153429 réponses à ce sujet

[amranthe]

Eh, I don't know.  I feel that lying about your identity to someone you're romantically involved with is... ethically questionable, at best.  I can understand him hiding it from someone he doesn't trust, and to an extent, even someone he's just friends with.  But, once you're in a romantic (and potentially sexual) relationship with someone, honesty is key.  Yes, his circumstances are rather extraordinary, but it's still lying and pretending to be something else.  His personality may not be different, but would Lavellan had truly consented to a relationship had she known the truth?  Perhaps, but she was never given the chance.  And now she's left hanging with no real answers as to why he broke up and left.

 

I hope that she gets those answers, at least.

 

To me the difference comes in that he's not "lying" about who he is, he's lying about what he is. I believe his personality, motivations, etc, are all genuine. His only "lie" is that he doesn't tell you right out that he's Fen'harel. Which to me is understandable.

 

Also to be fair it's not like he came to the Inquisition with the intention of getting into your pants. He didn't lie just to sleep with you. The romance blossomed naturally, and once he sees he's in too deep and has to either tell you the truth or leave, he leaves.

 

Also my headcanon is that they haven't slept together, so I don't have issues there either. It's easy enough to read it either way, so if you think him sleeping with her would be morally objectionable, there's no reason to think he did so.

[kalasaurus]

As far as Solas viewing Lavellan as a child: I'm not sure I agree. I think that is a part of it, but more from his fear of how you might react. Even so though, he constantly says how you surpass his expectations, how you surprise him. I don't think he would believe you incapable of understanding. I think it has more to do with the fact that he has unfinished business. At the point of the breakup, you are just about to face Cory. Assuming you live, Solas is thinking he might have a chance at getting his orb back, and so has to go do whatever it is he had to do. Part of me thinks he was planning to sacrifice himself in some way, due to the way he talks to Flemeth at the end "I should be the one to pay the price". So in this case, he breaks up with you because he wanted to spare you the (possibly worse) heart ache of having him die on you. Either he was going to die, or have to go back to sleep again, either way, kind of terrible for you.

 

This has been said here before, but he's infantilizing Lavellan by assuming she just can't handle the truth and pain that may come from it in the future.  It may seem noble to protect her, but in doing so he's, well, severely limiting her ability to make both an informed decision on their relationship and truly understand what's going on.  That isn't fair to her.  If he saw her as an equal, he'd give her that much.

 

Leaving without making anything clear just makes it more painful, too, IMO.  Now she's left wondering "why", with no solid answers.

[Illyria]

To me the difference comes in that he's not "lying" about who he is, he's lying about what he is. I believe his personality, motivations, etc, are all genuine. His only "lie" is that he doesn't tell you right out that he's Fen'harel. Which to me is understandable.

 

Also to be fair it's not like he came to the Inquisition with the intention of getting into your pants. He didn't lie just to sleep with you. The romance blossomed naturally, and once he sees he's in too deep and has to either tell you the truth or leave, he leaves.

 

Also my headcanon is that they haven't slept together, so I don't have issues there either. It's easy enough to read it either way, so if you think him sleeping with her would be morally objectionable, there's no reason to think he did so.

 

This.  I think people tend to get to caught up in thinking of Fen'Harel as an actual god, when Solas suggests that the gods were just powerful mages (and he'd be the one to know).  I think the Solas we see in the game is the real him and what he lies about is how old he is, and how he came by a lot of his knowledge. And at the point where he could tell the a romanced Lavellan the truth (after the Temple of Mythal) he decides to break off the relationship instead.

[kalasaurus]

But he is a mage, making him an apostate. Leliana does find the elven village he mentioned--albeit he probably hadn't lived there for a long time; he very well could have grown up there.

 

I feel like this is another time of needing to agree to disagree. A name does not make a person in my book.

 

Hence the half-truths that form a new identity.  I also never said a name makes a person (but pretending to something else is an entirely different topic), but alright let's agree to disagree and drop it.

[Astelspirals]

it could just be fear keeping him from saying anything. like, the thing where his omission of who he is has gone on so long that he's more afraid of telling them than of not. the Inquisition has become such a big thing and he's gotten in so deep that who he is is now the elephant in the room, and he can't quite find a way to talk about it. (whether romanced or not)

[Ajna]

I'm out of likes *sulk*

[Amriah]

This has been said here before, but he's infantilizing Lavellan by assuming she just can't handle the truth and pain that may come from it in the future.  It may seem noble to protect her, but in doing so he's, well, severely limiting her ability to make both an informed decision on their relationship and truly understand what's going on.  That isn't fair to her.  If he saw her as an equal, he'd give her that much.

 

Leaving without making anything clear just makes it more painful, too, IMO.  Now she's left wondering "why", with no solid answers.

 

It's worse if you remove the vallaslin. She worries that's the reason Solas leaves, according to Cole, and that part broke my heart.

[madrar]

 

I also have a theory. I think Arlathan is the black city in the fade and that Solas is possibly the maker in andrastian. I think this because he has pretty much turned away from everyone and even asks if he has miss judged them. Oh and when you talk to him about battles he has seen in the fade, he talks about savages that carried a tune better then the chantry could ever dream of. I think this references Andraste and her army, because I was reading some codex somewhere that talked about how they would sing as they marched into battle....I will have to look up all the info and post it later for references...Let me know what you guys think! Oh and I definitely think that the people he was talking about helping in his conversation with Flemeth was not the people of Thedas, but the other gods still locked away.

 

Well... yes and no.   As has been argued elsewhere, if Solas is responsible for raising the veil (-and that's a huge 'if'-) then he could be considered, in some respects, the Andrastean Maker, since that would be the event that created "reality" as we know it.  Or at least the one that made a persistent reality possible.  

 

However, the timing of that is suspect, and there's a tantalizing Dalish myth about Elgar'nan and Mythal "recreating" the world after he throws down the (titan/Maker) sun that suggest Andrasteans correctly (probably far more correctly than they realize in the modern day) describe the Maker's original creation as the world before the veil, when all was one and everything sang the same, and that Elgar'nan and Mythal had a heavy hand in shaping the world of Thedas after it was raised.

 

Anyway.  Do I think Solas was involved in the Andrastean slave revolt?  Absolutely.  I think he and Mythal cooked the whole revolution/Chantry thing up together, actually.  However, I think he's Shartan in this context.  (Or at the very least, Shartan was a direct agent of his.)  

 

One would assume that Solas' pride in that era would have been freshly stung and humbled.  Regardless of his possible agency in the raising of the veil and how broadly you want to define "creation", there's no way he'd have chosen to paint himself into the new Chantry mythos as the Maker.  

[Sine_Amore]

I'm out of likes *sulk*

Gave you one to make you feel better. *thumbs up*

 

Edit: 100 post benchmark, woo!

Modifié par Sine_Amore, 14 décembre 2014 - 05:14 .

[kalasaurus]

To me the difference comes in that he's not "lying" about who he is, he's lying about what he is. I believe his personality, motivations, etc, are all genuine. His only "lie" is that he doesn't tell you right out that he's Fen'harel. Which to me is understandable.

 

He may not outright lie, but he gives half-truths that omit the complete truth on many things on top of being Fen'Harel- his motivations for being there, why and how he appeared at the Temple of Sacred Ashes after the explosion, his motivations for the orb.

 

 

Also to be fair it's not like he came to the Inquisition with the intention of getting into your pants. He didn't lie just to sleep with you. The romance blossomed naturally, and once he sees he's in too deep and has to either tell you the truth or leave, he leaves.

 

Also my headcanon is that they haven't slept together, so I don't have issues there either. It's easy enough to read it either way, so if you think him sleeping with her would be morally objectionable, there's no reason to think he did so.

 

I never said he lied to get in her pants.  I do believe that he genuinely loves Lavellan and cares about her, but he's hiding something huge that will impact how she views both him and the relationship.

[LapCat]

I would call him a liar, but honestly, I don't have an issue with that. What he is dealing with is potentially earth shattering and maybe dealing with the essence of all things. That's a lot, and if keeping himself hidden is what is necessary, then so be it. I don't like dishonesty, but I would never say that it doesn't have a place in the world or is never the best path.

 

As for telling your romantic partner the truth, I think he believes it as well which is why he high tailed it out of the relationship. He couldn't tell her and realized that it was unfair to her to press further (among other reasons). It's not just a matter of protecting her either; it's a matter of protecting the world.

[Ajna]

Gave you one to make you feel better. *thumbs up*

[kalasaurus]

Note, I'm not actually debating on (his own perception on) the necessity of him lying.  I'm mostly just arguing that, yes, he is lying and it's wrong in the context of a relationship.

[Tielis]

Note, I'm not actually debating on (his own perception on) the necessity of him lying.  I'm mostly just arguing that, yes, he is lying and it's wrong in the context of a relationship.

 

I think it's best to just drop it at this point, though I do agree with you.  When you get people saying that lying is okay but only in certain situations, well... I just tend to walk away from there.

[madrar]

Yes, but Shartan was before the fall of Arthanan....I think. It is an interesting possibility, but I do not lean to strongly in this direction either. Sorry for all the typo's I am exhausted and have not had a lot of sleep.

 

Er.  What?   Shartan was well after the fall of Arlathan.   Broad overview:  Arlathan falls, elvish society crumbles, Tevinter sweeps in and steals what's left, enslaving the population that survives.  Cue much time passing.   Andraste and Shartan rise, slave revolt spreads, modern nations are carved out of the Tevinter Imperium.  

[jellobell]

Note, I'm not actually debating on (his own perception on) the necessity of him lying.  I'm mostly just arguing that, yes, he is lying and it's wrong in the context of a relationship.

Yep. Solas would probably agree with you. Hence the bit about "selfish mistake".

 

I don't agree that he's infantilizing her at all, though. I think he does see her as an equal. That's why he fell in love with her. 

[Amriah]

This has been fun to see this forum talk about stuff. Y'all are really nice, I'm happy I found myself in these parts.

[zambixi]

I'm still not sold on the idea that he does intend to end their world. People have all these doom'saying ideas and I just don't see it. It's not all or nothing. There can be some middle ground. Solas does seem to see that there are things worth saving along with things worth changing. But perhaps, again, it's just my boundless optimism. However, I do not think that things will be all sunshine and daises.

 

Welcome to the optimism gang!  They NEED us!

 

Me too! Not sunshine and rainbows, but maybe thistles and overcast instead of deathroot and tornadoes? I want to believe Solas isn't so dumb as to try and make things 100% how they were before.

 

 

Well, to be fair, he does want to release the guy who needed to be worshiped so badly that he murdered all those who wouldn't submit. Enough to fill oceans with blood and that came straight from Solas. That sounds pretty bad to me. (Falon'din for main villain in DA4!) For all their wonders, Solas is willing to admit the Elven gods committed countless atrocities against their own people. Those are the guys he wants to let out and unlike Flemeth, he doesn't seem to want to destroy them. (I can only hope he does and tied to Flemeth maybe now he will.) I won't go so far as to put them on Wheel of Time Forsaken levels as the legends of their depravities have not survived through the ages despite being Sealed Evil in a Can, but there's a comparison to be made there.

 

Ancient magitech society. Created the Bore. (Got rid of the Fade). Tunneled into the Dark One's Prison. (Possibly created the Darkspawn) Dark One occasionally releases hordes of monsters to terrorize the countryside. Destroyed magic and the world as they knew it. Etc.

 

I'm just not sure if "the sky opening wide and everyone being like they were" is a good thing. When those grumps wake up they're going to want things to go back to the way they were and with the Veil down they may have the power to do it. So, what exactly does that mean for everyone currently living in Thedas?

 

I think Solas believes he's atoning for a mistake. I believe he thinks it's the right thing to do. I don't agree the world he wants to create will be better for anyone, not even him. (Not even for the surviving Ancient elves.)

 

We don't know if that is what he intends. I got the impression that they're his "friends" that messed up. He still loves them, but still knows messed up too. He's not walking around with rose-colored glasses like the Dalish are, and he tells you about their flaws. We're all making assumptions about what we feel is is most likely course of action but he could be doing something completely different. We don't really have enough information to know what his plans are for certain, and whether or not those plans will benefit anyone. Personally, if he can bring down all or part of the Veil I'd like to see it. Well, I'd really like the elven gods to wake up too because I think that would just be fun to play but I don't really want that to be his idea. I just want them to poof out of their slumber.

 

 

This has been said here before, but he's infantilizing Lavellan by assuming she just can't handle the truth and pain that may come from it in the future.  It may seem noble to protect her, but in doing so he's, well, severely limiting her ability to make both an informed decision on their relationship and truly understand what's going on.  That isn't fair to her.  If he saw her as an equal, he'd give her that much.

 

Leaving without making anything clear just makes it more painful, too, IMO.  Now she's left wondering "why", with no solid answers.

 

This is my #1 gripe (I've said this before haha). But to play devil's advocate...Lavellan is not his equal. She does not have knowledge or (presumably) his eventual power. She isn't immortal. No one considers her a god. I think this is one of the fundamental problems with their relationship as is. They're not equals, so while Solas may value Lavellan there is a limit to how much he can share with her. I really REALLY hope that in the future Lavellan can gain a little ground. She is mostly there being the Herald and leader of the Inquisition; I'd love to see her deal with one or two more Big Things, without his guidance or assistance.

[Eivuwan]

I also can't help thinking that for we all know, he may well BE Solas *cough*Flemythal*cough*

 

I am inclined to believe that Solas IS Fen'Harel and not an elf merged with the dread wolf's spirit. This is because Flemeth refers to herself as Flemeth even after revealing that she had Mythal's soul in her. In the last scene, Flemeth called Solas Dread Wolf and he responded so naturally as though he really is Dread Wolf. I just get the sense that Flemeth and Mythal do come across as having separate identities in their portrayal in the game, but Solas and Fen'Harel comes off as the same person.

[kalasaurus]

I think it's best to just drop it at this point, though I do agree with you.  When you get people saying that lying is okay but only in certain situations, well... I just tend to walk away from there.

 

You're right.  I can agree to disagree and drop it.

[Tielis]

Yep. Solas would probably agree with you. Hence the bit about "selfish mistake".

 

I don't agree that he's infantilizing her at all, though. I think he does see her as an equal. That's why he fell in love with her. 

 

Well, I think he thinks he's not infantilizing her, but by not giving her the whole story in order to make a truly informed decision, unfortunately he is.  

 

Actions define a man, not his thoughts or feelings.

[nightwolf667]

Im not sure Solas has a plan that simple and 'stupid' ?

 

I mean he usually has a good strategic mind and wants some sort of free-will  for people.

 

 

Now will he be turned into a raving Big Bad lets-end-the-world-as-we-know-it type? I guess it all depends on Bioware.

 

Except when it came to Corypheus, his plan was simple and it was stupid.

 

Solas has two critical flaws, his idealism and his belief in elvhen superiority over all other races. I say racism instead of pride (though it still is pride) because that was the driving force behind his belief that Cory would never figure out how to use the orb to its full potential because he was just a dumb human. I fully believe he intended for Corypheus to generate enough power to unlock the orb, but die in the process. Corypheus, however, is more durable than that and he did figure it out. Dorian will even tell you they have similar foci in Tevinter (or they used to?) based on that same elven technology. And... that's the kickstarter for the main plot of the game.

 

The mistakes Solas makes are when he makes decisions based on what he thinks he understands, instead of actually taking the time to understand. The games he plays are high stakes, any miscalculation or error there will be catastrophic. He acts rashly instead of being patient (like Mythal) and his rashness is driven by his desperation, his desperation will drive him to make mistakes. Whether or not he succeeds, he's not going to get what he was after.

 

The only examples of him actually winning at the game have been with the other party members. When it comes to his plans working out in the main plot, he really hasn't been doing so hot. He gets close, but hits a speed bump which lands him critical failure. I do think he'll probably get what he wants (unless Bioware chickens out when it comes to massively changing their setting), but it won't be what he expects. I do hope that, like Anders, we get the opportunity to help him live through it. Either way, this has been true for him since the beginning and I don't expect it will change.

[Ajna]

Me too! Not sunshine and rainbows, but maybe thistles and overcast instead of deathroot and tornadoes? I want to believe Solas isn't so dumb as to try and make things 100% how they were before.

 

 

 

 

 

Woo!  Go Team Optimism!  Anybody else out there?

[jellobell]

Well, I think he thinks he's not infantilizing her, but by not giving her the whole story in order to make a truly informed decision, unfortunately he is.  

 

Actions define a man, not his thoughts or feelings.

But we just had a whole conversation about why he can't give her the whole story, for a number of reasons, none of them having to do with her.

[kalasaurus]

Yep. Solas would probably agree with you. Hence the bit about "selfish mistake".

 

I don't agree that he's infantilizing her at all, though. I think he does see her as an equal. That's why he fell in love with her. 

 

That's a good point.  Though, I'd argue that it may be a subconscious urge to protect her from something she may not be able to handle, at the very least.