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Solas Thread - NOW OFFICIALLY MOVED to Cyonan's BSN (link in OP)


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#50726
Missy_MI

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LMAO, yes. I was really shocked and a tad pained when I first watched this, but if Solas had said those things to me, I would probably have punched him too. Thankfully, my Lavellan was pretty nice, and letting the Grey Wardens stay was the only major thing they argued about (aside from the breakup, but that's another matter), so we never got to this point.

 

Apparently, you can punch Dorian too. :(  Ass-quisitor indeed.

 

Evil punching options reminds me of something. Since we have at least one new face, I feel totally justified in re-posting this. :)

 



#50727
Rabbitonfire

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Apparently, you can punch Dorian too. :(  Ass-quisitor indeed.

I can punch Solas, but I don't have the heart to punch Dorian. He's just too charming.



#50728
_Lucinia

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I always lose it at Broody Beard.



#50729
tsunamitigerdragon

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#50730
dragondreamer

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Oh wow.. yet you get a romance with Cullen where he is naked. Sadly we did not get the one of Solas.. at least yet.. I am still having my hopes up. 

I wonder.. where are you guys from? I know that many are probably from the states.

 

Middle of Nowhere, California :P

 

I know they're always discussed as twins or whatnot, but what if they are the same person, just different aspects of their personality and roles within the pantheon?

Just a thought, though, for a polytheist religion the Elvhen pantheon seems rather... limited and empty.

 

After the revised info, I've wondered if Falon'Din/Dirthamen might have a split personality (my Warden is something like this, so it came to mind).  Or possibly that they were a symbolic representation for the physical/spirit duality of the elves.  But I'm mostly leaning towards the idea that they are separate people, and we simply don't know enough about that unique elven type of relationship they had.  I'm beginning to feel that whatever is going on with them is somehow important to what happened to the elves and what Solas is trying to do.  Dirthamen in particular feels like he's significant somehow, and that will also lead to Falon'Din.  They're both connected to the veil and the Fade in the Dalish lore, and I wonder if there's something more to that.

 

He doesn't disapprove that strongly. He gets kinda huffy and crosses his arms, but he'll concede there's not much harm done and let it go.

 

For what it's worth, I spared the Wardens, which Solas disapproved of far more, and that didn't hurt my standing with him that much either. In fact, I spared the Wardens, prevented him from killing the mages that hurt his friend, and made Cole more human (hypocritical, I know), but I managed to make up those approval points in enough conversations, quest decisions, and elven artifact activations elsewhere that all of them combined did nothing to hurt my standing as his One True Love.

 

EDIT: Also, don't be afraid to stand up to or disagree with your beloved! Couples don't have to agree on everything to be happy and healthy in love! (Heck, come to think of it, I earned disapproval in a lot of quests and conversations. Usually minor "Solas slightly disapproves" when discussing the Dalish or something, but I managed to make it up elsewhere.)

 

I always thought it was a good thing Solas and my Lavellan were like peas in a pod most of time, because when she did do something he disapproved of, it wasn't small stuff.  Allied with the Wardens (got chewed out for this one), and when she made that venatori guy with the Wardens tranquil (she was vehemently against tranquility...but that guy got Hawke killed.  Benevolence met its limits, and he was gonna suffer.), it was a Greatly Disapproves chain.  Those were dark days.

 

Solas: Remember when you wouldn't let me kill those mages?

Lavellan: I didn't kill this guy, I only made him tranquil. 

Solas: *STARES*

Lavellan: *ignoring the staring*

 

Yep... :P 

 


For those who can't watch it, what's in this video is what I'm assuming is the max disapproval conversation between a human Inquisitor and Solas, and near the end Solas says,

 

"I should thank you, Inquisitor. I had spent time with few of your people before this. From the stories, I thought you all thuggish, simple, and crude. Now? Now I know I was right. You have no idea what a comfort that is."

 

It always makes me nervous when he says things like this... 



#50731
_Lucinia

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I find all the theory reading is a good distraction, and healthier than reading fanfic and crying into my pillow.  


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#50732
panamakira

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You know, I'm not entirely sure why I dislike Blackwall and yet with Solas I'm perfectly fine. They both lie about who they are, what they've done, what they are doing...and yet I dislike Blackwall and I'm only extremely frustrated with Solas. Blackwall was always meh to me, and romancing him is "I don't deserve you" this and "you deserve better" that. And Solas does say your relationship with him could lead to trouble, and it would be kinder to not start it. I just...I don't know. 

 

Maybe I just don't feel much depth to Blackwall's romance as I do with Solas'. Idk I'm confused. 

Well I had mentioned this a few pages back but I was trying to decide whether Solas had truly lied to us? If you asked him a question, I believe he was honest with his answers. If he couldn't give you the truth, he would hide it behind a clever comment or question. He omitted to tell us the truth and until the end before he was ready to confess you could see his conflict.

 

I guess it depends how you see it. He would slip now and then and when you would point out, he would immediately mention the Fade. I thought Solas was honest in his feelings and the answers he would give you.

 

Now whether he would answer if he was the Dread Wolf or not, I think he would tell you. How would Lavellan figure that out if she hadn't drink from the Well though? Poor Lavellan.


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#50733
mythlover20

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I'm sorry. I'm not trying to reject your ideas or hurt your feelings. You've obviously put a lot of thought into these theories, and there's a lot of value in them. It's just:


Thank you. I'm not arguing with Solas being the Dread Wolf, who likely locked up the elven pantheon, which started the downfall of the elves, feels terrible about it, tried to use the Orb to fix it, gave it to Corypheus to unlock, started this mess, helped the Inquisitor fix it, then drained Mythal-in-Flemeth body to try to power Plan B. That's pretty much canon, and there's no point in arguing it. (Nor is there reason. I LOVE that he is the Dread Wolf, and would love to learn the truth about the "Dalish Boogeyman" legends.)

I just personally don't see reason in trying to pass him off as multiple gods or historical figures in one. I can understand the theorizing, since Solas DOES display some characteristics similar to Falon'Din (in fact, I got spoiled that Solas was one of the elven gods before I reached the endgame, but didn't know which one, then reviewed their traits to see who, and I guessed he was Falon'Din since they sounded most similar), and maybe Dirthamen since they were twins.

However, the theory has little canon to back it up, so the persistant insistance makes me feel it's born out of a desire to make Solas more special than he already is. Solas does not need to be more special than he is. Solas is Solas. The wonderful, intelligent, interesting, fascinating, wise, restrained, passionate, polite, detached, intense, walking contradiction that we love. He is Hen'Harel, the Dread Wolf, the trickster of the past who upset the established order of his time, gave rise to a worse one, and now seeks to fix the old one to help the people he was likely villified for doing. The tragic, complex, contrite, repentant, sad and weary and lonely, but driven and helpful lone wolf we all adore.

My point is that Solas does not need to be ALSO Falon'Din, Dirthamen, Shartan, or others on top of being Fen'Harel to be more interesting or special. Because Solas is interesting and special just as he is, presented in canon.

Theories are nice, but not needed (specially with such little support from canon =/ ).

I agree with you, Faerunner. Solas doesn't need to be multiple deities in the same pantheon. Is it possible? Yes, but it's not really necessary.

There's also the fact that Elvhenan was a polytheist culture. Polytheist cultures usually have deities numbering in the dozens. Elvhenan has, what? Seven, eight? If you make Solas Falon'Din and Dirthamen that brings it down to five or six. Five or six deities that most certainly do not cover every aspect of elvhen society as you see in Greek, Egyptian, Roman, Norse, Celtic, Shinto, Chinese, Korean, Polynesian, Maori or any real life polytheist culture.

Where are the gods of the arts? There's on for crafts but not arts. There's no scribe gods, no messengers, no gods of the ocean, no gods of beauty, no demigods, no heroes, no...

Crap, I hate getting a mental block in the middle of theorising.

Not to mention there is an entire section of their pantheon known only as "The Forgotten Ones" of whom absolutely nothing is known. In fact there is so little regarding the gods we do know of that we have nothing to go on.

Theorising is so much fun, and big huge kudos to those who do it, but making one character three or four different gods, a general for a human prophet of an alien religion, and whomever else he is? Idk, it's just too much for me to take it, personally.


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#50734
mythlover20

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Well I had mentioned this a few pages back but I was trying to decide whether Solas had truly lied to us? If you asked him a question, I believe he was honest with his answers. If he couldn't give you the truth, he would hide it behind a clever comment or question. He omitted to tell us the truth and until the end before he was ready to confess you could see his conflict.

 

I guess it depends how you see it. He would slip now and then and when you would point out, he would immediately mention the Fade. I thought Solas was honest in his feelings and the answers he would give you.

 

Now whether he would answer if he was the Dread Wolf or not, I think he would tell you. How would Lavellan figure that out if she hadn't drink from the Well though? Poor Lavellan.

Actually, that raises a good point I've been pondering (thanks for the reminder, hon!)

Why doesn't Lavellan know Solas is the Dread Wolf if she drinks from the Well? Well, plot-reasons obviously; but shouldn't some of the priests know who the Dread Wolf is since he is so close to Mythal? If Solas still has the same body he did during the reign of Arlathan, why haven't the Voices clued her in on his identity?


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#50735
Sister Squish

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If I recall correctly, all the statues in the Temple of Mythal were also missing their heads.  This statue seems IMO to be a visual reference to the Winged Victory of Samothrace, a very iconic Hellinistic statue.  It's basically the Winged Victory, but with dragon wings instead of feathered ones.  Pic for comparison:

Spoiler

 

 

Good catch. The history behind it feels like Mythal-y inspiration, too! 

 

Spoiler

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#50736
Brass_Buckles

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here you go. 

 

 

maybe you guys can hear more than me. There is one point where a creepy voice says i think but it's too fast for me.

 

Interesting video... I listened, didn't catch anything new though.

 

Don't be discouraged, this is amazing! I have always suspected that all this blood-related magic in Thedas has been simply sciency stuff that nobody truly understands! 

About the soul transferring: I am suddenly reminded of one of the codexes which you can only read after drinking the well, too:

Spoiler

The Elders ones "weeping" as they enter Uthenera. Perhaps once Uthenera was temporary, until their souls transferred to a new body in order to expand their lifespans. Now, without knowledge of how to do it, they know they are simply going to be sleeping for the rest of their days. 

 

Also interesting.  "Those who cast Mythal down."  Plural.  More than one.  I was looking at it wrong. there is more than one murderer.  Perhaps it was a coup?

 

I have a theory that Elgar'nan, whom we presume to be the head of the pantheon, wasn't.  Mythal was the leader of the gods.  Someone may have wanted that power.

 

Just because I came across it a second ago - what about Cole saying "Never trust half an elf."? I confess, I cannot always understand what he refers to, but I used to think he meant Solas?

 

I think he said that in party banter in the Emprise, so I thought he meant Michel de Chevin, the elf-blooded chevalier.

 

 

In other news, was theorizing in chat earlier with electricfish.  Codex entries suggest certain favored followers could also take the "divine form," presumably dragon.  We theorized that maybe the Old Gods are those followers, not the elven gods themselves.  If that were true, then the reason for the Blight/Calling would be to force them to act toward freeing the ancient elven pantheon, or whomever made the Blight, at least.  It also makes sense they'd be guiding the Tevinter magisters who worshiped them toward the prisons of their masters, perhaps out of compulsion, perhaps out of loyalty.

 

Also it is possible that such esteemed followers desired the godly powers for themselves, or began to doubt the divinity of their gods.  That could have led to trouble.

 

There are any number of theories, and any of them could be correct.


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#50737
dragondreamer

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Actually, that raises a good point I've been pondering (thanks for the reminder, hon!)

Why doesn't Lavellan know Solas is the Dread Wolf if she drinks from the Well? Well, plot-reasons obviously; but shouldn't some of the priests know who the Dread Wolf is since he is so close to Mythal? If Solas still has the same body he did during the reign of Arlathan, why haven't the Voices clued her in on his identity?

 

If listening to the voices is anything like trying to make out what's being said in those audio vids, I can understand why Lavellan is having trouble getting info.  She says as much to Morrigan, that she can barely hear them most of the time.  They may also have a "you didn't ask" thing going on, pff.



#50738
Siha

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Why doesn't Lavellan know Solas is the Dread Wolf if she drinks from the Well? Well, plot-reasons obviously; but shouldn't some of the priests know who the Dread Wolf is since he is so close to Mythal? If Solas still has the same body he did during the reign of Arlathan, why haven't the Voices clued her in on his identity?

Just an idea: Because she is not supposed to know. Mythal directs the voices. One of the cutscenes at the altar on the no-Kieran-path states it clearly: the voices direct Lavellan and Mythal directs the voices ("clever girl"). Mythal has complete hold over her now and decides what she will hear and what not. It is not full disclosure and knowledge. It is Mythal lifting the curtain just at places, allowing for small glimpses of wisdom as she sees fit. So if Mythal keeps Solas' identity secret (and that does not seem too surprising, as we do not know their history), Lavellan will not know. And, seriously, if that happened to me - the Fade conversation between Solas and the Nightmare and whatever else - I still would not assume that the guy next to me is an old god. Really not.


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#50739
Siha

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I think he said that in party banter in the Emprise, so I thought he meant Michel de Chevin, the elf-blooded chevalier.

To me he said this in Skyhold, as a "greeting", just after I committed to a relationship with Solas.



#50740
_Lucinia

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I know that some of Cole's random things he says are references to movies and books.  I think it's a play on "Never trust an elf" from LOTR.

 

edit:  dangit top of the page.  Have a Solas.

Spoiler


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#50741
Siha

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I know that some of Cole's random things he says are references to movies and books.  I think it's a play on "Never trust an elf" from LOTR.

Yes, that was mentioned once or twice. Still, I do not believe they put in such references without using them as second tier references to their own story and characters. I give them that much credit.



#50742
Liec

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Awww Bull and Solas finally seem to be friends.

Spoiler


He was worried that he'd give in to madness now that he's Tal'Vashoth. Solas gave him a pep talk.


"You have me... until I get my orb back, then I'll ditch all you bunch of losers. Elven glory!"
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#50743
Gwyvian

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LMAO, yes. I was really shocked and a tad pained when I first watched this, but if Solas had said those things to me, I would probably have punched him too. Thankfully, my Lavellan was pretty nice, and letting the Grey Wardens stay was the only major thing they argued about (aside from the breakup, but that's another matter), so we never got to this point.

 

You know... this is odd. I did mostly everything in a way that garnered Solas' approval, and even when talking about the Dalish I was kind of hesitant - I still got minor disapproval from him, but nothing noteworthy. Interesting thing, though: I supported the Wardens. That's the only massive disapproval I got from Solas (that disappointed huff said it all) but I never argued about it with him. He just never brought it up. Now, am I totally missing something, or did I actually manage to get so much approval that he didn't care to comment? I.e. are there more Solas scenes I have yet to explore? #.#

 

Totally agree with 99% of what you said. I think the reasons we turn to theory or lore-digging is because we're trying to make sense of the narrative, understand it objectively, and through those actions, ascertain the direction of the narrative in the future. The danger of theorizing is stating that the theory is true and no others are possible. The beauty of theorizing is finding nuggets of truth like bread crumbs through the forest.

MY hope is that if we can understand what was, we can grasp what is and what will be. In doing so I might find additional ways to bouy myself through the heartbreak of the romance and Solas' path as a character. It's an act spurred by faith that redemption for this character is possible.

 

Agreed on both counts. We're expanding our focus on that pain to look at the bigger picture, which helps put it all in perspective, but doing so in a manner that doesn't commit to one particular truth. There is no one particular truth without all the facts, after all, and I'm sure that even past a Solas DLC, there still would be much left unanswered, so it's worth it to speculate. (It would kill the mystery to answer every little thing, after all.)


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#50744
panamakira

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Actually, that raises a good point I've been pondering (thanks for the reminder, hon!)

Why doesn't Lavellan know Solas is the Dread Wolf if she drinks from the Well? Well, plot-reasons obviously; but shouldn't some of the priests know who the Dread Wolf is since he is so close to Mythal? If Solas still has the same body he did during the reign of Arlathan, why haven't the Voices clued her in on his identity?

Somebody, somewhere in this thread pointed out something that I might believe myself and it's that perhaps the voices are speaking all at once and it's difficult to understand so unless you ask them directly they can't give you an answer? So what would make Lavellan ask the voices whether Solas was Fen'Harel or not?

 

I mean we know who he is because of that extra scene so maybe, just maybe the voices are not clear until you have a clear question to ask? I don't know, pure speculation. In my canon, Lavellan does not know who Solas is, so unless there is a specific clue somewhere for her to pick up, I just don't think she knows yet. 

 

Also Abelas not recognizing Solas at the Temple might just be another thing similar to Grey Wardens not pointing out Blackwall wasn't a Warden. I'm gonna assume plot reasons?



#50745
_Lucinia

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Also Abelas not recognizing Solas at the Temple might just be another thing similar to Grey Wardens not pointing out Blackwall wasn't a Warden. I'm gonna assume plot reasons?

We have no idea when Abelas was born, or what interactions he actually had with the Pantheon.  He might not have ever seen Fen'Harel.  


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#50746
phyreblade74

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You know, I'm not entirely sure why I dislike Blackwall and yet with Solas I'm perfectly fine. They both lie about who they are, what they've done, what they are doing...and yet I dislike Blackwall and I'm only extremely frustrated with Solas. Blackwall was always meh to me, and romancing him is "I don't deserve you" this and "you deserve better" that. And Solas does say your relationship with him could lead to trouble, and it would be kinder to not start it. I just...I don't know. 

 

Maybe I just don't feel much depth to Blackwall's romance as I do with Solas'. Idk I'm confused. 

 

 

 

*snip*

 

Simple:

Solas is a god.  We know this, because he never calls himself such a thing.  That's what he says, that anyone who has to prove they're a god, is not.  Bottom line, he is unfathomable, fascinating, and meaningful every time he only says something, even.  And when he messes up, it's because he's trying to save people from slavery and degradation.

 

Blackwall, otoh, is a criminal hiding from his crimes who finally becomes frustrated by the lies he can no longer keep up with so that he uses you to find answers by picking through old, abandoned camps for understanding.  When he messed up, it was only because he wanted to be paid a ton of money, and that resulted in a bunch of little kids being slaughtered.


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#50747
Gwyvian

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We have no idea when Abelas was born, or what interactions he actually had with the Pantheon.  He might not have ever seen Fen'Harel.  

 

Or if he would recognize Fen'Harel in this particular guise.... yet, it is curious that Abelas somehow spots that he's different. What gave it away, I wonder? And if something gave it away, why did he not jump to the right conclusion?

 

It could just be a random thing that Solas suddenly garners his respect, buuuut.... that's a shady answer to me.



#50748
LliiraAnna

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Somebody, somewhere in this thread pointed out something that I might believe myself and it's that perhaps the voices are speaking all at once and it's difficult to understand so unless you ask them directly they can't give you an answer? So what would make Lavellan ask the voices whether Solas was Fen'Harel or not?

 

I mean we know who he is because of that extra scene so maybe, just maybe the voices are not clear until you have a clear question to ask? I don't know, pure speculation. In my canon, Lavellan does not know who Solas is, so unless there is a specific clue somewhere for her to pick up, I just don't think she knows yet. 

 

Also Abelas not recognizing Solas at the Temple might just be another thing similar to Grey Wardens not pointing out Blackwall wasn't a Warden. I'm gonna assume plot reasons?

About Wardens not recognizing Blackwall: I am going to copy-paste what people said about that on tvtropes, because that's the most likely explanation:

 

Well of the named Wardens, Clarel never got close enough to Blackwall to see him and was rather preoccupied at the time, whilst Loghain, Stroud and Alistair simply never met the man, the same way that Stroud never met Duncan or Alistair hasn't met Wardens at their main stronghold. As for the rest, how many of them would have actually met the real Blackwall seeing as at the time of his death he was wandering around alone recruiting people? Note that despite the Inquisitor at Skyhold being one of the biggest names in two countries, all Iron Bull has to do is slap some common armour and get you to be silent and none of your own grunts recognise you as their leader; just because you know of someone doesn't mean you would recognise them if you had never met before, and with large organisations nobody is going to recognize everyone.

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#50749
panamakira

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We have no idea when Abelas was born, or what interactions he actually had with the Pantheon.  He might not have ever seen Fen'Harel.  

Yeah true OR that other theory about Fen'Harel taking over his body. Weekes never said if Solas is physically Fen'Harel or if he co-exists with Solas in the same body.


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#50750
Guest_Faerunner_*

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Well I had mentioned this a few pages back but I was trying to decide whether Solas had truly lied to us? If you asked him a question, I believe he was honest with his answers. If he couldn't give you the truth, he would hide it behind a clever comment or question. He omitted to tell us the truth and until the end before he was ready to confess you could see his conflict.
 
I guess it depends how you see it. He would slip now and then and when you would point out, he would immediately mention the Fade. I thought Solas was honest in his feelings and the answers he would give you.
 
Now whether he would answer if he was the Dread Wolf or not, I think he would tell you. How would Lavellan figure that out if she hadn't drink from the Well though? Poor Lavellan.


If he doesn't lie directly, he lies by omission. (As in, omits the facts.)

When you first talk to him in Haven, he mentions that he thinks an artifact might have caused the explosion that caused the Breach, but omits to tell you he know exactly what kind of artifact it is.

When the Herald is coronated the Inquisitor, he pulls you aside and mentions that he knows that mysterious orb Corypheus used when he attacked Haven was an elven artifact and he wants you to help retrieve it unharmed. Again, omits that he knows because the orb was his and he was the one who gave it to Corypheus.

Then when other characters ask him how he knows so much, he tells clever "technically true"ths or {rom a certain point of view" truths, but never outright lies - unless you count when he talks to Blackwall of Val Royeaux. Solas claims he saw it as a small settlement of market tents in the mud in the Fade, though it's likely he actually saw it in person. (Including the smell.)

I think the only time he lies directly is if the Inquisitor talks to him right after the Orlesian Ball, where he mentions how much he missed the dangers of court intrigue. If you ask him directly "When were you at court?" He immediately starts to backpedal, and protest that an elven apostate would never be allowed in court, of course; he only saw it in the Fade. Interesting, this might be the only question you earn disapproval of in the game, and likely because you've forced him to lie directly to maintain his cover.

I guess, like you said, it's up to the player to determine how much his omission of facts count as actual lying or not. Since he seems pretty open about his emotions, opinions, worldviews and experiences aside from giving concrete names, dates and ages, I guess it's easier to stomach than "Yes, I'm Blackwall" or "Yes, I'm a Grey Warden."

As for how he would react if the Inquisitor asked point-blank... I think it depends on the context or timing. He might protest fumblingly like he did about when he was at court. More likely, I think it would be "an armor-piercing question." I think his face would give him away, and then the ball would be in the Inquisitor's court.

Just my view.
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