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[Cheese of Borg]

Well I just woke up, aaaand I'm here again.  What have you done to me Solas?

[madrar]

I am under the impression that every Creator has/had a Well.

 

If Andraste is the "bride of the Maker" and the Maker is Elgar'nan (sun symbol and all), well, maybe the Chant is nothing but propaganda for his slaves?

 

I'm on board.  Mythal is generally associated with water: in myth, she rises from the ocean of the Earth's tears, she stores her servants' memories in a well, Flemyth chooses to live in a swamp, her "area" in the Exalted Plains (formed when subjects from the original elvish nations came together) is also a swamp, etc, etc.  

 

Given that, there's no question in my mind that Andraste's original message has been seriously warped in the Chant as we know it, and those changes 1) have the fingerprints of an opposing philosophy all over them, and 2) are strongly associated with fire / the Sun.  

 

Whether there's a direct line to Elgar'nan... I'm not sure yet.  It's certainly tempting, but I go around in circles with theories about Elgar'nan, the Blight, and his relationship to the Sun.  My hunch at this point, is that the Sun may literally be another entity, as distinct from the elvish Pantheon as the Stone is, and is likely the source of blight.  If the apparently cyclical husband-wife-lover motif has an origin in their relationship, then Mythal, Fen'Harel, and Elgar'nan would once have been allied before Elgar'nan betrayed them at a critical juncture, possibly resulting in the murder of Mythal. (Not that I'm entirely ruling out the Sun from being Elgar'nan, as the dalish "Sun" could just as easily be a metaphorical aspect of his nature given form to externalize internal conflict or a real and distinct entity. All of this is very vague and raw- nothing more than a gut feeling that hasn't been thought through yet.)

 

Anyway, the important bit is how bizarrely schizophrenic the text of the Chant is.  Passages exalting free will and compassion are crammed in with those of submission and absolute obedience to the Will of the Maker.  A good part of it is just useless human flotsam tacked on at the end, but at the core it's as if there are two voices, one of which gets fainter and fainter over time.

 

Compare the shift in tone from Transfigurations 1:

Spoiler

These truths the Maker has revealed to me:

As there is but one world, 

One life, one death, there is 

But one god, and He is our Maker.

They are sinners, who have given their love

To false gods.

 

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him. 

Foul and corrupt are they

Who have taken His gift

And turned it against His children.

They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.

They shall find no rest in this world

Or beyond.

 

All men are the Work of our Maker's Hands,

From the lowest slaves

To the highest kings.

Those who bring harm

Without provocation to the least of His children

Are hated and accursed by the Maker. 

 

Those who bear false witness

And work to deceive others, know this:

There is but one Truth.

All things are known to our Maker

And He shall judge their lies.

 

All things in this world are finite.

What one man gains, another has lost.

Those who steal from their brothers and sisters

Do harm to their livelihood and to their peace of mind.

Our Maker sees this with a heavy heart.

to Transfigurations 12:

 

Spoiler

O Creator, see me kneel:

For I walk only where You would bid me 

Stand only in places You have blessed

Sing only the words You place in my throat 

 

My Maker, know my heart:

Take from me a life of sorrow 

Lift me from a world of pain

Judge me worthy of Your endless pride 

 

My Creator, judge me whole:

Find me well within Your grace 

Touch me with fire that I be cleansed

Tell me I have sung to Your approval 

 

O Maker, hear my cry:

Seat me by Your side in death 

Make me one within Your glory

And let the world once more see Your favor 

 

For You are the fire at the heart of the world

And comfort is only Yours to give.

 

The older passages (it's a pretty solid assumption the numbers are temporally linear, text added over time) reflect what you might expect if Solas and Mythal were to sit down and puzzle out a guide to creating a functional society that side-stepped the pitfalls they knew all too well.  Ignore whether the Maker actually exists- He loves you, He doesn't want you to worship ruler-gods, He doesn't want you to use magic to hurt or dominate others, and for pity's sake just be nice to each other.  

 

The later ones?  Obey.  Obey.  Obey.   Obey the fire at the heart of the world.  It's a particularly interesting description of the Maker, both in light of the Dalish tale of Elgar'nan throwing the Sun down into the Abyss, as well as the current location of what may be the source of the Blight, trapped in an eluvian in Arlathan, currently at the center of the world.  As always, irritatingly, it could be a reference to either.  Or both.  *shakes fist at Gaider*

 

Anyway.  The solid takeaway here is this:  there is strong evidence that an entity that is not Solas / Mythal is both able to affect the mortal realm through the minds of men, is awake/aware enough to do so, and by all indications, its objectives and the future it desires for the mortal world lie in absolute opposition to theirs. This isn't new.   Twisting mortal faith to its own ends seems to be a favorite trick, as this is almost certainly the same entity who spoke to the priests of ancient Minrathous as "Dumat", driving them toward the City to be infected.  Extrapolating from the text, what it desires is obedience, the absolute submission of sentient beings to its will.

 

This fits, of course, uncomfortably well with blight and the hive mind of Blighted creatures. (Corypheus' control over the blight is little more than an illusion, allowed because he furthers a purpose.  I have no doubt he's as bound to its source as tightly as drinking from the Well of Sorrows binds one to Mythal.)  We're no closer to knowing exactly what blight is - a biological weapon, designed to bring the world back under control?   A divergent counter-melody to the original Song of creation?   All of the above, somehow?  None of it?   Regardless, I think these clues in the Chant get us slightly closer to who its true master might be, and what He aims to accomplish with it.  

 

^{_{*god, I hope the forum admins don't have a nutbag-theory drinking game.  someone's taking a taxi home tonight...*}}

[Avejajed]

K drake the fic was hilarous.

Favorite part:

VARRIC WHEN DID YOU GET HERE

[Maria13]

Can I make people jealous?

 

My husband of 25 years is Welsh and his voice/accent is very similar to Solas'. 

 

Cymru am byth!

 

... or so I am told.

[Illyria]

Oh hey, they posted the thing!

 

 

At the moment I have Mythal because it's the prettiest.  But this will come in handy when I re-roll this Lavellan again.

 

Oh, who am I kidding?  I'm just going to go with Mythal again.  I think it fits with her being the First.  Might go Andruil if I roll a rogue at some point.  I'll.. probably get Solas to remove them.

[Avejajed]

Can I make people jealous?

My husband of 25 years is Welsh and his voice/accent is very similar to Solas'.

Cymru am byth!

... or so I am told.

I think you should make him read some sort of appropriate fanfic and record it. Clearly.

[Kittn]

I think they redesigned most/all of them between the games, so we can't be sure... 

 

I think Tamlen's looks kinda similar to Falon'Din's. It has the same central "stalk" with branches coming off it!

 

The way Zathrien's lines curl and stuff makes me think of Elgar'nan. There's also his whole vengeance thing. I'm thinking it's probable that every clan has different overall designs, but with similar elements? Lanaya's for example:

Spoiler

 

Appears to be June? But it isn't exactly the same. So what we have in DAI may just be the clan Lavellan stencil set. Makes me wonder what Vallaslin Merrill has. Hers doesn't really look like any of these.

[k_drake]

Can I make people jealous?

 

My husband of 25 years is Welsh and his voice/accent is very similar to Solas'. 

 

Cymru am byth!

 

... or so I am told.

Oof, you lucky duck, I was just contemplating how I could convince my partner to learn to adopt a convincing Welsh accent... *fans self* 

[Illyria]

Theory time!

 

- June is the god of crafts and supposedly taught the elves to make bows and knives

 

- The arulin'holm in DA2 is supposedly an ancient knife with magical powers that dates back to Arlathan

 

- There's some kind of ominous twist to all the elven gods

 

- We're pretty sure he's some kind of silent killer

 

- Ergo, June is the inventor of the original MURDERKNIFE

 

Be afraid. Be very afraid.

 

Where did this 'June is secretly the evilest god' thing start?  In fact, when did the June-mocking start?

[SamanthaJ]

Some said that the symbol by Fen'Harel's statues/ in Valammari looked like Kirkwall's heraldry....Interesting...

 

This stylized knot work representation of a dragon evolved from a symbol of rebellion etched into countless walls during the time when Kirkwall was a center for the Tevinter slave trade. It was an image that catalyzed the slaves who overthrew the ruling magisters, and while the symbol has changed, its meaning has not: Kirkwall is a city unto itself, beholden to no one

 

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Kirkwall

[k_drake]

The way Zathrien's lines curl and stuff makes me think of Elgar'nan. There's also his whole vengeance thing. I'm thinking it's probable that every clan has different overall designs, but with similar elements? Lanaya's for example:

Spoiler

 

Appears to be June? But it isn't exactly the same. So what we have in DAI may just be the clan Lavellan stencil set. Makes me wonder what Vallaslin Merrill has. Hers doesn't really look like any of these.

Merrill's sort of looks like June too, to my eye.  A bit of a stretch, but could also be Sylaise?  I would imagine that this sort of thing could easily vary from clan to clan, though, especially as over time vallaslin artists added and subtracted elements in order to suit their tastes.

[Avejajed]

Where did this 'June is secretly the evilest god' thing start? In fact, when did the June-mocking start?

It stemmed from the we don't know a goddamn thing so we are hilariously making things up.

It may or may not be plausible but it is hilarious.

June=Sandal.

[Mims]

Where did this 'June is secretly the evilest god' thing start?  In fact, when did the June-mocking start?

 

Mostly due to the lack of information about him, and the speculation by an in-game scholar that he might have been made up by the Dalish. [Or the Dalish completely forgot about him and his original purpose.] 

 

Edit: I should note, I don't think anyone here actually thinks he's the ultimate bad of the pantheon or anything. Its just become a running joke. 

[k_drake]

Some said that the symbol by Fen'Harel's statues/ in Valammari looked like Kirkwall's heraldry....Interesting...

 

This stylized knot work representation of a dragon evolved from a symbol of rebellion etched into countless walls during the time when Kirkwall was a center for the Tevinter slave trade. It was an image that catalyzed the slaves who overthrew the ruling magisters, and while the symbol has changed, its meaning has not: Kirkwall is a city unto itself, beholden to no one

 

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Kirkwall

OHOHOHOHO.  And if we figure that most Tevinter symbols originated as Elven/most slaves were elves....

[Illyria]

While the subject of vallaslin is still fairly fresh in our minds... is my Female Lavellan the only one who opted not to let Solas remove hers? 

 

I'm not disparaging anyone that chose to agree, it just seems that people chose "yes" more often than not and now I'm wondering if I'm an odd duck?

 

I imagine that while my Lavellan knows the Dalish are flawed and often mistaken, she still feels very loyal to them and believes in their cause. Since the devs took forever to reveal which vallaslin represents which deity, I had to headcanon why she picked hers, and came up with layers upon layers of symbolic reasons that honored different aspects of her heritage, family, values, and life (not just the deity). So, when Solas reveals that the vallaslin were originally slave markings, her reaction was basically, "Whatever they were used for in the past, the Dalish have reclaimed them, and this is what they mean to us now." When he offered to remove hers, she just couldn't let him do it because she felt they had become part of her (whatever their original purpose) and just couldn't let him remove what had become such a huge part of her personal and cultural identity.

 

So, what'd you choose and why?

 

My mage Lavellan chose not to.  Whatever they meant in the past they mean something different now.

[Avejajed]

Solas and Fenris should have coffee sometime.

[Mims]

Some said that the symbol by Fen'Harel's statues/ in Valammari looked like Kirkwall's heraldry....Interesting...

 

This stylized knot work representation of a dragon evolved from a symbol of rebellion etched into countless walls during the time when Kirkwall was a center for the Tevinter slave trade. It was an image that catalyzed the slaves who overthrew the ruling magisters, and while the symbol has changed, its meaning has not: Kirkwall is a city unto itself, beholden to no one

 

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Kirkwall

 

Ooh. Wow. That's a nice find. 

[Abyss108]

The way Zathrien's lines curl and stuff makes me think of Elgar'nan. There's also his whole vengeance thing. I'm thinking it's probable that every clan has different overall designs, but with similar elements? Lanaya's for example:

Spoiler

 

Appears to be June? But it isn't exactly the same. So what we have in DAI may just be the clan Lavellan stencil set. Makes me wonder what Vallaslin Merrill has. Hers doesn't really look like any of these.

 

Yep, definitely looks like June!

 

There's quite a few with similar curls in them. I vote Falon'Din because of the stalk, but it could be any of the "curly" ones!

 

Some said that the symbol by Fen'Harel's statues/ in Valammari looked like Kirkwall's heraldry....Interesting...

 

This stylized knot work representation of a dragon evolved from a symbol of rebellion etched into countless walls during the time when Kirkwall was a center for the Tevinter slave trade. It was an image that catalyzed the slaves who overthrew the ruling magisters, and while the symbol has changed, its meaning has not: Kirkwall is a city unto itself, beholden to no one

 

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Kirkwall

 

Ooooooooh, great find!   The Tevinter slaves were mainly Elvhen right? Interesting that it's supposed to be a dragon (Mythal...). I'm thinking Fen'Harel and Mythal are more closely related than the myths make out...

[Avejajed]

Ooh. Wow. That's a nice find.

The devil developers I think must really like cross referencing.

1: hahah let's put Fen'Harel's symbol all over Kirkwall. That'll really screw with people in a few years.
2. Ikr! What if we made Andraste like suspiciously like Mythal who is actually flemmth. This will drive everyone cray. Hahaha.

[Aetheria]

It stemmed from the we don't know a goddamn thing so we are hilariously making things up.

It may or may not be plausible but it is hilarious.

June=Sandal.

Because Sandal enchants things. Like weapons. Like magic knives that appear from nowhere to murderize you when you least expect it.

[OxidantsHappen]

Because Sandal enchants things. Like weapons. Like magic knives that appear from nowhere to murderize you when you least expect it.

 

The one game where Sandal is absent, there are no murder knife options. Coincidence? I think not.

[madrar]

If the temple was a place of power, and Andraste's Ashes were stored there, was it the Ashes that were magical so they could cure Arl Eamon, or was it the place they were stored infusing the ashes through some kind of burned blood magic ritual or something?

 

Or was it because Andraste was possessed by Mythal, and so it was really the power of Mythal that saved Arl Eamon, and then is there still significance to them being in the Temple of Sacred Ashes....

 

 

OR....what about the Knight/Monk who allegedly brought the ashes there?  What if that story is false, and it was Solas, who knew Andraste was possessed by Mythal, who brough her ashes to a sacred place to rest?  Or was he asleep then, since he is supposed to have been a sleep for a long damn time...

 

And if you defiled the ashes does that mean you basically told Mythal to go F*** herself?  

 

And did the ashes of Andraste have anything to do with how Mythal got into Flemeth?  

 

*brain breaks*

 

First, it's possible, if not likely, that the ToSA was a place of power because it was sitting on a metric crap-ton of incredibly pure lyrium.  Or maybe the reverse.  There's kind of chicken-and-egg thing with lyrium, magic, and the veil, but lets leave it at that for now.

 

Leliana: "I never dreamed I would ever lay my eyes on the Urn of Sacred Ashes... I... I have no words to express--"

Oghren: "Don't get your knickers in a twist, sweet cheeks. I don't know how mystical this Urn really is.  The lyrium veins in these walls are richer and purer than any I've sensed in a while. It's doing things... changing this temple and everything in it."

 

Now think about this in terms of faith- in what people expect those ashes to do.   Not all of the Andrastean faithful are mages, yes- but still: thousands and thousands of people, believing.  There really isn't much more to magic in Thedas, at the core of it.  In the fade and in places where the veil is thin, the thoughts and feelings of sentient beings twist the world around them, if not shape it outright.  

 

Anyway, it's ambiguous.  There's still plenty of room if you want to believe the ashes are Blessed by the Maker.  Personally, I think a flowerpot full of dirt would have worked just as well, so long as it happened to be the focus of mass sustained belief for a thousand years and left next to a enormous pile of raw lyrium.  

 

As for the rest, I don't think there's any evidence that Shartan/Solas was the Knight, and am not sure what you mean by the ashes having something to do with Flemeth's body-hopping.  I don't think we know what's involved exactly, other than that it's probably along the same general lines of (but critically distinct from) the Dark Ritual that saved Urthemiel's OGS.  Andraste had two daughters before her death (Ebris and Vivial, who suspiciously went on to have a whole line of only daughters) so assuming the whole thing isn't a giant red herring, being burned at the stake doesn't seem to have impeded Mythal's ability to hop either way. 

[Illyria]

It stemmed from the we don't know a goddamn thing so we are hilariously making things up.

It may or may not be plausible but it is hilarious.

June=Sandal.

 

I thought it must be something like that.

 

Also, June=Sandal is 100% canon and no-one can tell me otherwise.

[Lady Luminous]

Can I just say... I really miss Sandal.  

[Birdy]

Hehe.  XD I love the banter
 

Sera: You can make magic anywhere, Solas? Ever ****** it by accident?
Solas: No. Wait...no.
Sera: What? How would you not remember something like that?
Solas: We were all young once.