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[flabbadence]

Since we're on the topic of Solas and Mythal,

 

When I first got to the Well of Sorrows, Solas said, "So Mythal endures". I didn't know he was Fen'Harel then, so I took the line as just being another manifestation of his perpetual Fade+ancient stuff boner. But after I've gone through the Stinger, now that line strikes me as odd.

 

Did he think Mythal already dead before they came across her apparently still functioning temple? That would explain why he says he doesn't have any friends aside from spirits. And that's also why he breaks it off with Lavellan after the temple, because after finding out Mythal's still alive it just got so much more complicated, and he can't get Lavellan involved more than ever.

 

More likely though, I think he knows Mythal's still there, but so much weaker than before, so his saying "So Mythal endures" is him being surprised she still has enough power left to run the temple. BUT if that's the case, then again we have to go back to him saying he has no friends aside from spirits, which is weird since he and Mythal are such BFFs post-credits. So either he's lying, or, and this is what I believe, he's telling the truth and this is Bioware's way of saying that Mythal is in fact a spirit. Maybe she's always been one, or maybe, when she died, a Spirit of Justice took up her form, just as we saw with Justinia/Faith and Cole/Compassion.

 

(alright that's it, the pull of lore speculation is too much, i'm leaving the lurker's balcony)

[tsunamitigerdragon]

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[dragondreamer]

Before I head to bed, there's been something gnawing at me.

The Brecilian Forest ruins were apparently co-habitated by elves and humans, with some statues of the elven gods.

The Arcane Warrior spirit, when asked about what happened here, says that there was an attack.

"By humans?"

"No, not by humans. It was they who had built this place, long before."

The Elder Tree speaks of some weirdness going on as well. There are some Tevinter ruins as well.

It's been awhile since I've done that quest, so I'm probably missing a lot of details.

What do we make of it? Was it Arlathan's Civil War?

 

I think the Brecilian Forest settlement would have predated Arlathan, so back in the heyday of the Elvhen Empire.  Used to think it was probably just an out of control demon/abomination whatever, but it could have been a lot of things.  We know Falon'Din would have vanity wars, and Andruil might have tested a weapon on their own people.  Could have also been infighting between Creators, or warring with the Forgotten Ones.  Or maybe an old elven creation went haywire.  It's implied there was magical experimentation going on with the eluvians that both elves and humans were involved with. 

 

The nature of the settlement is interesting though, with the human/elven co-habitation, and there was also a dwarven trading post there.  Almost like a window of what a better future might have been like if things had been different.  Maybe someone didn't like it.

 

What the hell was the context of that? It sticks out in my head for being a beautiful and very Solas-y line, but I can't remember if Cole's doing his word-salad character of the day thing or if there was someone specific.

 

Cole was reading the Wisdom's spirit's memory for Solas. 

[tsunamitigerdragon]

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[madrar]

 

 

Oh! That bit. My point was and still is, the others tie in nicely with each other, Fen'Harel does not, and I wonder why. It may strengthen the three gods theory or cast doubt. 

 

Hmm?  In what way does Fen'Harel not fit?

[Hedinve]

I have a bad habit of screenshot-ing everything I find interesting. It comes in handy sometimes.

[tsunamitigerdragon]

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[DragonRacer]

This one is nothing special, but curious to observe. Notice how the tree-thingies in the tapestry resemble trees in the Crossroads?

 

It also matches how the tree statues look in The Dead Hand puzzle room.

 

It's very curious because, yes, the Crossroads trees look like that.

[Caddius]

I think the Brecilian Forest settlement would have predated Arlathan, so back in the heyday of the Elvhen Empire.  Used to think it was probably just an out of control demon/abomination whatever, but it could have been a lot of things.  We know Falon'Din would have vanity wars, and Andruil might have tested a weapon on their own people.  Could have also been infighting between Creators, or warring with the Forgotten Ones.  Or maybe an old elven creation went haywire.  It's implied there was magical experimentation going on with the eluvians that both elves and humans were involved with. 

 

The nature of the settlement is interesting though, with the human/elven co-habitation, and there was also a dwarven trading post there.  Almost like a window of what a better future might have been like if things had been different.  Maybe someone didn't like it.

 

 

Cole was reading the Wisdom's spirit's memory for Solas. 

Hmm. I'm leaning toward a Creator squabble at the moment myself.

The cohabitation is very interesting. It's easy to forget that many centuries passed between the humans arriving in Thedas and Tevinter's rise. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the elves took it upon themselves to mentor the humans.

Maybe even share their pantheons with them, with the humans giving them their own names?

 

As for Solas's 'So, Mythal endures,' line. If you hadn't figured out Solas was in some way connected to the ancient elves, that was the red flag. It also explains a lot of why he breaks up with Lavellan afterward. It's a game-changer. If Mythal is still active...

I think the implication is that Solas honestly expected her to be dead or inactive at that point. Probably because the murder of her was kind of a big deal. He doesn't remark like that upon the elven Sentinels, and his comments to Abelas indicate that there ARE other Ancient Elves existing.  even points to Felassan as being one of them, in hindsight.

DragonDreamer's signature , ""Once, my people walked this land as gods.  We worked magic that would blind you with its beauty.  Now, we lurk in the deep forests and prepare for the next time youshemlen do something that upsets the balance of this world," even points to Felassan as being one of them, in hindsight. Which is awesome.

[tsunamitigerdragon]

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[Caddius]

 

Apparently I'm also dumb to have missed the "duh" truth - he's also headed West at the end of the game. Literally.

 

I don't get all the people claiming that the plot is moving west because of the Warden looking for the Calling West and Solas heading out West. Sure, the Calling part, maybe. (Do they have darkspawn in the uncharted West? Does the Architect have a winter home on the Sea of Ash that he's invited the Hero to?)

But the Final Battle takes place in the Frostbacks. All Solas going west tells us is that he's probably not buying a ship to cross the Waking Sea, and he's not going to Ferelden. And I doubt Leliana's people could track the Dread Wolf all the way to the farthest reaches of Orlais. 

[Hedinve]

The myth (as in elven myth), like you say tries to make bonds between the different gods. Fen'Harel is left out, probaly because of him being blamed for locking the other gods away. He is, however, described as kin to both the good elven gods and the bad ones. He is, again as you say, grey, in the middle. I think there is a reason for him being not tied in as child/sibling but as kin to both sides in a war between gods. The good ones have in the elven myths, a united front. We now know that it's more complicated than "good" vs "bad" gods and Fen'Harel in between.

 

I'm not trying to make a more precise statement than this; it is interesting that he is in the middle in the myth. I'm wondering if that means something.

 

If the sibling myths has any grain of truth and Mythal is the mother of Falon'din/Dirthamen/Fen'Harel - nice, it ties him in as a part of the good ones.  

 

If the pantheon is random elves with power not tied together with family bonds - I just want to know how he is neutral? Was he ever in the middle? How can a god of rebellion be a neutral agent? Was he waging war on both sides? Was he a spy or a diplomat? Or something else entirely?

[nranola]

We already know Flemeth = Mythal, as does he. If Mythal were his mother, the situation still stands unresolved. Why would she hide their familial connection and why would the dev notes focus on the singularly dear friend relationship?

Ok - with your last bit... If he were the child of a LOVER, not Elgar'nan, that could be a possibility. But if true, it would also serve to negate the Falon'Din/Dirthamen/Fen'Harel theory beyond the true-to-lore meaning of twin souls vs. actual twins. Falon'Din most certainly is a distinct entity and child of the Elgar'nan--Mythal union. Dirthamen, while parentage unknown, is certainly not of that same union.

 

Flemeth and Mythal may be one now, but they were two separate entities at some point in time. Mythal was her own person in all her elven glory... until she got murdered, and her wisp went into Flemeth. It's not as if the wisp fully took control of Flemeth ala Corypheus-style body transfer - Flemeth is still in large part, Flemeth. Heck, Flemeth has daughters of her own!

 

So I can see how while you could equate Flemeth = Mythal, Fen'Harel would have reservations about calling her "mother", or Flemeth to him her "son". They may not see each other in that way at all.

 

I dunno though, it gets really confusing how this whole dynamic works between them. It must be beyond awkward.   Anyway, that's why I think the "old friends" thing still works regardless of whether Fen'Harel is Mythal's son or not.

 

I may just be running out of brain juice, but I don't understand what you mean by your last bit. >_<

[Avejajed]

Since we're on the topic of Solas and Mythal,

 

When I first got to the Well of Sorrows, Solas said, "So Mythal endures". I didn't know he was Fen'Harel then, so I took the line as just being another manifestation of his perpetual Fade+ancient stuff boner. But after I've gone through the Stinger, now that line strikes me as odd.

 

Did he think Mythal already dead before they came across her apparently still functioning temple? That would explain why he says he doesn't have any friends aside from spirits. And that's also why he breaks it off with Lavellan after the temple, because after finding out Mythal's still alive it just got so much more complicated, and he can't get Lavellan involved more than ever.

 

More likely though, I think he knows Mythal's still there, but so much weaker than before, so his saying "So Mythal endures" is him being surprised she still has enough power left to run the temple. BUT if that's the case, then again we have to go back to him saying he has no friends aside from spirits, which is weird since he and Mythal are such BFFs post-credits. So either he's lying, or, and this is what I believe, he's telling the truth and this is Bioware's way of saying that Mythal is in fact a spirit. Maybe she's always been one, or maybe, when she died, a Spirit of Justice took up her form, just as we saw with Justinia/Faith and Cole/Compassion.

 

(alright that's it, the pull of lore speculation is too much, i'm leaving the lurker's balcony)

 

 

I took the line "So Mythal Endures" to be more figurative- sort of that he knew SHE endured, but is mildly surprised that this temple survived as did the ancient elves protecting it.

[zambixi]

Since we're on the topic of Solas and Mythal,

 

When I first got to the Well of Sorrows, Solas said, "So Mythal endures". I didn't know he was Fen'Harel then, so I took the line as just being another manifestation of his perpetual Fade+ancient stuff boner. But after I've gone through the Stinger, now that line strikes me as odd.

 

Did he think Mythal already dead before they came across her apparently still functioning temple? That would explain why he says he doesn't have any friends aside from spirits. And that's also why he breaks it off with Lavellan after the temple, because after finding out Mythal's still alive it just got so much more complicated, and he can't get Lavellan involved more than ever.

 

More likely though, I think he knows Mythal's still there, but so much weaker than before, so his saying "So Mythal endures" is him being surprised she still has enough power left to run the temple. BUT if that's the case, then again we have to go back to him saying he has no friends aside from spirits, which is weird since he and Mythal are such BFFs post-credits. So either he's lying, or, and this is what I believe, he's telling the truth and this is Bioware's way of saying that Mythal is in fact a spirit. Maybe she's always been one, or maybe, when she died, a Spirit of Justice took up her form, just as we saw with Justinia/Faith and Cole/Compassion.

 

(alright that's it, the pull of lore speculation is too much, i'm leaving the lurker's balcony)

 

I don't think he knows that Mythal is still alive, honestly. He might suspect that she could be around in some capacity, but it has been thousands of years since she was murdered and he might think it is fairly unlikely that she has found a host. He might also be talking about "Mythal" as in the idea - beyond the person. She's not just around, but she has "followers," she has the power of the temple, she has the knowledge contained in the Well of Sorrows. Perhaps this is not true of the other gods, or perhaps he just expected that when she died - her presence would crumble to a greater extent. Solas seems very surprised and very protective of the Temple and its secrets - almost desperately so. If he'd had time to process its existence then I think his arguments would be much more logical and less emotional (he has several outbursts while you're there).

 

It's also pretty interesting that if Morrigan kills Abelas, his last words are "Mythal endures" (in elvish). I'm sensing a theme here. I'll bet we hear it repeated if/when Morrigan get's Mythal's godhood.

 

As for the third romance scene... I'm not sure if the Temple is the reason he backs off or not. He goes into that scene with every intention of laying it on the line for Lavellan. He almost breaks twice: once when he talks about telling Lavellan "the truth," and again after the booty grab. TWICE. I don't think he's thinking about the temple in a real way until after he reaffirms his dedication to his cause.

[Arlee]

Just wanted to share last night I got a new banter between Cass and Solas I hadn't heard before (which is weird because they are always in my party) and it was nifty because it gave a very clear explanation of Solas in a few lines.

 

Basically Cass said she was surprised he never seemed surprised about the revelations about the Seekers. He replied it was because he wasn't surprised due to the fact the Seekers are an organization and all organizations eventually start to put a lot of effort towards continuing to exist instead of whatever their original purpose was. Then he went on to say something about how it's always important to have people in power who won't lose sight of what's actually important.

 

Obviously all of that is paraphrased, but I just thought it was a really interesting moment. Wish I could have responded though QQ. Felt like there was a bit of an added layer as well because I'm doing the romance with Solas this PT. Anywho, it was nifty and since some people seem to have problems with banter happening I thought I'd share

[dragondreamer]

Hmm. I'm leaning toward a Creator squabble at the moment myself.

The cohabitation is very interesting. It's easy to forget that many centuries passed between the humans arriving in Thedas and Tevinter's rise. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the elves took it upon themselves to mentor the humans.

Maybe even share their pantheons with them, with the humans giving them their own names?

 

As for Solas's 'So, Mythal endures,' line. If you hadn't figured out Solas was in some way connected to the ancient elves, that was the red flag. It also explains a lot of why he breaks up with Lavellan afterward. It's a game-changer. If Mythal is still active...

I think the implication is that Solas honestly expected her to be dead or inactive at that point. Probably because the murder of her was kind of a big deal. He doesn't remark like that upon the elven Sentinels, and his comments to Abelas indicate that there ARE other Ancient Elves existing.  even points to Felassan as being one of them, in hindsight.

DragonDreamer's signature , ""Once, my people walked this land as gods.  We worked magic that would blind you with its beauty.  Now, we lurk in the deep forests and prepare for the next time youshemlen do something that upsets the balance of this world," even points to Felassan as being one of them, in hindsight. Which is awesome.

 

Yup, I've suspected Felassan might have been an Arcane Warrior in the past.  His talk with Michel just left me that sort of impression.  The last part of that quote, I left out:  "Do you know what I was in my time, boy?"  He seems to come close to admitting more than he should in the heat of the moment.

 

So yeah, I think Solas knows about other ancient elves still in hiding or sleeping, like the Sentinels were. 

[Reznore57]

I see the connection between him and the Forgotten Ones as stronger than him with Dirthamen and Falon'Din. And again, I'll repoint to this codex for whom I believe he has more chances of being than not:



It certainly leads credence to why he isn't presented with a face, unlike the rest of them. Perhaps its because he didn't have one, but many. Look at the Towers card, re-read that last paragraph, and tell me you see anything different!

Belongs to: means follower of, likely similar to Ghilal'nain and the situation with Andruil. But maybe - if looking at the codex entry - he was a "follower" of many. It's clear he had tried to cover his tracks with multiple Gods, whomever this entity was.

 

I think Fen harel is that guy who shapeshift.

He wasn't truly a god , but he turned into something who was supposed to be Divine .

It means your random elf could inspire to Godhood , and if Godhood is for everyone , it lost its meaning.

 

So what this guy did was seen as an ultimate act of rebellion , and spark a flame among the elves.

I think the masses is just a mob of fed up elves.

Anyway if we have an angry mob and elgar'nan unleashed ...blood and death for everyone!

Maybe Mythal turned around , declared Fen Harel was some kind of demi God , and he agreed to enter the pantheon .

And he walked among the Gods , and walked among the People.

Of course it didn't work out , Mythal was killed .

We know the Gods were violent and a bunch of tyrants , so it's not too far fetched to think some elves (Knowing they could be as powerful as the Gods) went to look for some magical solution ...

I suppose whatever they come up with wasn't brillant , so they fought the Pantheon , did something terrible .Let's call them the Forgotten Ones.Those dudes we shall never ever talk about.

 

So maybe Solas wants to save the Forgotten Ones , and not the Dalish Gods.

[DragonRacer]

So, For Science™, I created a male Lavellan last night. Planning to romance Dorian (in my weird way, that's my reward to him for being my FemLavellan's BFF and sticking with her post-game UNLIKE SOME PEOPLE ).

 

I'm curious to see how the friendship - NOT romanced - path goes with Solas. Also will be interested to see if any dialogue shifts around based on that. Will report if anything interesting comes up. Also planning to have him drink from the Well (my FemLavellan let Morrigan do it), so I'm interested to see what all that changes as well.

 

For any curious, this is Revas. I actually feel a bit guilty because I'm sort of crushing really hard on him (sorrynotsorry, Solas ):

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

[CapricornSun]

This happens alot when inventory is loading.

 

 

LOL! Can't be worse than what I got in my game. xD Behold! Low res, derpy eyed Solas!

 

Spoiler

 

Also, I did a sketch of Solas and my Tala... I'm a bit embarassed but here it is.

 

Spoiler

 

My Tumblr art blog: http://sunnyartthing...ge/107311627099

[tsunamitigerdragon]

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[Hedinve]

 

 

So maybe Solas wants to save the Forgotten Ones , and not the Dalish Gods.

 

This is where my jumbled train of thought is going. Not as a wholesale theory, but to point out that he is friendly with both sides and as far as we know, the forgotten ones might be the good guys. Or less horrible.

 

(English is not my first language and I do have ADD so I struggle with making long posts fully explaining what I'm thinking - I apologize for being confusing, I'm not being argumentative, just exploring ideas - let me know if I only contribute to chaos)

[CapricornSun]

So, For Science™, I created a male Lavellan last night. Planning to romance Dorian (in my weird way, that's my reward to him for being my FemLavellan's BFF and sticking with her post-game UNLIKE SOME PEOPLE ).

 

I'm curious to see how the friendship - NOT romanced - path goes with Solas. Also will be interested to see if any dialogue shifts around based on that. Will report if anything interesting comes up. Also planning to have him drink from the Well (my FemLavellan let Morrigan do it), so I'm interested to see what all that changes as well.

 

For any curious, this is Revas. I actually feel a bit guilty because I'm sort of crushing really hard on him (sorrynotsorry, Solas ):

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

Oooh! Revas is quite the handsome elf!

 

Ack! Now I want to roll a male Lavellan (and maybe romance Dorian or Josie with him) but I want to finish my male Trevelyan playthrough first (I'm also going for the Solas friendship path with this one).

-----

 

EDIT: BTW guys and gals, I sometimes feel guilty for not contributing to the whole theory stuff but unfortunately I'm not good with that sort of thing. I have to say though, I really enjoy reading up on all the theories everyone comes up with.

[madrar]

I see the connection between him and the Forgotten Ones as stronger than him with Dirthamen and Falon'Din. And again, I'll repoint to this codex for whom I believe he has more chances of being than not:



It certainly leads credence to why he isn't presented with a face, unlike the rest of them. Perhaps its because he didn't have one, but many. Look at the Towers card, re-read that last paragraph, and tell me you see anything different!

Belongs to: means follower of, likely similar to Ghilal'nain and the situation with Andruil. But maybe - if looking at the codex entry - he was a "follower" of many. It's clear he had tried to cover his tracks with multiple Gods, whomever this entity was.

 

Like the earlier post, I think this was dropped to "prime the pump" so to speak- to get us thinking about how judgement and punishment worked in ancient Arthlathan so we could extrapolate from there.  A bit like the codex describing Ghil'nain being raised to the Pantheon.  It's interesting, but not particularly relevant, but if we didn't know the elvish ruling class could work that way, it would be a much, much bigger stretch to explain the rising and falling fortunes of this one particular apostate hobo.  

 

Solas was absolutely subject to the same punishment as the elf described here- not much a surprise, since their essential crime (treason against the Pantheon) was the same.  But it's not him.  Red herring.  

[Illyria]

Guys, I need some help.  I need the exact quote that Solas has to descibe Arlathan and I don't think I have a save from before I went through that dialouge chain.