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[HurricaneGinger]

Terrwyn will not know what else to do other than help rebuild and protect people while the nation is in such a fragile state. People will take advantage, and Terrwyn will at least try to help when she can. That is her main priority. Her second one is doing what she can for her own people - dalish and city elves alike. She allied Celene and Briala, so that's a step forward, but she foresees many complications and yet positives in bringing the elves together to rebuild. She doesn't think Arlathan can be brought back, but she can at least push her people in the right direction - and since she is in a position of distinction and power, she's hoping her word will hold a lot of weight. Terrwyn took a leaf from Mother Giselle's book: you don't need to persuade them all, just doubt. Consider. And then continue pushing until change starts to take. She'll make sure the elves don't sit on the sidelines anymore, even if it's to protect everything they've built. 

 

She also sends out Leliana's scouts to search for Solas now and then, but so far reports have turned up nothing. But she still searches, and always has the scouts carry the same note to him: I told you once before, and yet you ignored me: you do not need to suffer alone. 

 

 

Dude, Solas interprets It's a Wonderful Life, one of the most heartwarming movies ever, as George Bailey's fever dream after committing suicide?!

 

Oh my god. D: Solas...honey...I need to give you a hug right f*cking now.

 

 

My god, he's like the person who comes up with those sad-ass theories about your favorite movies!

 

Land Before Time is about a journey through purgatory into heaven.

Pokemon is Ash in a coma.

Now, It's a Wonderful Life is about the man's dying visions. 

 

I don't know whether to punch him for ruining my childhood or hug him. T_T

[Steppenwolf]

Spoilers ahead:

 

Can the post-credits scene with Solas and Flemeth be influenced by our choices throughout the game or is it always the same? 

For me the scene started with Flemeth at an active Eluvian, being approached by Solas. After they converse about Solas, actually the Dread Wolf, giving Corypheus the Orb because he was too weak to use it himself, they embrace and Flemeth's body appears to die and turn to stone. But then her soul went into Solas' body and he seemed to be possessed.

 

I assume Flemeth and Solas always meet, considering who they both really are, but does Solas always become possessed by her? In my game Flemeth ended up with an Old God's soul and the Dread Wolf's body so it seems like she's going to super powerful...

[Sable Rhapsody]

Spoilers ahead:

 

Can the post-credits scene with Solas and Flemeth be influenced by our choices throughout the game or is it always the same? 

 

Always the same.

[jellobell]

My god, he's like the person who comes up with those sad-ass theories about your favorite movies!

 

Land Before Time is about a journey through purgatory into heaven.

Pokemon is Ash in a coma.

Now, It's a Wonderful Life is about the man's dying visions. 

 

I don't know whether to punch him for ruining my childhood or hug him. T_T

I just...whyyyyyyy. I cannot "D:" enough. "Grim and fatalistic" is right. Holy ****.

 

All I know is that Bioware needs to implement that hug button, stat. JFC, Solas. I feel really glad that my Inquisitor is super-optimistic now. Maybe it'll transfer over to him a bit. Via osmosis.

 

Damn you, Solas, don't you dare ruin my happy endings. I'm going to make you have one whether you like it or not.   God, I need him to have a good ending about a billion times more now.

[Aetheria]

This is a bit out of date at this point, but I've scrounged up some wifi (yay!) and desperately need a sanity check on this.

The first half seems to be one of Cole's trademark movie references to It's A Wonderful Life. That bit is fairly straightforward. (Or at least as straightforward as Cole ever gets.) Like all his movie connections, it's not just a knowing wink at the player, but has a deeper secondary meaning in the context of one of your companions. In this case, Solas.

....though I'm not sure Solas himself picks up on that fact, given the dialogue that follows. If he does, he's even more grim and fatalistic than I gave him credit for, and that would be goddamn heartbreaking.

You're killing me, Weekes.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure everyone here knows the movie, so I won't belabor the connection: moral man with the best intentions, unable to avert a social disaster he feels personally responsible for, helplessness turns into suicidal despair, spirit-guided dream world in which he's shown the world as it would have been without his beneficial influence, ultimate redemption, blah, blah, Solas.

The conversation seems to take a seriously sharp turn right after that, and that's where things get real interesting real fast. I feel like if I could understand the how and why of Cole's segue at that point, I'd be halfway toward grasping exactly how beings like Solas fit in the Fade, but... I lose the thread. I'm missing something.

Anyway, this seems to be a new answer to a key question:

Why do spirits attempt to break into the ‘real’ world?

Before DA:I, I would have said “to feel”, or "to experience”. Sensation requires a physical body after all, as well as a permanent reality with which to interact: neither of which exist on the other side of the veil.

This conversation, however, gives us a different answer. Feeling and living may be a part of it- certainly, sensation seems to function as an anchor of sorts, a touchpoint that stabilizes Cole’s existence on this side, but that's starting to seem distinctly like a means to an end, rather than an end in itself. Taken in tandem with other party banter, these conversations seem to point to spirits’ true desire as gaining the potential to grow. To change. To become something other than what they are.

Because changing is the only way to gain forgiveness and rejoin the Maker.

We know this isn't possible if they remain in the Fade. A spirit in its natural state has only two states of being, both determined by outside influence: either as a direct reflection or becoming twisted by being forced to act against their inherent nature. That is a hard limit. A spirit in the Fade cannot fundamentally change. A Desire demon can never become a Pride demon. It will never grow or adapt. True change, as Cole points out several times, is only possible on this side of the veil.

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around how this all might fit together. Perhaps they were cast out. Perhaps The Maker abandoned them to pass Beyond where they could not follow. All of the options seem to paint a very different picture of the relationship between spirits, the Fade and the Maker than the one I’m accustomed to, and I’m not sure I like it.

Plus, the thought of reality (and secondarily, physical beings like elves) being created as a vehicle for redemption clashes pretty terribly with other "laws" of the fade as we know it. The most critical contradiction is that what we usually refer to as spirits cannot be older than the raising of the veil. Their source is reality. They have no existence apart from it. Solas is pretty clear on that point.

And since, by definition, a reflection cannot predate its source... the whole foundation crumbles.

There is something here- some fundamental and explanatory relationship between "whole" beings like Solas who exist fully in both realms, spirits of the Fade and the races that exist on our side of the veil. My brain just isn't catching on the right piece.

....assuming the pieces aren't entirely illusory to begin with. Sanity check on aisle 2 please? TwT

Oh man! Thanks for pointing out that the reference is to It's A Wonderful Life. Totally wouldn't have connected the dots on that one.

 

So given that, I wonder if, when Cole says "They can only return to the maker if they become real", he's referring to Clarence the angel getting his wings by going to earth to help George? Sort of like... Cole being drawn to leave the Fade to help people in Thedas?

 

WHAT IF, and I'm really going out on a limb here, the "wholeness" that Cole sees in Solas is because he's both a person AND a spirit? In the same way that Flemythal is both the woman Flemeth and the spirit Mythal, but seems to think of herself as a single being? So then, maybe spirits are actually meant to be one with people in some integrated, not-just-possession way (see: Anders, Wynne, etc). Maybe spirits were originally part of people (or just elves, that could be the mysterious thing they're supposed to have lost), and they're constantly trying to get back through the veil to reunite with people in some weird Aristophanes-at-the-symposium kind of way?

 

o_o

[madrar]

Random, poorly thought through addendum:

As much as I love Solas-as-Wisdom, I think I'm officially giving up on my strongest spirits->ancient elves theory. >w< For now, at least.

"Spirits form as a reflection of this world and its passions.”

If we take Solas at his word, then it's a contradiction for pure spirits to have pre-existed either the creation of the veil or of sentient beings on the "reality" side of it. This has a lot of implications, not least of which is that whatever Solas is, he is definitively not, and cannot have ever been, a 'spirit’ as he describes them. He may have been that and more, but at the very least, if we hold that the time when "everything sang the same" is a reference to the pre-veil world, he and Cole are fundamentally different beings. He cannot have been a reflective, reactive spirit that made itself real over time. In theory, the same holds for Mythal and the rest.

If he’d just used the past tense, maybe we could force reconciliation here. Hell, it could even be used as supporting evidence for my earlier nutbag theory that the creation of the veil split “original-state-of-being abominations” into spirits and elves, as the half that inhabited this newly created reality was forced to come to terms with all the drives and sensations that living in a permanent, physical world entails: desire, hunger, fear, and so on.

But infuriatingly, he doesn’t. This suggests the creation of spirits is an ongoing process, which in turn spawns all kinds of problems.

.....I mean, aside from the fact that it's a little bizarre to imagine a tiny spirit of hunger winking into existence five hours after Lavellan’s breakfast, and just as quickly winking out again when Solas brings her a sandwich. =w=

Obviously, it's not quite that simple or direct. Once created, I think a spirit can continue to exist as long as it has a counterpart –somewhere- to reflect in reality. The flip side of this is that no matter how powerful the spirit (or demon) it never gains the ability to sustain itself independently, and requires a direct link to or representation in reality to continue to exist.

There's a really tempting connection to be made here about the Chantry's original goals and their potential to directly effect the Fade, particularly given the hand I think Solas had in shaping the early Andrastean religion, but I'll leave that be for now, since it's pretty far left field at this point.

Anyway, between this and the Dread Wolf/Abyss theory, I think I'm officially off the "Solas was originally a literal wisdom/pride spirit" wagon. TwT Boo. I really liked that one.

[jellobell]

I didn't even know it was possible to be this viscerally sad about a character. I...I think I need to listen to some happy music, guys.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Damn you, Solas, don't you dare ruin my happy endings. I'm going to make you have one whether you like it or not.   God, I need him to have a good ending about a billion times more now.

 

I'd be perfectly fine with my Lavellan grieving over him, maybe working at cross purposes to him, and moving on with her life if I didn't care about Solas's fate.  She's young, bright, and resilient.  It might take a while depending on how badly things go, but I think she'll be fine in the long run.

 

But Solas...this poor guy is so lonely and laboring under such a heavy burden, and Lavellan is one of the few bright spots in his long, tragic life.  For him to lose her too...I can't even 

[RynJ]

I didn't even know it was possible to be this viscerally sad about a character. I...I think I need to listen to some happy music, guys.

 

I feel you. I was never one to find bad boys appealing, but I have this thing about wanting to give love to people who clearly don't have enough of it in their lives.

 

Solas is very much one of those people. I think half the reason I haven't been able to get into playing a different Inquisitor who romances someone else is knowing that Solas is left alone in those playthroughs! I felt the same about having Fenris as my Hawke's canon romance. I just didn't like the thought of him being alone!

[Steppenwolf]

Always the same.

Hmm. That's kind of disappointing. Though I have seen that a lot of people seem to interpret the scene differently than I did, seeing it Solas perhaps killing Flemeth and stealing her power.

Do we think any DLC will touch on this?

[Sable Rhapsody]

Do we think any DLC will touch on this?

 

We can always hope.  And tweet.  And maybe perform a few sacrifices to the BioWare devs 

[madrar]

You know, I would love to be in a party with Merrill and Solas. I think they would have some really interesting banter, and they might even agree with each other. Merrill is Dalish, yes, but she seems to care more about preserving Elven culture than being 'Dalish.' She's willing to put everything at risk to learn more, and she's a kind, free spirit to boot. Solas even says that he's amenable to blood magic, as long as it's put to good purposes.

But who knows? Merrill might be defensive of her clan, even though they cast her out. Maybe she'd be resistant to the idea that the elven forefathers were less than perfect. And Solas certainly has an "edge" to him that Merill lacks. She might think him cold. He might think her foolish. (I certainly did the first time through DA2.) But you'd think that if anyone could sympathize with Merrill, it would be him. I dunno. It's just interesting to think about.

Yikes. I'm not so sure. I think Merrill would drive Solas batshit insane. She's so much a raw mirror of his younger self: combative, prideful, stubborn as hell, idealistic to the point of being dangerously naïve. I think he has plenty of self-hatred left over from those days, and though even though he'd be fully aware of its real source, I'm not sure he'd be able to keep it from it turning outward.

Particularly if she was as resistant to being questioned as I remember her being. =w=

Fireworks, and not in a good way.

[couslandia]

Hmm. That's kind of disappointing. Though I have seen that a lot of people seem to interpret the scene differently than I did, seeing it Solas perhaps killing Flemeth and stealing her power.

Do we think any DLC will touch on this?

 

I mean... they had BETTER, that's all I'm sayin'. 

[Aetheria]

I assume Flemeth and Solas always meet, considering who they both really are, but does Solas always become possessed by her? In my game Flemeth ended up with an Old God's soul and the Dread Wolf's body so it seems like she's going to super powerful...

There seems to be a lot of speculation about what exactly is going on there. A lot of people interpret it as Solas stealing something from Flemeth, or conversely Flemeth/Mythal switching into Solas' body.

 

I'm pretty sure it's intentionally ambiguous, but I've been leaning more towards the latter - just based on the way things play out, as well as the fact that Flemeth has the last line and when she says "I am sorry as well" it's not clear what she would be apologizing for, if not the surprise takeover.

[jellobell]

Also, I don't think the It's a Wonderful Life banter and the banter about spirits and the Maker are connected. I got the second one on its own. If you just listen to all the banter in the banter video it squishes them all together.

 

I...I really need to ask PW if that was an IAWL reference. Because goddamnit ow. It's nearly Christmas, too. ;___; Aaargh.

[Aetheria]

Also, I don't think the It's a Wonderful Life banter and the banter about spirits and the Maker are connected. I got the second one on its own. If you just listen to all the banter in the banter video it squishes them all together.

 

I...I really need to ask PW if that was an IAWL reference. Because goddamnit ow. It's nearly Christmas, too. ;___; Aaargh.

rekt.

 

Oh well, next theory!

[madrar]

Oh man! Thanks for pointing out that the reference is to It's A Wonderful Life. Totally wouldn't have connected the dots on that one.
 
So given that, I wonder if, when Cole says "They can only return to the maker if they become real", he's referring to Clarence the angel getting his wings by going to earth to help George? Sort of like... Cole being drawn to leave the Fade to help people in Thedas?
 
WHAT IF, and I'm really going out on a limb here, the "wholeness" that Cole sees in Solas is because he's both a person AND a spirit? In the same way that Flemythal is both the woman Flemeth and the spirit Mythal, but seems to think of herself as a single being? So then, maybe spirits are actually meant to be one with people in some integrated, not-just-possession way (see: Anders, Wynne, etc). Maybe spirits were originally part of people (or just elves, that could be the mysterious thing they're supposed to have lost), and they're constantly trying to get back through the veil to reunite with people in some weird Aristophanes-at-the-symposium kind of way?
 
o_o

Don't worry, you have company. ^w^ I've been hanging out on the "abominations as the original pre-veil state of being" limb for a while, but there are a crap ton of loose threads and unanswered questions to reconcile to make it all fit. That early banter with Cole suggests pretty directly that Solas exists fully in both the real world and the Fade. He is, I think, "complete" in a way that no one else is. (See the random thoughts post above) Flemyth's current state and reliance on dark ritual / daughters seems like an indication that there is something fundamentally different and unworkable about humans.

As an aside for the lore keepers: have we ever encountered a Dalish abomination?

[madrar]

Oh man! Thanks for pointing out that the reference is to It's A Wonderful Life. Totally wouldn't have connected the dots on that one.
 
So given that, I wonder if, when Cole says "They can only return to the maker if they become real", he's referring to Clarence the angel getting his wings by going to earth to help George? Sort of like... Cole being drawn to leave the Fade to help people in Thedas?

*slaps a hand to her forehead*

Of course you're right- that's exactly the reference, and it fits like a glove. Now, whether it's literal....

[jellobell]

*slaps a hand to her forehead*

Of course you're right- that's exactly the reference, and it fits like a glove. Now, whether it's literal....

Was the banter connected for you? I got the Maker part on its own in my game, even though they come one after the other in the banter video, I think they're just two separate banters.

[Aetheria]

As an aside for the lore keepers: have we ever encountered a Dalish abomination?

Does Marethari + pride demon in Merrill's DA2 personal quest count? That's the only example I can think of.

[Birdy]

Lol. This is cute.  XD

http://hawkesenpai.t...times-a-day-and

[cowoline]

Sorry to be late to the party, but I was busy yesterday

About 20 pages ago there was a discussion concerning immortal/mortal relationship and how it might play out for Lavellan and Solas. Most people assume Solas is immortal, which honestly I think makes perfect sense seeing as he's, ya know, Fen'harel and all, but what I've not seen anyone bring up is: If he's immortal, why would his greatest fear be dying alone?

If he's immortal... he can't die (naturally), so wouldn't his fear then be "living alone" or perhaps something more like "never being understood"? Maybe this is a clue that he's not really immortal.

Of course there is the possibility "dying alone" is meant figuratively, like maybe the day he chooses to enter uthenera for the last time, or he could just mean "if I get killed somehow", but I just don't see it that way. When someone's fear is dying alone, it means dying is a real possibility, and that you are afraid you won't have time to make lasting connections or find love. So, yeah, it just seems weird to me that an immortal's fear would be about dying alone (and not just "death").


Also this is totally random and not related to Solas, but have you guys found the hut in Redcliffe where it's revealed that the Oculara are created by the Tevinter using Tranquil skulls? I just found it for the first time today and was like omg that is seriously f'ed up. Makes me not want to use them anymore but I gotta get the completes

I was thinking somethimg different. I think he is afraid of dying as the last of his people. Dying alone might just be the non spoiler way of saying "Be the last of his kind". He is anything but thrilled about the dalish and he sees them as a failure. He is the last - not counting Mythal - and we know that he did something he regretted. And though the original elves did not die of old age they could still be killed.

so dying alone noone would remember the truth about Fen Harel or who he truly was. He would die leaving nothing behind but his failure and a grave misinterpretation of who he is and what he did.

[madrar]

I didn't even know it was possible to be this viscerally sad about a character. I...I think I need to listen to some happy music, guys.

It took me a while to get the scotch bonnet candy thing, but I'm right there with you.

Player: "ooh! Intellectual LI candy!"
(*pops it in mouth*)
Player: "I HAVE NEVER BEEN IN SO MUCH PAIN MAKE IT STOP"

If there's any chance the creator gods are listening... Please. Please, please, please.

We beg mercy on behalf
Of Solas, Your creation.
Do not abandon him to walk in darkness alone
But light a path to redemption
And well earned rest
At the side of those who love him.

For Yours is the power
Of Life and Death
Joy and Grief
On this side of the veil
As well as the Other.

So let it be. TwT

[Birdy]

Does Marethari + pride demon in Merrill's DA2 personal quest count? That's the only example I can think of.

We don't encounter the Dalish much to see it.  But doesn't one of the things someone say is the clan is responsible for killing the First or Keeper if they become possessed. So they'll either all die or kill their Keeper, either way we wouldn't encounter it unless it's very bad timing on the heroes part.

 

And what about the Lady of the Forest and Zathrian, he bound himself to a spirit?

[Eivuwan]

There seems to be a lot of speculation about what exactly is going on there. A lot of people interpret it as Solas stealing something from Flemeth, or conversely Flemeth/Mythal switching into Solas' body.

 

I'm pretty sure it's intentionally ambiguous, but I've been leaning more towards the latter - just based on the way things play out, as well as the fact that Flemeth has the last line and when she says "I am sorry as well" it's not clear what she would be apologizing for, if not the surprise takeover.

 

I think Flemeth was sorry that Solas had to walk a difficult and lonely path.