153429 réponses à ce sujet

[Birdy]

False equivalence much? People do not struggle under systematic oppression over chest hair. People do struggle under systematic oppression due to their sex and/or gender every day in real life.

 

I'm not touching the argument about whether or not Sera's comments should be removed, but the slippery slope argument gets under my skin a little bit. Avoiding transphobic/sexist/racist/etc. comments in video games isn't going to suddenly lead to games with flawless characters. There are plenty of flaws left over, and there are plenty of ways to talk about those issues without doing so in a way that is hurtful for others.

 

 

 

 

Fine, Solas' and Sera's racist comments.  But it really doesn't matter and wasn't the point. The point was, it was such a small little comment that I don't even see it being anything but mention that "He's a She."  I don't see the point in avoiding them anyway. The good and bad comments.  Yes it's wrong to talk or think badly about it, but everyone is entitled to their opinions, good and bad. Equality goes every which way.

 

[zambixi]

Nah... I wasn't saying anything like that.. I was just... I guess... sort of nitpicking stuffs since I'm a big fan of Leonard Cohen's works. Since the bulk of his works predate the current generation of 20s-30s people, a lot of the nuances, themes and subtext of his poems, songs and novels aren't really understood on large scale (most is just lost under the barrage of pop culture drivel. Cohen himself actually commented on the 'problem of popularity' when more people started to know/hear about him in the 2000s and though his works are further spread and enjoyed... most of the meanings aren't appreciated). People just know about Hallelujah (that Shrek song or the song sung by Burke) by Leonard Cohen and that's about it... which is a damn shame if you ask me. 

 

I was especially interested in Hallelujah's influence over the writing of Solas in Dragon Age Inquisition. When I read the article on Patrick Weeks's writing process and how he resonated with the rhythm of the original Hallelujah poem, it was clear to me that Weeks understood, appreciated, and respected the nuances of Cohen's works far more than the usual person/writer. This may sound funny/presumptious to you... but Cohen is a pillar of modern poetry and an icon when it comes to artistic song crafting (his songs are crafted from poems he wrote so the depth of the lyrics and meaning is far superior to anything in the pop/music industry these days). His works (including Hallelujah) have been referenced, copied, imitated and made use of in all sorts of manners by all sorts of writers, poets, and song crafters of all ilks already that it's not rare (or even unusual) for the beauty of his work to just be... appropriated without an ounce of respect or appreciation to the source materials and its depth.

 

I was.. happy... I guess... to see Hallelujah being appreciated by another person. So... I guess I got a little too excited (sorry...)

 

Any who, continuing on Weeks and Cohen's influence over the writing of Solas. This is just my personal opinion but the Bioware article reads to me like Weeks was interested and influenced by far more than just Hallelujah. The way he was able to discern the subtle rhythm of the poem makes it feel like he's a fan of Cohen the writer and poet too, not just Cohen the song writer. If that is true, it wouldn't surprise me that Cohen's own themes as a whole influenced the writing of Solas and his romance... not just Hallelujah. 

 

FYI, the central themes of Cohen's works are: religion, politics, depression, and love and sex (He's Jews). These are pretty broad topic and I probably am biased (or thinking wishfully) but don't those sound like the central building blocks of Solas's character: his knowledge of the mythical, his faith/belief, his thinking on politics, his depression (or fixation on doom, gloom and fallen empire as Varric put it) and his passion (his rebellious nature, also his falling for Lavellan despite knowing that it would be no good).

 

The moment I learned the tight connections between the writing of Solas and Hallelujah's themes and stories, I was reminded of another Cohen's song.

 

Suzanne which is the song that surpasses Hallelujah on the number of times it has been covered by various artists and singers despite not being very popular with modern music lovers (it predates Hallelujah by a long time). Also... it did not have the mass appeal / relatively easy to digest nature of Hallelujah.

 

Here are some lines from Suzanne for you to mull about:

 

"And just when you mean to tell her

That you have no love to give her
Then she gets you on her wavelength
And she lets the river answer
That you've always been her lover
And you want to travel with her
And you want to travel blind
And you know that she will trust you

For you've touched her perfect body with your mind. "

 

"And Jesus was a sailor

When he walked upon the water
And he spent a long time watching
From his lonely wooden tower
And when he knew for certain
Only drowning men could see him
He said "All men will be sailors then
Until the sea shall free them"
But he himself was broken
Long before the sky would open
Forsaken, almost human
He sank beneath your wisdom like a stone
And you want to travel with him
And you want to travel blind
And you think maybe you'll trust him
For he's touched your perfect body with his mind. 

Now Suzanne takes your hand
And she leads you to the river
She is wearing rags and feathers
From Salvation Army counters
And the sun pours down like honey
On our lady of the harbour
And she shows you where to look
Among the garbage and the flowers
There are heroes in the seaweed
There are children in the morning
They are leaning out for love
And they will lean that way forever
While Suzanne holds the mirror
And you want to travel with her
And you want to travel blind
And you know that you can trust her

For she's touched your perfect body with her mind." 

 

 

Can you hear the echoes of various Solas and Solavellan's elements in those lyrics? 

 

Note: Sorry for any typo/grammar mistake. English ain't my first language. 

 

It's been a long time since a poem/song has made me tear up - and I was a Publishing major, I read a ton of poetry -  but that did it. Thank you for sharing.

[Birdy]

http://silverchimaer...erchimaeraheart

[scintilla]

Oof.  It's going to be tough to find common ground here, I can tell.  Look.  Every current culture is terrible.   it may be a matter of degree (Ferelden doesn't sport Tevinter-style slavery or Qunari mind police) but alienages are pretty strong evidence of social breakdown, and the Dalish are barely a savage shadow of what Elves once were.     

 

I get where you're coming from with Sera, I really do.  But the core of her character is problematic.  She defines a huge part of her self - who she is- as a kneejerk reaction to external expectations.   Not!Elf.  You can fault Solas for pushing her too hard toward a particular concept of what he believes elves share and what they "should" be, but- as their banter occasionally elicits- he's not entirely wrong about her true nature.  

 

Does she have the "right" to define herself as the negative space around a concept?  It's not particularly healthy, but sure.  

 

But he also has the right to challenge that. 

 

Every culture is terrible. Solas admits that his own culture was terrible. The problem comes in when he can't admit to any value in the modern cultures. They aren't all just straight up terrible - like any culture there are good and bad things about them. He does see the good things in his own culture, of course. So I guess the point is that he doesn't see them clearly.

 

Sera pushes back very hard against the idea of what she should be. Presumably she has been encountering people like Solas all her life who have told her what she's meant to be. I don't think she defines herself as a "negative space around a concept" so much as she refuses to take on any aspect of the concept out of spite. It's still unhealthy but she's not defining herself purely as "not elf" but as "person who is not elf."

 

Sure, he has the right. But that makes him arrogant and prejudiced.

 

You're right that he's not entirely wrong about Sera and that there's common ground there. That doesn't mean he should push her repeatedly after she's made her choice. He can't make people change with pure force of will and Sera doesn't want to change. No one else can make that decision for her.

[Lorien19]

I never said that Sera wasn't racist herself. She is. I'm not defending Sera's flaws - I'm saying she has a right to choose how she lives and Solas has no right to try to tell her she's wrong. Once she said 'no, I don't want to' there should have been no more discussion.

 

Solas does question if he's been fair to the Dalish once or twice. He never actually changes his opinion about them. Not even for a Lavellan he's in love with. The balcony scene is his "racist compliment" scene - the one where he tells a non-romanced Inquisitor that he likes that they're so much different from the rest of their race.

Yeah she certainly has.As for Solas  his opinion on the Dalish does change,slightly but it does.However he's not entirely wrong about them either as they tend to be close-minded at times and cling too tight to a past that might have not even existed,still I didn't appreciate the fact that he judged them as a whole,neglecting that each individual is responsible for their actions and thoughts.But I  think as far as the elves are concerned (Dalish and city)he's being more bitter than racist.As for the other races,well it's an other story.

[Renmiri1]

Just a note, it would help your case if you wouldn't use "trans" like you have been. It isn't "a trans" or "the trans", just like you don't say "a gay" or "a black", just add "person", "man", "woman", etc. to the end of it.


*slinks away*

My apologies.

[Aetheria]

Needles to mention that Morrigan was my favourite character in Origins.I always seem to like the mysterious ones.

Yeah, I'm already planning to take this character through the game again on a harder difficulty at the end of my epic replay of the entire DA series, since this was my favorite version of the DAI story, and my new personal canon Warden is probably going to romance Morrigan... because so much thematic consistency!

 

And so much tragic love. I'm sure by the end I'll be asking "why did I do this to myself" >.<

[madrar]

 

 

So his only flaw is that he gives up on present? Not that he gave Corypheus the orb - this is after he made his first big mistake and supposedly learned all about how wrong his pride was - or that his response to Corypheus actually using the orb amounts to "I didn't think some Tevinter scrub could use it?" And that's why he handed an extremely powerful artifact to a blighted madman with a god complex?

 

 

Oops, missed this.   Two things here.  First, Solas may have been (and may still be) naive about some of the darker aspects of human nature, but he's not an idiot- he didn't hand his orb to the blighted, crazed Darkspawn!Corypheus we know today.  He gave his orb to powerful mortal magister!Corypheus when he woke up to find Tevinter crushing the people he'd just sacrificed his peers to "save" thousands of years ago.  

 

Remember: during the Haven encounter Corypheus describes having once "breached the fade in the name of another".  It's possible Solas sent him there expressly to negotiate the return of the elvish leadership.   Of course, according to Corypheus, finding nothing but darkness (blight) the magisters instead bent it to their will and unleashed the First Blight.  So much for that plan, Solas.

 

Feel free to add "painful lack of foresight" to his laundry list of character flaws.

[Addai]

Solas says he never believed Corypheus could wield the orb. He thought he was like the magisters he had known of old, not a being that had been drawing on the power of the Blight and deluded Grey Wardens for a thousand years. I think he assumed that in using the orb, Corypheus would die and he (Solas) could take his power to reactivate it. Clearly he miscalculated, badly. That's kind of the story of Solas' life.

Screenshot time

[Lorien19]

Every culture is terrible. Solas admits that his own culture was terrible. The problem comes in when he can't admit to any value in the modern cultures. They aren't all just straight up terrible - like any culture there are good and bad things about them. He does see the good things in his own culture, of course. So I guess the point is that he doesn't see them clearly.

 

Sera pushes back very hard against the idea of what she should be. Presumably she has been encountering people like Solas all her life who have told her what she's meant to be. I don't think she defines herself as a "negative space around a concept" so much as she refuses to take on any aspect of the concept out of spite. It's still unhealthy but she's not defining herself purely as "not elf" but as "person who is not elf."

 

Sure, he has the right. But that makes him arrogant and prejudiced.

 

You're right that he's not entirely wrong about Sera and that there's common ground there. That doesn't mean he should push her repeatedly after she's made her choice. He can't make people change with pure force of will and Sera doesn't want to change. No one else can make that decision for her.

You think he doesn't know that he can be both?Man named himself "pride" after all.

Well,Solas as every other character has flaws as he has redeeming qualities,a character without the first or second is a bad character.

[Birdy]

Oops, missed this.   Two things here.  First, Solas may have been (and may still be) naive about some of the darker aspects of human nature, but he's not an idiot- he didn't hand his orb to the blighted, crazed Darkspawn!Corypheus we know today.  He gave his orb to powerful mortal magister!Corypheus when he woke up to find Tevinter crushing the people he'd just sacrificed his peers to "save" thousands of years ago.  

 

Remember: during the Haven encounter Corypheus describes having once "breached the fade in the name of another".  It's possible Solas sent him there expressly to negotiate the return of the elvish leadership.   Of course, according to Corypheus, finding nothing but darkness (blight) the magisters instead bent it to their will and unleashed the First Blight.  So much for that plan, Solas.

 

Feel free to add "painful lack of foresight" to his laundry list of character flaws.

But in DA2 he says he breached it in the name of Dumat. Unless the Dread Wolf is Dumat.  But wasn't he the first one to be killed?

[Lorien19]

Oops, missed this.   Two things here.  First, Solas may have been (and may still be) naive about some of the darker aspects of human nature, but he's not an idiot- he didn't hand his orb to the blighted, crazed Darkspawn!Corypheus we know today.  He gave his orb to powerful mortal magister!Corypheus when he woke up to find Tevinter crushing the people he'd just sacrificed his peers to "save" thousands of years ago.  

 

Remember: during the Haven encounter Corypheus describes having once "breached the fade in the name of another".  It's possible Solas sent him there expressly to negotiate the return of the elvish leadership.   Of course, according to Corypheus, finding nothing but darkness (blight) the magisters instead bent it to their will and unleashed the First Blight.  So much for that plan, Solas.

 

Feel free to add "painful lack of foresight" to his laundry list of character flaws.

I think by "In the name of another" he meant Dunmat.Although I wonder when exactly did Solas wake up from his slumber.I had the impression that he did so recently.

[Birdy]

Ha.

http://seventhh3ll.t...-of-me-asking-a

[The Oracle]

Playing today and I started shouting at the screen when Solas said something about taking his promises/responsibilities seriously. I was just like "Eh, suddenly forgot this little line when you fecked off and left my poor little Elf on her own did you? Short bloody memory for someone who can recall the dreams of a million random nobodies!"

 

Heard a thumping noise beside me and saw my own little Wolf staring up at me adoringly, her tail wagging. *sigh* Well at least one canine loves me unconditionally and I can hug her whenever I want. XD

 

Spoiler

[scintilla]

Oops, missed this.   Two things here.  First, Solas may have been (and may still be) naive about some of the darker aspects of human nature, but he's not an idiot- he didn't hand his orb to the blighted, crazed Darkspawn!Corypheus we know today.  He gave his orb to powerful mortal magister!Corypheus when he woke up to find Tevinter crushing the people he'd just sacrificed his peers to "save" thousands of years ago.  

 

Remember: during the Haven encounter Corypheus describes having once "breached the fade in the name of another".  It's possible Solas sent him there expressly to negotiate the return of the elvish leadership.   Of course, according to Corypheus, finding nothing but darkness (blight) the magisters instead bent it to their will and unleashed the First Blight.  So much for that plan, Solas.

 

Feel free to add "painful lack of foresight" to his laundry list of character flaws.

 

I actually don't think giving the orb to mortal!magister Corypheus is any better. Pretty sure messed up madman would still apply. You're very certain of this and it's a good theory but I'm not sure it's necessarily the only theory worth considering.

 

He does have a painful lack of foresight though. Poor sweetheart. He really does try.

[Lorien19]

Yeah, I'm already planning to take this character through the game again on a harder difficulty at the end of my epic replay of the entire DA series, since this was my favorite version of the DAI story, and my new personal canon Warden is probably going to romance Morrigan... because so much thematic consistency!

 

And so much tragic love. I'm sure by the end I'll be asking "why did I do this to myself" >.<

My thoughts exactly!Hopefully the Solasmancers will get a similar closure to witch hunt though.

[lapsi4ka]

Feel free to add "painful lack of foresight" to his laundry list of character flaws.

 

 

*sings*  ‘Cause all of me
 Loves all of you
 Love your curves and all your edges
 All your perfect imperfections
 Give your all to me
 I'll give my all to you
 You're my end and my beginning
 Even when I lose I'm winning
 ‘Cause I give you all of me
 And you give me all of you

 

Spoiler

[madrar]

But in DA2 he says he breached it in the name of Dumat. Unless the Dread Wolf is Dumat.  But wasn't he the first one to be killed?

 

Ah!  If that's the reference, then you're right.   I have huge lore weakspots, so that theory is out.  

 

So... uh, what exactly did he hand off the orb to Corypheus to do, if he didn't think he was capable of unlocking it?  

 

*note: "capable" here not necessarily having the meaning of "because he's a human mortal", but rather "because unlocking it in these conditions would require an unfathomable amount of blood magic- surely no one is capable of slaughter on that scale."

[Kouren]

Yes, Dumat was the first Archdemon, if existing lore is to be believed. DA:I does draw strong parallels between the Old Gods and the Elvhen pantheon (particularly through the Astariums), but I'm still not convinced they're one and the same. Despite similarities, their supposed fates are speculated to be widely different. It does beg the question of why Solas is so against killing the Old Gods before they can be corrupted into archdemons, but I can see a lot of different answers to that. The lack of direction may just let the darkspawn roam with no purpose but destruction, for all we know.

[Aetheria]

Also I have to agree that the elven protagonist gets smacked around by the story even more than the Inquisitor is by default. While everyone else in the Inquisition is worrying that the Maker might not care about them, at least those are just worries. Poor Lavellan actually meets two of their gods in person, and one straight-up says "yeah I know you guys were praying to me for years and I'm still not going to help you out" while the other accidentally almost causes the end of the world and also potentially breaks their heart. That's rough.

Oh, and I forgot to mention "also possibly learns that she's been walking around with HI I'M A SLAVE tattooed on her face her whole life". D:  Poor girl needs a hug.

 

On another note, the question I really want answered is WHAT Solas appears to be stealing from Flemeth in the final scene. Mythal? Kieran's Old God soul? (Even though iirc Kieran doesn't exist in some world-states, she could have gotten one another way...) Her immortality? The ability to turn into a dragon at plot-convenient moments?

[Renmiri1]

Fine, Solas' and Sera's racist comments.  But it really doesn't matter and wasn't the point. The point was, it was such a small little comment that I don't even see it being anything but mention that "He's a She."  I don't see the point in avoiding them anyway. The good and bad comments.  Yes it's wrong to talk or think badly about it, but everyone is entitled to their opinions, good and bad. Equality goes every which way.

 

If I headcanon that the offensive comment was not in the game I can actually like Sera, she is fun in a childish way and her baking horrid cookies is what lifted my Lavellan's spirit after the breakup.

 

Sera does have a lot of growing up to do but Solas isn't the one who can or should determine when or how Sera does this.  He himself has a few things he is being a baby about, dumping Lavellan included

[Birdy]

Ah!  If that's the reference, then you're right.   I have huge lore weakspots, personally, so I wouldn't be surprised. 

I don't judge when it comes to DA2. A lot of people skipped and/or rage quit it.  

 

[Lorien19]

Oops, missed this.   Two things here.  First, Solas may have been (and may still be) naive about some of the darker aspects of human nature, but he's not an idiot- he didn't hand his orb to the blighted, crazed Darkspawn!Corypheus we know today.  He gave his orb to powerful mortal magister!Corypheus when he woke up to find Tevinter crushing the people he'd just sacrificed his peers to "save" thousands of years ago.  

 

Remember: during the Haven encounter Corypheus describes having once "breached the fade in the name of another".  It's possible Solas sent him there expressly to negotiate the return of the elvish leadership.   Of course, according to Corypheus, finding nothing but darkness (blight) the magisters instead bent it to their will and unleashed the First Blight.  So much for that plan, Solas.

 

Feel free to add "painful lack of foresight" to his laundry list of character flaws.

I actually think it's the opposite,he focuses more on what lies ahead than he should.Like some chess players that think 5 moves ahead and end up loosing the game when the opponent reacts in an unpredictable manner,see Corypheus. 

[Mresa]

Hugs.

 

Cookies and blankets to the right. Solas fanfic, screenies and smut to the left

 

Welcome to our Solas Recovery Ward

 

Thank you that is exactly what I need. 

 

But I gotta say that I did love the romance! It was very different from what I expected, as I knew nothing since I avoided the forums till I finished the game. It was very touching, looking forward to seeing how it's handled in the DLC.

[Aetheria]

My thoughts exactly!Hopefully the Solasmancers will get a similar closure to witch hunt though.

I'm not getting my hopes up for future DLC/sequels providing a really content-rich closure to the romance storyline, since after all it wouldn't be content that the majority of players would see. But I'm pretty sure they'll at least have a few lines or a piece of cutscene or something relating to it, even if just a passing reference in the next DA game.