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[herkles]

I have found this landmark in Emprise and found it intresting considering who solas is. 

 

[Tai]

I have been trying to understand the ookey factor of this relationship and I think you nailed it. The writing is so lean we don't see the in between moments so the player has to make **** up in their head. If you don't you're left with this supremely unbalanced mess of a relationship. I genuinely do no think that was the intent as that's just...wrong but it it tiptoes right up to that line. From moment to moment the relationship is lovely. There a reason I'm talking about it, but I wish I had more to fill in the blanks with.

 

That's a good point. The writing does leave a lot of room for projection on our part.

 

I think what really bothers me is that his actions can be seen like this: What better way to get someone to fall head over heels for you than to initially resist, then cave? It makes them feel oh so special that you can't resist them. Say as little truth about yourself as possible, because that lets your partner fill in the blanks with what they most want to believe. Meanwhile you get what you want, whatever that may be, out of the relationship and when the time comes that the perceived obligations may outweigh the pleasure, dump them. You did warn them, after all. If they chose not to listen, well, it's not your responsibility and perhaps this will be a learning experience. Classic trickster.

[Ajna]

He's not a "classic trickster" though is he, apparently he's not even a trickster at all.

[Tai]

He's not a "classic trickster" though is he, apparently he's not even a trickster at all.

 

Not sure what you are referencing that shows this? Everything I've seen indicates he is. 

[Ajna]

The mis-translation.

[drake2511]

He's not a "classic trickster" though is he, apparently he's not even a trickster at all.

That's right. God of rebellion.

And while I wish we had more scenes with him, I don't feel like all they have is a "supremely unbalanced mess of a relationship". Sure, it's not the most healthy relationship (he's the dread wolf, duh!) but he respects her as an equal.

Edit: all the typos, sorry

[electricfish]

If I recall, it's somewhat implied (in Mythal's Temple, I think) that Fen'Harel is less a "trickster" and more "rebellious." The trickster label was applied after The Bad Thing happened, prior to the Tevinter Imperium kicking ancient elven butt. The Dalish refer to him as trickster because they believe he did something terrible on purpose, but that's not really what's implied as we learn more about actual elven lore and from Solas and Flemeth.

Fen'Harel probably did something terrible with the intent for it to be good (saving The People in general, or the elven pantheon specifically from whoever was murdering them). We'll have to separate Dalish lore from "actual" lore in order to be more accurate about what Solas actually is, and his motivations.

[wildannie]

Tricksters are legends and appear in oral traditions everywhere.  Solas is a person who has lived for long enough to have his deeds evolve into trickster oral traditions.  I don't think he's actually a trickster, I think he's just a guy with great power, who happens to have made a couple of huge mistakes.  It wouldn't surprise me that the only truth in stories about him is in the imprisoning the pantheon, the rest are probably other oral traditions which over time have been attributed to him.

[caridounette]

That's a good point. The writing does leave a lot of room for projection on our part.

 

I think what really bothers me is that his actions can be seen like this: What better way to get someone to fall head over heels for you than to initially resist, then cave? It makes them feel oh so special that you can't resist them. Say as little truth about yourself as possible, because that lets your partner fill in the blanks with what they most want to believe. Meanwhile you get what you want, whatever that may be, out of the relationship and when the time comes that the perceived obligations may outweigh the pleasure, dump them. You did warn them, after all. If they chose not to listen, well, it's not your responsibility and perhaps this will be a learning experience. Classic trickster.

 

That is Solas tragedy in a nutshell. Is he or is he not a trickster? Hes been made out as one because of his actions more then because of his intentions it seems to me (we could go in details here about FenHarel, about the necessity of conceling his identity and so on if we want to).

 

That brings us to the philosophical gem of a question: 'what matters more: your intentions, your actions, or what people perceive of them and will remember them for?'

[Tai]

Tricksters are legends and appear in oral traditions everywhere.  Solas is a person who has lived for long enough to have his deeds evolve into trickster oral traditions.  I don't think he's actually a trickster, I think he's just a guy with great power, who happens to have made a couple of huge mistakes.  It wouldn't surprise me that the only truth in stories about him is in the imprisoning the pantheon, the rest are probably other oral traditions which over time have been attributed to him.

 

Being a god of rebellion does not add up to not being a trickster, but that is my interpretation. The motives for the things Fen'Harel has done may have gotten twisted over time, and he may have been held responsible for things he didn't do, but to me that does not mean he is regarded as a trickster in error. YMMV.

[BoscoBread]

That's a good point. The writing does leave a lot of room for projection on our part.
 
I think what really bothers me is that his actions can be seen like this: What better way to get someone to fall head over heels for you than to initially resist, then cave? It makes them feel oh so special that you can't resist them. Say as little truth about yourself as possible, because that lets your partner fill in the blanks with what they most want to believe. Meanwhile you get what you want, whatever that may be, out of the relationship and when the time comes that the perceived obligations may outweigh the pleasure, dump them. You did warn them, after all. If they chose not to listen, well, it's not your responsibility and perhaps this will be a learning experience. Classic trickster.

I do believe he is geniunely into lavellan. That I think was the intent. Bioware would have a **** storm on their hands if it was revealed 'haha ****** just playin'". It would be grotesque. I wish there was more to see than passionate kissie time though. I've said it before on here, I don't think he's a liar. He just doesn't reveal his full hand. When he says 'I love you'. I believe that he really does. I did like playing a human noble with him though. There is a lot more telling dialog if you are best buddies with him. Like at the end, The pc can sense something more is wrong beyond the orb. It adds some dimension to his character. Ugh...he's criminally underwritten.

[Minxie]

Tricksters are legends and appear in oral traditions everywhere.  Solas is a person who has lived for long enough to have his deeds evolve into trickster oral traditions.  I don't think he's actually a trickster, I think he's just a guy with great power, who happens to have made a couple of huge mistakes.  It wouldn't surprise me that the only truth in stories about him is in the imprisoning the pantheon, the rest are probably other oral traditions which over time have been attributed to him.

I think so too. A lot of people are like "he was called the Trickster/Dread Wolf for a reason!" suggesting something inherent in his nature but I'm not sure that he just simply became that to the People when they were trying to assign motives or understand what he did in the tales told about him. It seems like the legends have also wrongfully attributed characteristics to other members of the pantheon like Andruil and Mythal.  

[scintilla]

Well, it's clear that we all bring our own values and real life personalities into the characters we play. In general, I have issues with people who don't consider the multiple reasons why someone might behave a certain way and some people might have issues with arrogant know-it-alls.

 

Edit: I must say that I have trouble role-playing as how an actual citizen of Thedas thinks or what a Dalish woman would think. That is mainly due to the lack of an origins story to play through like we had with DAO. To me, I'm just from a random race that I would like to play and I'm the inquisitor who has to make difficult decisions (and collect shards). A lot of people were talking about how a Dalish elf would or would not remove the valaslin and I'm just like I'll remove it because I feel like removing a tattoo and because I want to see Solas work his magic.

 

There are lots of ways to play, whether the player is role playing or playing a self insert. There isn't a right way to go about it and no one is wrong for doing things differently than someone else, regardless of their reasons.

[electricfish]

Maybe it's more like a half truth. If Fen'Harel was the rebellious one, I could still see him being twisted to being the trickster by virtue of his actions 1000 years ago. If he cared about the rest of the elven pantheon, interacted (mostly) positively and protected truths if others tried to cover the lie, how could he not be seen as the Dread Wolf who tricked The People into believing he cared for them when he made The Huge Mistake and caused all that he knew to go to ****?

[SamanthaJ]

I think that stories of Fen'Harel's trickster-ness have been exaggerated by the Dalish, making him out to be the bogeyman. However, I image he does have some trickster in him. Felassan seemed to know him pretty well, after all, and told fables of him where he did appear as more of a trickster figure. Maybe they're true, or maybe they were made up because it would annoy Solas. Who can really know? I think, if he is indeed a trickster, that it was more of a prominent thing in his youth. I can't see the current Solas doing something as dick-y as tell a young man to "Kill the other king's daughter" if he wants to see the girl he fell for at first sight again or leave an entire village except the children to die. Then again maybe the noble and the villagers were assholes and he didn't do it to be dick-y (supposing Felassan's stories are true).

[drake2511]

I think that stories of Fen'Harel's trickster-ness have been exaggerated by the Dalish, making him out to be the bogeyman. However, I image he does have some trickster in him. Felassan seemed to know him pretty well, after all, and told fables of him where he did appear as more of a trickster figure. Maybe they're true, or maybe they were made up because it would annoy Solas. Who can really know? I think, if he is indeed a trickster, that it was more of a prominent thing in his youth. I can't see the current Solas doing something as dick-y as tell a young man to "Kill the other king's daughter" if he wants to see the girl he fell for at first sight again or leave an entire village except the children to die. Then again maybe the noble and the villagers were assholes and he didn't do it to be dick-y (supposing Felassan's stories are true).

I really need to read TME.

[electricfish]

All right, here's something I just thought of in relation to what the Dalish say about Fen'Harel. In the old stories, he is able to walk among both the elven gods and whatever "the other ones" are. Presumably that means evil opposites, or maybe demons, but what if it related more to the darker personality aspects of the elven pantheon? Andruil and her madness when traveling to The Void (physically in the Fade maybe?), Mythal and her justice/revenge, or Dirthamen and his lust for adulation causing wars.

 

Fen'Harel the Rebellious could interact with both sides of their personalities because he can empathize/sympathize with them. He appreciates courtly intrigue and can identify with both the positive and negative aspects of being immersed in it. The man has had practice, and where better to practice than in the courts of the gods who can be both terrible and benevolent?

[caridounette]

I think so too. A lot of people are like "he was called the Trickster/Dread Wolf for a reason!" suggesting something inherent in his nature but I'm not sure that he just simply became that to the People when they were trying to assign motives or understand what he did in the tales told about him. It seems like the legends have also wrongfully attributed characteristics to other members of the pantheon like Andruil and Mythal.  

 

I might not think that tricking others is his nature, but I think its also good not to close our eyes on the fact that it is something he does. Maybe not because he wants to, more because he feels he needs to, but it is still part of his way to interact with the world.

 

The first thing he will say at Heaven to Inquisitors who say they dont want to be heroes is that posturing is necessary. He might have resigned himself to that from past experience. It might be the most logical thing to to from his viewpoint. But it still is the path he chose and will defend it.

 

Edit: It could have been worst too. He might have chosen to rule over everyone like Cory  Concealing and posturing might not be the worst things a god can do. 

[SamanthaJ]

I really need to read TME.

If you want to read Felassan's stories they're in Fen'Harel's page in the DA wiki. 

[Eivuwan]

There are lots of ways to play, whether the player is role playing or playing a self insert. There isn't a right way to go about it and no one is wrong for doing things differently than someone else, regardless of their reasons.

 

I didn't mean to imply that there's a right or wrong way to go about it. I am just explaining my reasons for how I play it. I clearly feel strongly about it. That's all.

[electricfish]

<snip>

 

 

You have a good point. He does mention that in his youth he was hot-blooded and cocky. Cocky teenage boys do like to play pranks of varying degrees. It doesn't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive that he was either rebellious or a trickster, but maybe one aspect was more prevalent over the other at different times. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that he has his darker aspects and his lighter aspects like the other elven gods. 

 

I haven't read any of the books to support it, but would the trickster aspect be more like his darker image? Rebelliousness can mean nasty intentions too, but normally it's represented as a more positive force (i.e. against a tyrant or oppression).

[Tai]

 

I haven't read any of the books to support it, but would the trickster aspect be more like his darker image? Rebelliousness can mean nasty intentions too, but normally it's represented as a more positive force (i.e. against a tyrant or oppression).

 

Unless you're a parent raising teenagers!!

 

I like your thinking on those qualities representing different aspects of the Dread Wolf.

[Uirebhiril]

I think that stories of Fen'Harel's trickster-ness have been exaggerated by the Dalish, making him out to be the bogeyman. However, I image he does have some trickster in him. Felassan seemed to know him pretty well, after all, and told fables of him where he did appear as more of a trickster figure. Maybe they're true, or maybe they were made up because it would annoy Solas. Who can really know? I think, if he is indeed a trickster, that it was more of a prominent thing in his youth. I can't see the current Solas doing something as dick-y as tell a young man to "Kill the other king's daughter" if he wants to see the girl he fell for at first sight again or leave an entire village except the children to die. Then again maybe the noble and the villagers were assholes and he didn't do it to be dick-y (supposing Felassan's stories are true).

 

I always took them to be more of a parable type thing than an actual retelling of a true story. That or something really got changed up in the translation over the years.

[AWTEW]

I so wanted Solas to be there on the balcony waiting for her after the party. Or maybe she goes to sleep and he's in her dreams.  But Noooooooooo!!!!

I know, I was expecting an end scene, of them being in the fade. but nooo..we got nothing.

[Lorien19]

I think that stories of Fen'Harel's trickster-ness have been exaggerated by the Dalish, making him out to be the bogeyman. However, I image he does have some trickster in him. Felassan seemed to know him pretty well, after all, and told fables of him where he did appear as more of a trickster figure. Maybe they're true, or maybe they were made up because it would annoy Solas. Who can really know? I think, if he is indeed a trickster, that it was more of a prominent thing in his youth. I can't see the current Solas doing something as dick-y as tell a young man to "Kill the other king's daughter" if he wants to see the girl he fell for at first sight again or leave an entire village except the children to die. Then again maybe the noble and the villagers were assholes and he didn't do it to be dick-y (supposing Felassan's stories are true).

Most certainlyou!Personally,I believe that Fen'harel was probably noted for his intelligence and for outwitting the other gods,but he also seems like the kind of "deity" that doesn't interfere directly with the events yet maintains a crucial role in the background.These are qualities usually attributed to tricksters,considering that Dalish history is mostly a collection of legends and stories,it's no wonder he'd be portrayed in that manner.