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[Patchwork]

Uh oh, crap's going down on twitter.

 

I'm never around when this stuff kicks off so call me nosey but what's going on and where can I watch it happening?

[vierrae]

Hi, Solassians. I've been cheerfully lurking in this thread since Solas was announced and finally got around to making an account.

I've been toying with the Old God=Elf God theory for awhile. Here's my own chart for reference.

OLD GODS:

Dumat, Dragon of Silence

Zazikel, Dragon of Chaos/Freedom

Toth, Dragon of Fire

Andoral, Dragon of Unity/Slaves

Urthemiel, Dragon of Beauty

Razikale, Dragon of Mystery

Lusacan, Dragon of Night.

ELVEN CREATORS:

Mythal, Goddess of Motherhood, Protector, Justice. Also Flemeth.

Fen'Harel. The Dread Wolf. God of Rebellion/Trickery. Hints toward being a guardian god of some kind. Also Messere Egghead.

Elgar'nan. The All-Father. Son of the Sun. God of Vengeance.

Falon'din. God of Death, Friend to the Dead. Actually kind of a dick. Twin souled with Dirthamen.

Dirthamen. God of Secrets. Twin souled with Falon'din.

Andruil. Goddess of Hunting and Sacrifice. Hunted her own people and creatures in the Void, came back sick and mad. Possibly tainted.

Sylaise. Goddess of Fire, Hearthkeeping. Sister to Andruil.

June. God of Crafts. Created himself.

Ghilan'nain. Goddess of Halla, Navigation. Mother of Many Monsters. Killed most of them for Andruil in return for apotheosis.

FORGOTTEN ONES: (Possible Connection to the Four Forbidden Ones of Xebenbeck, Gaxkang, Imshael, and the Formless One? Is Solas the Formless One?! Am I drunk?)

Anaris

Geldauran

Daern'thal.

CADDIUS'S ZANY THEORY:

Dumat: Elgar'nan?/Mythal?

Zazikel: Ghilan'nain?

Toth: Sylaise.

Andoral: Andruil.

Urthemiel: June.

Razikale: Dirthamen.

Lusacan: Falon'din.

 

The Tenebrium constellation notes the connection between Lusacan and Falon'din. As does the Temple of Mythal's creepy-ass 'Song to Falon'din'. Falon'din is noted to be associated with night, black, the dead, and wings.

Razikale is the Dragon of Mystery and is next to Lusacan in the pantheon. Dirthamen is twin-souled with Falon'din, and is all about mystery and secrets. Another forumite suggested a dual-blight if this holds true. 

The Silentir constellation notes a possible connection between Mythal and Dumat. This could be incorrect, or it could tie into the Andraste=Dumat/Mythal Old God Baby theory. If it's not Mythal, I'd wager Elgar'nan. Elgar'nan is co-leader with Mythal, who is still active. Dumat's plan for the Magisters to enter the Golden City is typically thought of as a revenge plot against the Maker, and Dumat is generally considered the biggest, maddest, and baddest mofo amongst the Archdemons. Just look how ugly the First Blight was in comparison to Urthemiel's, or even Andoral's.

Sylaise's Song in the Temple is all about fire and being badass. Toth had one of the longest Blights, and considering the Grey Wardens were there from the start, I'd dare to say she did a better job than even Dumat.

June is the god of crafts. Artisans. Beauty. I'd also venture that the Architect was the pseudonym of June/Urthemiel's High Priest that entered the Black City at Corypheus's side.

Zazikel and Ghilan'nain are looser associations. Really, Fen'harel would fit better. But he seems okay. But maybe it's about how she was one of the younger goddesses, risen from the ranks of the mortals? Or how she created chaos with her mad science experiments and making me restart everytime I accidentally incinerate a halla in the Exalted Plains?

Andoral and Andruil are a loose connection, if that. Sacrificing slaves? Maybe she was the life of the party?

It sound legit in my books, that Old Gods/Elven pantheon are connected/one and the same. And it fits for each god to have his own dragonkey thing, which is mistaken by Tevinter for being a god itself.

[AryBoBary]

I'm never around when this stuff kicks off so call me nosey but what's going on and where can I watch it happening?

 

To the Twitternet!

[Meeres]

I completed my first playthrough about a week ago and have been sorta perusing this thread ever since.

Because, as usual, I go for the most horribly heartbreaking romance possible.

It's a gift.

 

So, uh, hi fellow Solas lovers! I must say I've seen a lot of really interesting theories being thrown around. It eases the pain.

[HurricaneGinger]

I'm never around when this stuff kicks off so call me nosey but what's going on and where can I watch it happening?

 

Patrick Weeke's twitter. Because of a retweet "so we should implement more unhealthy relationships", people are all over Mr. Weekes saying that he and others don't care about abuse survivors.  

[AryBoBary]

Patrick Weeke's twitter. Because of a retweet "so we should implement more unhealthy relationships", people are all over Mr. Weekes saying that he and others don't care about abuse survivors.  

 

*long sigh*

 

I want to say something so badly, but, I almost feel.. "What's the point?" As a survivor, I hold a personal testament to said triggers, and how they affect me, but do I really want to hash it out? Blech.

[TanithAeyrs]

In reference to the above theory, what if when an archdemon is killed, the god dies too, but a spark of their soul and power lives on and inhabits an untainted creature (for example Mythal in Flemeth) and Mythal has been trying to ensure that happens since the first blight.  That could explain the Sandal/June connection and the Sera/Andruil connection if they exist).   That puts a whole new twist on the Dark Ritual.  Crazy theory is Crazy.

[AryBoBary]

In reference to the above theory, what if when an archdemon is killed, the god dies too, but a spark of their soul and power lives on and inhabits an untainted creature (for example Mythal in Flemeth) and Mythal has been trying to ensure that happens since the first blight.  That could explain the Sandal/June connection and the Sera/Andruil connection if they exist).   That puts a whole new twist on the Dark Ritual.  Crazy theory is Crazy.

 

It could also lend credence to Solas' utter disapproval for the Warden's mission.  Even though, everyone else in the world of Thedas celebrates them, knowing full well, only a Warden can stop the Blights (which as far as anyone can remember, are EFFING AWFUL.)

[Aetheria]

I'm sure someone must have suggested this before. But.

 

If the elven pantheon = the Old Gods, then maybe that's why Solas disapproves if you let the Grey Wardens stay! Because their whole thing is killing his friends/ex-friends/frenemies.

 

(edit: whoops, ninja'd )

[Eivuwan]

I don't think there was a romance that was on abuse level. No one hits your or insults or anything like that.

[vierrae]

Patrick Weeke's twitter. Because of a retweet "so we should implement more unhealthy relationships", people are all over Mr. Weekes saying that he and others don't care about abuse survivors.  

As I recall, if it's not a recent event, abuse victims are resistant to these minor implications.

Bah. Some people tend to overreact. I bet people, who overreact now are *not* abuse survivors, they just try to deduct some things, they have never experienced.

Modifié par vierra, 06 janvier 2015 - 04:11 .

[LobselVith8]

It sound legit in my books, that Old Gods/Elven pantheon are connected/one and the same. And it fits for each god to have his own dragonkey thing, which is mistaken by Tevinter for being a god itself.

 

As for the discussion about the Creators and the Old Gods, this was brought up previously, and Gaider addressed it:

 

The cult of the Old Gods (I don't call it "the Tevinter religion" mainly because that, to me, speaks of the Imperial Chantry -- which is based in today's Tevinter Imperium) didn't contradict the existence of the Maker. Quite the opposite. The people of ancient Tevinter were aware of the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker" (though this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry) the creation of the world. The Old Gods were not creators, though they were supposedly also not created. The Old Gods were outside of the Creator's Plan and showed up to whisper to mankind and teach them magic. According to the Chantry, they turned mankind away from their regard for a remote Creator (who ruled remotely and never interacted with his own creations) and that this is what made the Creator abandon the Golden City... though there is argument that the cult believed the Creator had abandoned it long before and that they were adrift, rescued by the Old Gods. Modern sages say that this is attempt to explain the hardships that the early human civilizations faced, and not evidence of the Maker actually being absent.

 

So when Andraste showed up much, much later, she was advocating a return to the "rightful" worship of the Maker... it was not a belief that came out of nowhere.

 

As for the elves, their understanding of their own religion is incomplete. The whole truth was lost along with Arlathan and their immortality -- much of their lore was kept by a tradition of apprenticeship, handed down from the knowledgeable to the young, and this relied on the fact that the knowledgeable were eternal. Slaves also had less opportunity to spread their lore, so the sudden aging of the knowledgeable meant that much of this information was simply gone after several generations. This, of course, is their belief: the ancient Imperium maintained that the elves were never immortal to begin with, and that their lore was lost simply because the Imperium forbade its teaching.

 

Even so, the ancient elves did write things down, and so some scraps have been recovered. Thus the Dalish have slowly reassembled a religion from those pieces of lore, though how complete it is cannot be known. Even so, a few things are factual. For one, the original elven religion predates the cult of the Old Gods by a long time. Could the Old Gods have been based on the elven gods? Possibly, but there's nothing to suggest the elven gods were ever dragons, and certainly the contempt the Imperium held for elven culture makes it unlikely that they would think elven gods were worth worshipping. Consider also that it was the Old Gods that taught humanity its magic and encouraged them to destroy Arlathan -- why would elven gods do this? One could point to the Forgotten Ones (look at the codex entry on Fen'Harel for their mention) and suggest that they had reason for vengeance, though that would probably be against Fen'Harel and their good brethren and not against the elven people themselves, no? Still, all of that depends on how much of the knowledge given by Dalish tales is complete.

 

In terms of the elven religion's view of the Maker (or lack thereof), it might be interesting to point out that the elven creation myth doesn't stem from their gods. According to Dalish understanding, Elgar'nan and Mythal, the Father and the Mother, did not create the world. They were born of the world. The world was always there, and while it doesn't indicate the presence of a single creator that made the world it also doesn't necessarily contradict it.

 

The modern Chantry, however, does say that all these other gods are false. It doesn't say they never existed (though the elven legends are dismissed as just that, for the most part, but that's a carry-over of Imperial belief), but merely suggests that the Maker was long ago forgotten and that He is the only god that is worthy of true worship. The fact that His creations turned away from Him is shameful, and it is only by proving our worth to Him once again that the world will become the paradise He intended.

 

All of this is, of course, open to interpretation. That's part of the point of faith, if you ask me. Were some god to appear on earth and tell everyone How It Really Is that would destroy the very idea of faith -- though at that point one would have to ask: is such a being really a god? What is a god? What ideas are really worth worship? To me, that's the notion that's worth exploring. Beyond that, all conjecture is welcome.

[AryBoBary]

I'm sure someone must have suggested this before. But.

 

If the elven pantheon = the Old Gods, then maybe that's why Solas disapproves if you let the Grey Wardens stay! Because their whole thing is killing his friends/ex-friends/frenemies.

 

(edit: whoops, ninja'd )

 

Tehe, mah bad. 

 

And yes, it has been, like... a thousand or two pages ago, haha!  We just keep going in fanatical circles.  It's a beautiful thing, really. 

[Avejajed]

It's a temple where a guy got locked away and became a Pride demon. He did some terrible stuff to deserve it, but I can't remember the codexes about it. >.o
It doesn't have anything to do with Solas, other than sharing part of his name. Solassan is "the place where pride dwells."

It's interesting, and you get some nice personal benefits for doing it.

So boring. Lol.

[Avejajed]

Tehe, mah bad.

And yes, it has been, like... a thousand or two pages ago, haha! We just keep going in fanatical circles. It's a beautiful thing, really.

Such is the circle of life.

I'll be singing Lion King songs all night now, damnit.

[Aetheria]

Does Solas ever say anything else about not liking the Grey Wardens? I don't actually remember if there was much about that in-game.

 

I don't think there was a romance that was on abuse level. No one hits your or insults or anything like that.

 

I kinda thought what the writers must have been referring to was relationships like Hawke/Anders, where it's not like either of them hurts the other intentionally, it's just that one of them is a would-be terrorist who shares headspace with a crazy Fade spirit. Which causes problems.

[AryBoBary]

Such is the circle of life.

I'll be singing Lion King songs all night now, damnit.

 

Just let it go, okay...

 

Crap, Frozen songs stuck in my head.     

[Mims]

Patrick Weeke's twitter. Because of a retweet "so we should implement more unhealthy relationships", people are all over Mr. Weekes saying that he and others don't care about abuse survivors.  

 

I've fallen down the rabbit hole. I didn't realize that relationship was so controversial. Maybe a little problematic, but I doubt they intended it that way. And people are also saying Sera is abusive? I'm losing track of who is abusive. 

 

_{everyone is abusive...}

[electricfish]

Yeah, it seemed uncharacteristically sneaky and conniving of her. She knows you two are friends (or at least getting friendlier) when she approaches you about his father's letter, and all but says she wants you to use that friendship to trick him into walking into a trap so he'll likely be kidnapped back to Tevinter. And then she acts surprised and disapproving if you tell him. And I'm thinking, "B!tch, Dorian is my friend. He has a right to know. (And I'm an elf. I've got more reason to dislike and distrust Tevinter than you ever could.)"

 

Actually, come to think of it, for those who say Giselle is too nice and not political enough to go for Divine... this behavior kind of shows she does have something of a political side. >_<

 

It's also equally likely she was cagey because she knows that people who are angry and estranged from loved ones don't tend to willingly go talk to them just because they sent a letter. Telling Dorian could have just blown up in your face and he'd immediately refuse.

The fact that she doesn't like any of it seems like normal suspicion regarding Tevinter. The fact that Tevinter dad wrote it like a typical Tevinter noble didn't really help anyone. 

[Tielis]

 

As for the discussion about the Creators and the Old Gods, this was brought up previously, and Gaider addressed it:

 

 

And that last paragraph pretty much sums up what happened in this latest game.  

[madrar]

In reference to the above theory, what if when an archdemon is killed, the god dies too, but a spark of their soul and power lives on and inhabits an untainted creature (for example Mythal in Flemeth) and Mythal has been trying to ensure that happens since the first blight.  That could explain the Sandal/June connection and the Sera/Andruil connection if they exist).   That puts a whole new twist on the Dark Ritual.  Crazy theory is Crazy.

 

I'm pretty much on board with this.  My take on it:

 

I don't think death-by-Warden obliterates either soul.  I think the human one ends up pulling the OGS through the fade with it, effectively "killing" the Archdemon and ending the blight.  The cost, of course, is that when elven souls cross into the Fade these days, they're washed clean- they lose most of what they were.  Solas' anger towards the Wardens is very similar to his anger in All New: Faded.  In each case the essence of the entity still exists in some fashion, and will reform (or be reborn) but it will never be the same being it was, the friend he knew.  Sera is not Andruil.  (Probably a good thing.)  Sandal is not June.  A considerable degree of skill and power remains, but their memories, their personality... all lost.  

 

Mythal, clearly, has found a sneaky way around this recycling business.  It's unclear exactly what the deal is with the Dark Ritual, or what effect it might have had on Kieran's OGS, since he seems... normal?  ish.  He clearly knows and sees more than he should, but from the outside it's hard to judge whether there's a fully-aware and newly-sane Old God in there with him, or if it didn't quite work and it's just a remnant like Sera/Sandal.

[Avejajed]

As I recall, if it's not a recent event, abuse victims are resistant to these minor implications.
Bah. Some people tend to overreact. I bet people, who overreact now are *not* abuse survivors, they just try to deduct some things, they have never experienced.

People will find any reason they can to be offended. I think deep down people enjoy being offended. They can rely on their righteous indignation to make themselves feel as though their point of view is superior to everyone elses.

Weekes, I think, can handle it with a shrug. Gaider, on the other hand, strikes me as having a extremely prickly personality. He's more likely to respond by offending people on purpose.

[Patchwork]

Patrick Weeke's twitter. Because of a retweet "so we should implement more unhealthy relationships", people are all over Mr. Weekes saying that he and others don't care about abuse survivors.  

 

...I think tv fandoms have done something to me, lowered my expectations? Raised them? Either way it's less of a blood bath than I'm used to. Not that that's a bad thing.