell during the Exalted Marches against the Dales- they became the Keepers and Hahrents of the Dalish clans and the Hahrens of the City Elf Alienages... Just a theory mind you but it makes sense in light of the last two games, books, and Awakening plus all DLC

 

True, I forgot about that.  Just looking at "the Game" in Orlais hammers this point home rather well.  

[Mresa]

So I finally finished my first PT and Solas romance.....

 

I need that DLC. Like right now. 

[jellobell]

You're right, it isn't fair. The problem is that Mims's second paragraph wasn't too far from how it probably happened. Solas can't provide proof without giving away his identity (he may not have had the power to do it at the time, either) but he still expected them to take his word for it and it really isn't that easy. I don't think the reasons why Dalish are suspicious of outsiders factor into his judgment of them though. There are more circumstances surrounding how the elves of the present ended up where they are than just "Solas screwed up" and "they don't want to listen" and he doesn't seem to want to deal with any of those circumstances.

 

So Solas isn't entirely at fault and the Dalish aren't entirely at fault. I am a little tired of seeing people lay all the blame on the Dalish though.

True.

 

Now I'm imagining Solas, newly awoken and horrified at what's happened, going to the closest Dalish camp he can find and trying to give the Keeper all sorts of crazy-sounding advice. I...don't think that would've gone well. Oh, Solas.   Not really the Dalish's fault either. It's all just a really bad case of talking past one another, even with the best intentions.

 

Also, this doesn't really have anything to do with anything, but in reference to what Solas would like to drink I posited cocoa (because he has a sweet tooth and hates tea). Well I just heard this banter between Varric and Bull where we find out that Cocoa is really hard to get in southern Thedas and that Bull had to go through Varric to get some imported (which makes sense, given the climates of Orlais vs Par Vollen). And now all I want to do is write a fanfic where Lavellan jumps through all sorts of hoops to get some for Solas and he ends up loving it. Now that would've been a good gift quest.

[vertigomez]

So. Do you think the dwarves were still a "severed arm" (as in, not magical) back in the days of Arlathan? Does Solas remember a time when they had magic, or is he dismissive of them because they never have?

[madrar]

So. Do you think the dwarves were still a "severed arm" (as in, not magical) back in the days of Arlathan? Does Solas remember a time when they had magic, or is he dismissive of them because they never have?

 

My personal take on it:  the reference to a "severed arm" is that they were created as a military or defensive weapon by a faction that no longer exists.  (cue the it was ELVES guy)   Now they exist on their own terms, cut off and directionless.

 

Ancient elves may be to dwarves as dwarves are to golems, after a fashion.  When Solas refers to Varric as "child of the stone", I don't think it's entirely for lyrical effect.  

[madrar]

It seems likely to me that June and Sylvaise are "tacked on" by the Dalish after Arlathan was sealed and their society fell apart.   At the height of the elvish empire (and surely In the pre-veil world) there was no need for elves to know how to craft aravel or sew clothes from furs.  

 

In all likelihood those two weren't part of the original ruling pantheon: just resourceful survivors whose efforts got them in the books, dwarven paragon-style.  

Ok, fifteen minutes is all it took for me to change my mind on this.  

 

New record!

 

The above is contradicted by the mosaics in the Temple of Mythal, right?   June and Sylvaise are both represented so I suppose that makes them officially part of the Old Team.  Perhaps the recovering Dalish granted them credit for the insight to craft necessary cultural tools after the fact... or something.

[Abelas]

I'm willing to give him a little wiggle room here.   It's not just "I know better than you, and I expect you to thank me for something you didn't ask for."   That was the old, hot-blooded Solas, the one who wouldn't have named himself "Pride" as a reminder of what he cannot let himself become.   

 

Our Solas has seen his good intentions warp to horror and misery.   There is, aside from Flemythal and the remnants at the Shrine, no one else who can actually compare the modern system to what was before.   It's simplistic to criticize him for not getting "informed consent" from the world at large, given that they do not truly know what was lost (it's all supposition, even for us here) and thus -literally- cannot give it. 

 

Once, Solas overturned the status quo without the smallest shred of doubt, certain that what he was doing was right and that he knew what was best for all.  

 

Making that choice again is clearly a burden for him: an indescribably heavy one.  He knows the personal consequences of failure now, and would not wish his path on his worst enemy.  The enormity of it comes close to breaking him, and for that exact reason he cannot ask anyone else to take up the weight. 

 

For good or ill, it is his.  

 

I agree with this, actually. And this coming from a person who fully thinks he’s being condescending. 

 

His actions (or what we suspect are his actions) carry a lot of interpretations, and can be perceived through a lot of angles. No wonder he was so into the “it’s more complicated than that.” 

I mean we are here making our judgments but our point of view is really different from his and others. We can see overhead, and even if we don’t hold all the information, we are also emotionally unattached to it in the end. 

 

Not going through why I think he’s wrong in this reply here, though it can very easily be defined by: the people you are trying to help cannot be ignored in the making of this decision. 

However the reason why he ignores them is more complex than pure arrogance, after all, no one believes him (with very good reason). He doesn’t know how to make people believe, and something must be done, so he sees himself as the only person who can honestly make that choice. He’s wrong, and he’s being an arse, but there are various mitigating reasons to his actions. 

[Renmiri1]

I'm lazy so I didn't go into the depth you did with the traits we see in game but he has a whole slew of characteristics that aren't related back to how nice he is. I think ultimately he really does want good things for (most) people in the world and for the world as a whole. He cares, maybe even too much, and that's a big part of who is.

 

 

 

This. He's desperate for someone to see him for him.

 

I think there's a huge amount of passion underneath the more mild exterior, we see it when he burns up the mages and every time he gives in during the romance. He feels really, really deeply. He's probably very easy to hurt, if he's let you close enough. It's probably a factor in why his trust issues are so deep and why he so desperately needs to know that Lavellan sees him for him. Lavellan probably had more power in that relationship than most people realize.

so much this

[kalasaurus]

I ultimately decided on this style for my new Solas waifu Lavellan.  She's a rogue archer, and her appearance is loosely inspired by Jack from Mass Effect.

 

[zambixi]

Guys I'm supposed to be writing a paper and getting ready for a party but I just want to stay here 'cause your theories are wonderful and you all are wonderful

 

It seems likely to me that June and Sylvaise are "tacked on" by the Dalish after Arlathan was sealed and their society fell apart.   At the height of the elvish empire (and surely In the pre-veil world) there was no need for elves to know how to craft aravel or sew clothes from furs.  

 

In all likelihood those two weren't part of the original ruling pantheon: just resourceful survivors whose efforts got them in the books, dwarven paragon-style.  

 

June and Sylvaise are said to be siblings to Andruil though. They also seem to be pretty important to the "creation narrative" aspect of the Elves. Sure, eventually they built Arlathan, but at some point before then they were probably not all-powerful. Maybe Sylvaise didn't teach them how to sew and June didn't teach them to build aravels, but they probably taught them to craft and make something.

 

I think their mosaics also show up in the Temple of Mythal. Plus I doubt Solas would let that slide. "Those are slave markings...for a god that didn't even exist in the time of Elvhenan. Seriously do the Dalish get anything right?"

 

Whoa.  That seems a bit harsh, given what we know.  I wish I could reference the conversation that backs this up (perhaps someone here could fill in the blank?) but it's suggested that the source of his "not my people" relationship with the Dalish at the beginning of the game is not Solas.  He's approached them (possibly many, many times) and they basically called him a lunatic and slammed the door in his face.

 

Not terribly surprising, I suppose, given that his introduction to you is still pretty much full-blast "THE FADE IS GREAT AND SPIRITS ARE PEOPLE".  ...which I assume is Solas' version of easing you into the subject after failing so many times with "Hi, Dalish!  I'm a random, bare-faced expert on ancient elven culture.  Guess what you're doing wrong.  Hint.  The answer is 'everything'."  

 

 

Yeah, I'm at a loss too. I really hope they plan to have him grow away from those traits though. If his decision making remains couched in his biggest flaws, it seems more likely that he'll be an antagonist or even more broken the next time he shows up.

 

He already gave up his relationships. He might be given pause if it was lives on the line but then maybe he wouldn't.

 

 

I don't think Solas is guilt free in how the Dalish perceived him. He clearly doesn't care about any of the complexities of the situation when he wants people to listen to him. They just need to listen to him.

 

 

I think there are people within the inner circle who could be trusted. Cassandra, Varric, potentially Iron Bull. Cole. Not everyone is trustworthy to the same degree of course and the Inquisitor's in a tough position. I was talking more about how past experience reflects his ability to trust at all though. Basically his take is "don't trust at all" which may be necessary for a person in a position of power but it's also hurting him pretty badly both on a personal level and in his attempt to fix things.

 

 

I'm willing to give him a little wiggle room here.   It's not just "I know better than you, and I expect you to thank me for something you didn't ask for."   That was the old, hot-blooded Solas, the one who wouldn't have named himself "Pride" as a reminder of what he cannot let himself become.   

 

Our Solas has seen his good intentions warp to horror and misery.   There is, aside from Flemythal and the remnants at the Shrine, no one else who can actually compare the modern system to what was before.   It's simplistic to criticize him for not getting "informed consent" from the world at large, given that they do not truly know what was lost (it's all supposition, even for us here) and thus -literally- cannot give it. 

 

Once, Solas overturned the status quo without the smallest shred of doubt, certain that what he was doing was right and that he knew what was best for all.  

 

Making that choice again is clearly a burden for him: an indescribably heavy one.  He knows the personal consequences of failure now, and would not wish his path on his worst enemy.  The enormity of it comes close to breaking him, and for that exact reason he cannot ask anyone else to take up the weight. 

 

For good or ill, it is his.  

 

I'm out of likes but I want to like the above posts. Especially madrar's. I think his heavy heart is evidence that he has changed from his old self. I think if he could learn to trust just one other person it could open up the flood-gates on his empathy, so-to-speak. I hope. _solaspls

 

Spoiler

I'm still reading (and should really be trying to avoid these spoilers more) but to me, the vibe Felassan gives off seems too woodsy-foresty for a Solas era ancient.  Old, definitely.  Arlathan ancient?   I have doubts.  

 

As an aside, can anyone who has read the book fill me in on why his particular vallaslin elicit such pointed shock from city elves?  I assume they're not so isolated from the Dalish to be surprised by the patterns of the usual pantheon.   Would an answer be serious spoiler territory?  

 

You should definitely finish it.

 

Spoiler

I had the same opinion of Felassan when I started. There are a few things that come up later that made me think "oh OK I know where you're from". I guess he still could just be very well-informed but...yeah just finish the book xD.

 

No one knows what's up with his Vallaslin - it's never exactly explained. Briala says later that the city elves view the Dalish as legends/gods because they are the last of the People (paraphrasing). I don't think that the elves in her alienages are as familiar with the Dalish as we normally think they are. Plus he's a mage. I dunno if you're at the part where they meet the Dalish yet, but they don't seem to have the same reaction to the same extent.

 

So. Do you think the dwarves were still a "severed arm" (as in, not magical) back in the days of Arlathan? Does Solas remember a time when they had magic, or is he dismissive of them because they never have?

 

I think he remembers when they had magic, or were at least connected to the Fade. The Dwarven Empire fell properly in the First Blight, but even before that it's history is sort of strange. The Provings that setup the Paragon system didn't start until -1170 Ancient, well after Tevinter shows up. Paragons are a pretty big part of Dwarven religion these days, so what replaced them? They have the Stone, but it's not a very fleshed-out idea these days. There must have been something else. Important Dwarven dates for theory building:

 

• -4600 Ancient: elves are believed to first make contact with the dwarves
• -3100 Ancient: humans arrive in Thedas
• -2850 Ancient: quickening starts
• -1200 Ancient: Tevinter allies itself with the dwarves
• -1170 Ancient: Capital moves to Orzammar
• -1170 Ancient: Construction of Stonehammer Hall in Orzammar
• -1170 Ancient: Grand Provings begin, best warriors become first Paragons
• -981 Ancient: Tevinter besieges Arlathan
• -395 Ancient: The first blight begins

I think the Dwarves were something separate from the elves. Also note that a crap-ton happened from -1200 Ancient to -981 Ancient: just about 200 years. I don't think it's related to the Blight, but it might be related to whatever Solas did with the Veil, or humans showing up in Thedas.

[Renmiri1]

So I finally finished my first PT and Solas romance.....

 

I need that DLC. Like right now. 

Hugs.

 

Cookies and blankets to the right. Solas fanfic, screenies and smut to the left

 

Welcome to our Solas Recovery Ward

[kalasaurus]

So I finally finished my first PT and Solas romance.....

 

I need that DLC. Like right now. 

 

*hugs* There, there...

 

I am hoping too

[scintilla]

True.

 

Now I'm imagining Solas, newly awoken and horrified at what's happened, going to the closest Dalish camp he can find and trying to give the Keeper all sorts of crazy-sounding advice. I...don't think that would've gone well. Oh, Solas.   Not really the Dalish's fault either. It's all just a really bad case of talking past one another, even with the best intentions.

 

Also, this doesn't really have anything to do with anything, but in reference to what Solas would like to drink I posited cocoa (because he has a sweet tooth and hates tea). Well I just heard this banter between Varric and Bull where we find out that Cocoa is really hard to get in southern Thedas and that Bull had to go through Varric to get some imported (which makes sense, given the climates of Orlais vs Par Vollen). And now all I want to do is write a fanfic where Lavellan jumps through all sorts of hoops to get some for Solas and he ends up loving it. Now that would've been a good gift quest.

 

I had a like but I saw Abelas's post first. Damn it. I started thinking "it's more complicated than that" after posting, so I missed a golden opportunity there. Also got the other poster's name wrong. Oops.

 

I wonder if that's where he mastered his obvious, "****, I need to lie here" pause. "Why would you even suggest that?" "Because... reasons."

 

That is the cutest idea. I hope you do write it! 

 

Guys I'm supposed to be writing a paper and getting ready for a party but I just want to stay here 'cause your theories are wonderful and you all are wonderful 

 

I'm out of likes but I want to like the above posts. Especially madrar's. I think his heavy heart is evidence that he has changed from his old self. I think if he could learn to trust just one other person it could open up the flood-gates on his empathy, so-to-speak. I hope. _solaspls

 

Good luck with the paper! And have fun!

 

He's definitely changed from the way he was. I'm not sure him having a heavy heart means he's making the right decision though. He still has some growing to do - like you said, he needs to trust. I still think his pride is kind of a problem with the making a decision about the world all on his own, even if he feels bad about having to do it, he still doesn't even consider the possibility that there might be other ways. Like trusting people. And now I'm going in circles, so. Less pride, more trust, more empathy. You can do it, Solas!

[vertigomez]

My personal take on it:  the reference to a "severed arm" is that they were created as a military or defensive weapon by a faction that no longer exists.  (cue the it was ELVES guy)   Now they exist on their own terms, cut off and directionless.
 
Ancient elves may be to dwarves as dwarves are to golems, after a fashion.  When Solas refers to Varric as "child of the stone", I don't think it's entirely for lyrical effect.

Ooh, I can see that being the case. And maybe the caste system is a holdover from that time..?

Though I figured Solas calling Varric "Child of the Stone" was just him being elfy, since Child of the Stone = durgen'len = dwarf.

[madrar]

If Sandal is June, like my other crackpot theory, then it's obvious what he represented in ancient elven times.  That he taught the elves about clothes and aravels is just another Dalish perversion.

 

EDIT:  And that got me thinking of something else.  If the creators have all been corrupted, with both a light side and a dark side, maybe June created the Rite of Tranquility in order to have more slaves that could make stuff.  *shudder*

 

Ooooh.  I need to chew on that a bit.  @w@   I'm not sure I'm on board with Sandal = June, though there's definitely more there than a lyrium-addled dwarf.   (Do we know if he ever ages?   Being one of the early/ancient dwarven "tools" crafted for use by June would be... interesting.   Or being a Child of the Stone with quite a bit more lyrium in the mix than usual, giving him a direct line to the original Song of Creation and thus prophetic power.   It's all neck deep in crazy territory, but definitely interesting.)

[vertigomez]

The Dwarven Empire fell properly in the First Blight, but even before that it's history is sort of strange. The Provings that setup the Paragon system didn't start until -1170 Ancient, well after Tevinter shows up. Paragons are a pretty big part of Dwarven religion these days, so what replaced them? They have the Stone, but it's not a very fleshed-out idea these days. There must have been something else. Important Dwarven dates for theory building:
 

• -4600 Ancient: elves are believed to first make contact with the dwarves
• -3100 Ancient: humans arrive in Thedas
• -2850 Ancient: quickening starts
• -1200 Ancient: Tevinter allies itself with the dwarves
• -1170 Ancient: Capital moves to Orzammar
• -1170 Ancient: Construction of Stonehammer Hall in Orzammar
• -1170 Ancient: Grand Provings begin, best warriors become first Paragons
• -981 Ancient: Tevinter besieges Arlathan
• -395 Ancient: The first blight begins

I think the Dwarves were something separate from the elves. Also note that a crap-ton happened from -1200 Ancient to -981 Ancient: just about 200 years. I don't think it's related to the Blight, but it might be related to whatever Solas did with the Veil, or humans showing up in Thedas.

BLESS THIS POST. You should totally post it in the dwarf thread. Just sayin'.

I wonder, then, if the dwarves allying with Tevinter had anything to do with the final fall of Arlathan? I mean, we know now Arlathan mostly succumbed to itself, but the details are a bit fuzzy. Perhaps the dwarves were "punished" by taking away their magic? Err... these are just thoughts. No idea what I'm saying, really. But I do think it would be interesting if the Provings were a response to suddenly having no magic...