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Solas Thread - NOW OFFICIALLY MOVED to Cyonan's BSN (link in OP)


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#48826
madrar

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Definitely ALL of this. I think it's an intriguing idea, I love the research that went into it, but it's just a hit too much. It's why once it was revealed via Dev Notes that Flemeth only gave Solas/Fen'Harel her power not her godhood I felt instantaneously relieved. If late 90's era Marvel Comics about Rogue taught us anything, having several powerful multiple personalities hanging out in one person is bad news. And bad storytelling - it makes things too complex to comprehend for the reader and through that lack of understanding dehumanizes them and their motivations.

But they threw in time travel... so maybe they haven't learned enough? :P Time travel is sticky in narratives and never explained/ resolved in a way that is truly satisfying. It's like clones in the 90s and Spider Man. That was just one huge hot mess. Secret to success? Avoid clones and time travel... unless you're Chrono Trigger.

 

Honestly, I agree with all of this.  My first reaction when the pieces fell in place was a resounding NOPE.

 

NOPE.  *toss the computer out the window*  NOOOOPE.

 

It can't be right.  I reasoned.  I know Solas.   Falon'Din was a monster, the antithesis of what I believe... no, what I know he is.  Solas is compassion.  He is fairness.  He is a stubborn, bull-headed champion of free will, tolerance, kindness, and faith in the human spirit. (ok, yes, "elven".  You know what I mean.) 

 

How can I possibly reconcile this with Falon'Din?!

 

There is a way.  Let me explain.   Our Solas was not an illusion.  He was not "faking it" with the Inquisitor, not presenting himself as fundamentally different from what he was.  What we understand of his nature and his motivations were always, and continue to be, his true and honest beliefs.

 

The critical thing to remember is that it is his perspective, not ours, that shapes our understanding of Falon'Din's crimes.  He is telling his own story, coloring the events with a degree of self-recrimination and guilt that is not, if were we to examine it objectively, necessarily deserved.  

 

The "followers" that he describes in his story were not mindless worshipers.  What he's actually describing was a social rebellion, a failed one that Falon'Din led and encouraged, which swept through the lands of Arlathan.   In his telling he twists this into an act of pride, making the deaths of those who died a personal sacrifice to him- to ideals that he identifies so strongly with that he's blind to the fact that they were not for him.  The elves who gave their lives in the attempt fought and died because they believed in the same ideals.  They died for their own beliefs, not to vindicate his.  

 

Solas thinks they died because he was too proud, too certain, that the world should change and that he could change it.  This, I believe, the primal sin of Pride that haunts him.  But it's not true.

 

"You didn't do it to be right.  You did it to save them."

 

Cole can see it, even if Solas can't.  He didn't lead the rebellion to be right.  He did it because it was right.  Ages of guilt and sorrow have blinded him to his own motivations.  

 

Weeeeekes.  Weekes, I swear to god.  If anyone deserves a happy ending- if anyone has fought for it harder or sacrificed more-  just please.  Please?  Pain is great, it is useful, but there is a point when nothing more can be learned from it.  Solas is there.  The only thing he has left to learn is how to let it go.

 

*lies down on the floor*   

 

*waits for DLC*


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#48827
DragonRacer

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My anaconda don't--*ducks from flying trash* Okay! I'll take my leave.

 

 

On a related note

 

Spoiler

 

:lol: :lol:

 

Oh. My. GOD.


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#48828
hellozombie

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As much as love complex theories - I am 100% with you. Not a fan of "shoving the story/lore up its own butt because it's deep?"(I'm giving the side-eye to you Bioshock). I like when people who should know better screw up. I like doubt. I like when people are corrupted by power. I like redemption. I like the game's discussion of faith and how it can be manipulated. Makes the story fun.


I was thinking today and your comment reminded me. Another reason why I'm forever booked on the Team Optimism dreadnought is because there is only one kind of story I love more than a tragedy and that is a tale of redemption. A journey towards redemption is, to me anyway, so full of potential for layers of meaning and growth and all the best stuff that goes into that delicious characterization cake. That's the kind of tale I think Solas deserves, but I think it's also the tale that would be the most memorable. And I believe writers in general want their characters to be memorable above all things. YEA VERILY
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#48829
Avejajed

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Honestly, I agree with all of this. My first reaction when the pieces fell in place was a resounding NOPE.

NOPE. *toss the computer out the window* NOOOOPE.

It can't be right. I reasoned. I know Solas. Falon'Din was a monster, the antithesis of what I believe... no, what I know he is. Solas is compassion. He is fairness. He is a stubborn, bull-headed champion of free will, tolerance, kindness, and faith in the human spirit. (ok, yes, "elven". You know what I mean.)

How can I possibly reconcile this with Falon'Din?!

There is a way. Let me explain. Our Solas was not an illusion. He was not "faking it" with the Inquisitor, not presenting himself as fundamentally different from what he was. What we understand of his nature and his motivations were always, and continue to be, his true and honest beliefs.

The critical thing to remember is that it is his perspective, not ours, that shapes our understanding of Falon'Din's crimes. He is telling his own story, coloring the events with a degree of recrimination and self-hatred that is not, if were we to examine it objectively, necessarily deserved.

The "followers" that he describes in his story were not mindless worshipers. What he's actually describing was a rebellion, a failed rebellion that Falon'Din led and encouraged, which swept through the lands of Arlathan. In his telling he twists this into an act of pride, making the deaths of those who died a personal sacrifice to him- to ideals that he identifies so strongly with that he's blind to the fact that they were not for him. The elves who gave their lives in the attempt fought and died because they believed in the same ideals. They died for their own beliefs, not to vindicate his.

Solas thinks they died because he was too proud, too certain, that the world should change and that he could change it. This, I believe, the primal sin of Pride that haunts him. But it's not true.

"You didn't do it to be right. You did it to save them."

Cole can see it, even if Solas can't. He didn't lead the rebellion to be right. He did it because it was right. Ages of guilt and sorrow have blinded him to his own motivations.

Weeeeekes. Weekes, I swear to god. If anyone deserves a happy ending- if anyone has fought for it harder or sacrificed more- just please. Please? Pain is great, it is useful, but there is a point when nothing more can be learned from it. Solas is there. The only thing he has left to learn is how to let it go.

*lies down on the floor*

*waits for DLC*


I think you may be there awhile. Do you want us to feed and water you?
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#48830
BoscoBread

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I was thinking today and your comment reminded me. Another reason why I'm forever booked on the Team Optimism dreadnought is because there is only one kind of story I love more than a tragedy and that is a tale of redemption. A journey towards redemption is, to me anyway, so full of potential for layers of meaning and growth and all the best stuff that goes into that delicious characterization cake. That's the kind of tale I think Solas deserves, but I think it's also the tale that would be the most memorable. And I believe writers in general want their characters to be memorable above all things. YEA VERILY

I know!  I have this image at the end - a battered Lavellan and Solas, foreheads pressed together, smiling and Lavellan whispers 'You are such a big idiot'.


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#48831
madrar

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As an addendum to that last post, it's a pretty key pick up that Mythal was the one who crushed Falon'Din's rebellion.  It's certainly confirmation-fuel for the previous theory that she was very much not on board the Freedom Train at that point, and sets things up nicely for the Triad-Conflict we see echo again and again through history with Mythal as its center:

 

The Husband (Elgar'nan)

The Wife (Mythal)

The Lover (Solas) 

 

Mythal is initially tied, by faction and the belief system that forms its foundation, to Elgar'nan- a connection recorded in myth as the joining of husband and wife. 

 

She is wooed away from this belief, embracing that of another.  Solas and all that he stands for.

 

Elgar'nan, (the jealous and spurned "husband") furious at this betrayal and her adoption of new ideals, kills her.

 

One more death for Solas to carry... but important insight into the why and how of Mythal's murder.   


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#48832
k_drake

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I know!  I have this image at the end - a battered Lavellan and Solas, foreheads pressed together, smiling and Lavellan whispers 'You are such a big idiot'.

10/10 would read more ;)


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#48833
Avejajed

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I can't abide solas and flemythal doing it.

Nope.
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#48834
BubbleDncr

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I redid the fade part with Kieran to see if I can find anything interesting, there's this

tumblr_nhpskfMAHN1re2bj2o2_1280.jpg

tumblr_nhpskfMAHN1re2bj2o8_1280.jpg

wtf

 

 

OMG Guys! I found this statue in the Emerald Graves! It's a landmark!

 

VwBF8YC.jpg

 

y0unbXl.jpg

 

YAxNiPI.jpg


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#48835
zambixi

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I was thinking today and your comment reminded me. Another reason why I'm forever booked on the Team Optimism dreadnought is because there is only one kind of story I love more than a tragedy and that is a tale of redemption. A journey towards redemption is, to me anyway, so full of potential for layers of meaning and growth and all the best stuff that goes into that delicious characterization cake. That's the kind of tale I think Solas deserves, but I think it's also the tale that would be the most memorable. And I believe writers in general want their characters to be memorable above all things. YEA VERILY

 

All Aboard the S.S. Optimism!

 

But yes, I love redemption far and beyond tragedy. To see someone overcome something instead of ending with them being punished for their actions...well as you said for me it's more satisfying. Especially when the character deserves it. That's how I feel about Solas -- he deserves a good ending. He isn't messing up out of malice, he just tries to do everything by himself because he doesn't believe others can/should shoulder the burden. He's so bad at helping, but that's all he wants to do! It just seems sort of cruel to punish a character for that mentality. Or to twist him into being power-hungry for the sake of plot. It feels wrong.

 

That doesn't mean that they won't do it, because they have their story. But I won't like it. I want Solas to screw up, realize it, and actually grow from it instead of us getting a "murderknife y/n?" option. I have so many feels about this! Weekes I am sending you my feels telepathically please treat them kindly! Anyway, I think Weekes will do it justice so... here's hoping.


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#48836
Eivuwan

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OMG Guys! I found this statue in the Emerald Graves! It's a landmark!

 

VwBF8YC.jpg

 

y0unbXl.jpg

 

YAxNiPI.jpg

 

Maybe he's Mythal's lover.



#48837
annsa

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Yeah, honestly, I have no interest in Mass Effect 4. The universe is done for me. Well, I will probably buy the game eventually, but I won't be all hyped up over it.

Well, i`m just curious how the story will move from mass effect 3 to mass effect 4..? ( and yes, i will buy it no matter =) ) It will take place so far in to the future, that what ever you did in mass effect 3, it doesn`t matter. So goodbye Shepard and your bad ending.



#48838
Sister Squish

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I can't abide solas and flemythal doing it.

Nope.

 

I think what madrar is saying is that The Husband/Wife/Lover are the more modern terms used in an allegorical metaphor for predating ideas which mortals may have difficulty understanding. The husband being an ancient, established belief and societal system, Solas being the new, rebellious flavour and Mythal choosing to defect from one to the other. So we can choose to see their relationships as literal, or not.

Am I right? 

It also adds far more weight to Solas' "The Lover" tarot card. I love it. 



#48839
RynJ

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From Random Enocounterz, b/c misery loves company (?):

 

http://random-encoun...-solas-romance/

 

ETA: Ach, someone already posted this.  Sorry @ willthiswork!!  I'll just add that the DA:I review the comic links to is worth a look.  

 

I couldn't disagree with these people any more. Other than Solas romance needing more content to feel more full. But to say Bull's is better....

 

*Ryn shuts up now because all the romances are spectacular*


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#48840
Eivuwan

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I couldn't disagree with these people any more. Other than Solas romance needing more content. But to say Bull's is better....

 

*Ryn shuts up now because all the romances are spectacular*

 

I get you. When you feel so passionate about a character, it can be hard not to argue, but we must try. *argues with them in my head*



#48841
Guest_Dandelion_Wine_*

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lizasaurus, on 06 Jan 2015 - 5:46 PM, said:
having several powerful multiple personalities hanging out in one person is bad news.

It isn't multiple personalities in one person, it's the same person through countless ages and experiences.

It's a far fetched idea, but the bread crumbs are there in the lore.

#48842
HurricaneGinger

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I was thinking today and your comment reminded me. Another reason why I'm forever booked on the Team Optimism dreadnought is because there is only one kind of story I love more than a tragedy and that is a tale of redemption. A journey towards redemption is, to me anyway, so full of potential for layers of meaning and growth and all the best stuff that goes into that delicious characterization cake. That's the kind of tale I think Solas deserves, but I think it's also the tale that would be the most memorable. And I believe writers in general want their characters to be memorable above all things. YEA VERILY

All Aboard the S.S. Optimism!

 

But yes, I love redemption far and beyond tragedy. To see someone overcome something instead of ending with them being punished for their actions...well as you said for me it's more satisfying. Especially when the character deserves it. That's how I feel about Solas -- he deserves a good ending. He isn't messing up out of malice, he just tries to do everything by himself because he doesn't believe others can/should shoulder the burden. He's so bad at helping, but that's all he wants to do! It just seems sort of cruel to punish a character for that mentality. Or to twist him into being power-hungry for the sake of plot. It feels wrong.

 

That doesn't mean that they won't do it, because they have their story. But I won't like it. I want Solas to screw up, realize it, and actually grow from it instead of us getting a "murderknife y/n?" option. I have so many feels about this! Weekes I am sending you my feels telepathically please treat them kindly! Anyway, I think Weekes will do it justice so... here's hoping.

 

Team Optimism gives me so much hope, I love you guys. 

 

tumblr_inline_mv3spjtTc51rdiikq.gif


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#48843
Eivuwan

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It isn't multiple personalities in one person, it's the same person through countless ages and experiences.

 

But my simple human mind cannot comprehend this "same person through countless ages and experiences." *brain explodes*


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#48844
DragonRacer

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OMG Guys! I found this statue in the Emerald Graves! It's a landmark!
 
VwBF8YC.jpg
 
y0unbXl.jpg
 
YAxNiPI.jpg

 
THANK YOU! I mentioned (buried paaaaaaaaaaaaages ago) that it was The Watcher statue from the Emerald Graves, but I didn't have a screenshot handy of the landmark text. So, yay for having that! :)
 
 

All Aboard the S.S. Optimism!
 
But yes, I love redemption far and beyond tragedy. To see someone overcome something instead of ending with them being punished for their actions...well as you said for me it's more satisfying. Especially when the character deserves it. That's how I feel about Solas -- he deserves a good ending. He isn't messing up out of malice, he just tries to do everything by himself because he doesn't believe others can/should shoulder the burden. He's so bad at helping, but that's all he wants to do! It just seems sort of cruel to punish a character for that mentality. Or to twist him into being power-hungry for the sake of plot. It feels wrong.
 
That doesn't mean that they won't do it, because they have their story. But I won't like it. I want Solas to screw up, realize it, and actually grow from it instead of us getting a "murderknife y/n?" option. I have so many feels about this! Weekes I am sending you my feels telepathically please treat them kindly! Anyway, I think Weekes will do it justice so... here's hoping.

 
Agreed. I love redemption stories. It's part of why I love sparing Loghain so much... I like letting his arc continue to do good things in wake of his incredibly poor DAO decisions.
 
Tragedy is good, but can be too much. Seriously. I just had boatloads of tragedy in my Anders romance last game. Can we have some happy endings here? I feel like poor Solas is the Elven Pantheon Butt Monkey at the moment. :( However, given that Patrick said he actually cried while writing some of Solas's romance scenes, that tells me how much he cares about the character and his relationship with Lavellan. Just hope that carries over into something eventually good and not ETERNAL SADNESS BECAUSE IT NEEDED TO BE SEQUENTIALLY SADDER.


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#48845
k_drake

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I couldn't disagree with these people any more. Other than Solas romance needing more content to feel more full. But to say Bull's is better....

 

*Ryn shuts up now because all the romances are spectacular*

Yeah, I don't necessarily agree w/ this review in its entirety (SOLAS + ME 4EVRRRR :wub: ), but I like some of the points she makes. +1 for including a Terry Pratchett anecdote. +2 for the phrase "I want to see Solas ass."



#48846
tsunamitigerdragon

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#48847
BubbleDncr

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Maybe he's Mythal's lover.

 

Was Mythal's lover killed? Cos he's definitely been stabbed in the Fade version, but not the Emerald Graves version. 

 

Which would imply the Fade one was created after the Emerald Graves version...



#48848
madrar

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I think what madrar is saying is that The Husband/Wife/Lover are the more modern terms used in an allegorical metaphor for ideas which may predate bigger ideas which mortals may have difficulty understanding. The husband being an ancient, established belief and societal system, Solas being the new, rebellious flavour and Mythal choosing to defect from one to the other. So we can choose to see their relationships as literal, or not.

Am I right? 

It also adds far more weight to Solas' "The Lover" tarot card. I love it. 

 

AHAHA, yes. They're not literally lovers.   I mean, it's possible, I suppose... but that's certainly outside the implications of this theory.  

 

They are comrades in arms in a very, very old war- one that has ripped Thedas apart through the ages.

 

It is this war, I believe, that Solas is once again taking up arms for at the end of the game.  It has raged long enough, and he intends to finish it.   


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#48849
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I couldn't disagree with these people any more. Other than Solas romance needing more content to feel more full. But to say Bull's is better....

 

*Ryn shuts up now because all the romances are spectacular*

 

*clicks link and reads artist's comments*

 

Yeah, I gotta agree. I also find this comic less funny now.

 

I love Solas and I'm willing to poke fun at him and his less eventful (on-screen) romance content because, well, I like being in that place in fandom where I can laugh at the things I love. But if the laughter is supposed to come from, "It sucks / it's lacking / this other thing was much better," I don't think the joke is funny anymore. =/


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#48850
k_drake

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I'm willing to see this as a metaphor of their religion or the shift of their socio-political construct from slavery to freedom, and Mythal the wife or symbol of Justice, swaying away from the antiquated, oppressive world view represented by Elgar'nan. I just really don't want to have Mythal and Fen'Harel's relationship be romantic. It's more needless muddying of the narrative.

What you said, and also it makes me irrationally jealous.