153435 réponses à ce sujet

[BoscoBread]

Also, the way I see it: If they can write a story of redemption for LOGHAIN, and have him potentially live past DAI (if the player so chooses), they can include a story of (semi?)-redemption for Solas. If they can include the option to let the Morrigan perform her morally ambiguous ritual in DAO, and let ARCHITECT survive DAA so he can continue his morally ambiguous plans, they can include the option for the player (in future DLC and games) to not have to cut off Solas' head. If they can write a happy ending DLC for Male Wardens who romanced MORRIGAN, they can include something for Solas.

This(you and I are often on the same wavelength).  It's not that I HATE tragedies. I actually really enjoyed the ending of Mass Effect 3(Sorry/not sorry...maybe i just forced myself to deal with it) but to me it made sense.  It was ridiculous, no doubt,  but in its way it kind of felt right. 

 

I don't think it would be cheap or lazy to give Solas a happy ending - even without the romance.  There is a lot of stuff in the game about accepting change and moving on accordingly.   I think - whatever happens - trying to make Solas see that and understand that would be so powerful for his character.  Like with Cole's quest for example, I feel that his insistence on keeping Cole a spirit was really wrapped up in his own his baggage - whatever that was.

[tsunamitigerdragon]

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[Andir]

I wasn't replying to anyone in particular, but I love the responses. : D No, it's just recently I've been seeing this stigma that tragic endings are inherently bad and shouldn't be ventured into, and in Dragon Age (not this thread particular, just I've been seeing a lot of it around DA stuff) that a tragic ending is common and boring. If you're a person like me who likes that particular thing, it's just disheartening to see all the time when there hasn't even been an example of it. Like I said, I'm rooting for you guys < 3 it just gets a bit much to see that stigma all the time. (Again, not this thread in particular.)

 

No matter what happens, I'll be disappointed if Solas' ending lessens his character by sacrificing his character's integrity, morals, or plot value for the sake of an ending. If he is stuck into a happy or tragic ending and it doesn't fit, or feels forced, then I'll be severely sad. If we don't get closure I'll be sad. It's just I don't think a character always has to end in the "happy" sense for it to be a good ending.

 

But yeah, don't want to be a pain! Definitely rooting for you guys. Just have some personal preference difference. < 3

[Sable Rhapsody]

At any rate, our World States may have some say in what road Solas chooses or is forced down.

 

If this is the case, I will shamelessly muck with my World States to get a happy (or at least not horrifically tragic) ending in at least one playthrough.  I already did the trainwreck tragedy with Hawke and Anders.  I don't really wanna hop onboard the S.S. Heartbreak again for Solas and Lavellan, so soon after killing off my poor Hawke.

[scintilla]

I didn't mean that all happy endings are cliche. I meant, to me, for this particular story, character and relationship arc, I felt like it would be.

 

But, I am not trying to dissuade anyone from trying to be optimistic. Go for it! And I truly hope I am wrong. I would love my Lavellan and Solas to be happy together.

 

I wasn't really talking about your post, I was just picking up on something that zombie said that I agree with and I've seen suggested about Solas's story - that it's objectively "better" if it ends in tragedy. That said, this:

 

"I really really want to be wrong, and surprised, but I just don't see how, unless it got REALLY tropey and hallmark-channely (like, he gives up his godhood to do his Big Plan and is now mortal, consequence free, and him and Lav can be happily ever after)."

 

Is implying that there would no consequences. Hawke can run away with Anders but that doesn't mean there weren't consequences both personal and on a much larger scale. It isn't necessarily a "happy" ending but it's one that isn't pure tragedy either.

 

Eh, I disagree with the tragic endings being overdone. Every romance so far in DA has drama, some much more drama than others, some heartbreaks in there as well, but ultimately every single one so far has a chance for a "happy ending". At least where you can end up together. I think, personally, it would be really interesting to finally have a character that you couldn't. Not an end that lacks choices, just one where that that choice isn't possible. But I'd still want closure. Like Mordin. (even though you can save Mordin, I mean the other path..just an example? xD) It's hurts, but it leaves you satisfied. A good hurt. That's my personal hope, even though I know a lot disagree. (I rarely speak up about this because I'm rooting for you guys, but personally I'd love this type of ending. I just hate it being brushed under "overdone" when it hasn't really happened yet. Makes me sad. )

 

There's plenty of media like this if you're interest is on-the-rails tragedy, which is what I was talking about. I think for narrative purposes, BioWare needs to give the players even less control than they do now but the illusion of choice is why a lot of people even bother with BioWare games.

 

A well written tragedy is one thing. Tragedy for tragedy's sake is no better than a "cliche" happy ending. In fact, it's worse because not only was it badly written but it hurts in bad ways.

 

*re-enters thread*

To me there is no such thing as good hurt!

*leaves thread again*

 

Don't go, Ajna! We need you!

 

Oh absolutely.  Sometimes tragedy is applied like varnish to cheap wood to give a story more depth than it really has, using the emotion to distract from the weakness of the overall premise.  That said, /in this particular case/, given what we know, I do not feel like the Solavellan ending is shaping up to be a happy one.  The operative phrase here being, "given what we know."  In any case, I'm invested, and eager to see how things turn out.    

 

This is the problem we have, isn't it? We don't know what Solas is going to do, we don't know what his reasons are (beyond that he believes he's helping some group of people), we don't know what the consequences will be. There's plenty of foreshadowing that suggests what he'll do will have huge consequences but until we know exactly what those are calling any ending a cliche is problematic. Maybe wait until we have the ending to judge its value, is all I'm saying.

[LliiraAnna]

The way I look at drama - much like violence, it's a means to an end. Drama for the sake of drama will quickly tire readers/players out and will not invoke any strong emotional response in them. It'll be more like "Huh? And now X is killed too, Y turns out to be a traitor and Z commits suicide? Whatever. I'll go read something happier." When too many bad things happen, they lose their weight. People get accustomed to it and just stop caring.

 

However, if dramatic moments are followed by happier ones - it invokes an incredibly strong emotional response. Drama is needed to make happy moments noticeable, worthwhile. And since BW writers are in no way bad writers, I think that they know this; so I hope they won't snowball this story into a big mess of doom and gloom. 

 

Ofc, everything written above is imo only. Feel free to disagree. 

[tsunamitigerdragon]

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[Rabbitonfire]

For me tragic ending feels more cliche right now......guess it's because I can't forgive what happened in ME3 ending....after all those loses, sacrifices and fighting, why can't we just have a simple nice ending, allowed Shepard to live, allowed us to destroy all the Reapers but not also geth and EDI?  Still people may choose the other two endings since destroy Reaper may only begin another loop of chaos.

No, they did this so to make choice seem "difficult", the ending "not cliche", which made me feel really cheap

That's just one game though, that's just a tragedy done wrong and cheaply.. Like introducing a child you barely knew as an assumption that the player would feel empathy. Most rpgs still have an opportunity to obtain a happy ending so it's not yet a cliche.

 

Personally the best kinds of tragedies are when you are invested in the character. You get to know them: what their favorite foods are, learn about their first kiss, their lives and then they kill them. Death isn't always grand, sometimes it just happens without a reason. Since I love Varric,

 

"Dwarves write how they want things to be. Humans write to figure out how things are".

 

Do you want to be a dwarf, Hattress?

[Rabbitonfire]

If this is the case, I will shamelessly muck with my World States to get a happy (or at least not horrifically tragic) ending in at least one playthrough.  I already did the trainwreck tragedy with Hawke and Anders.  I don't really wanna hop onboard the S.S. Heartbreak again for Solas and Lavellan, so soon after killing off my poor Hawke.

What if it's like Mordin in mass effect 3? To do a greater good, you have to allow him to die. If you want to keep him alive, there are unfavorable consequences. 

[Hattress]

To be fair, DA is 1) a different IP 2) a very different story structure and 3) currently in a different place from ME3.  I'm no fan of the ME3 original ending either, but I don't think we have to worry about a repeat situation for DA:I.  At the very least, I'd like to think BioWare picked up a lot of pointers from the way ME3 was received.

I hope so, since BW do listen to feedbacks. Though it is unlikely to happen again, but I can't help worrying. BW did get kind of smug after success of DAO and ME2...

I don't care much for tragic ending itself (I'd be content to see that my Levallan and Solas die together)

But I really really can't go through something like ME3 ending again...especially one happen to Solas T  T

[hellozombie]

I wasn't replying to anyone in particular, but I love the responses. : D No, it's just recently I've been seeing this stigma that tragic endings are inherently bad and shouldn't be ventured into, and in Dragon Age (not this thread particular, just I've been seeing a lot of it around DA stuff) that a tragic ending is common and boring. If you're a person like me who likes that particular thing, it's just disheartening to see all the time when there hasn't even been an example of it. Like I said, I'm rooting for you guys < 3 it just gets a bit much to see that stigma all the time. (Again, not this thread in particular.)

 

No matter what happens, I'll be disappointed if Solas' ending lessens his character by sacrificing his character's integrity, morals, or plot value for the sake of an ending. If he is stuck into a happy or tragic ending and it doesn't fit, or feels forced, then I'll be severely sad. If we don't get closure I'll be sad. It's just I don't think a character always has to end in the "happy" sense for it to be a good ending.

 

But yeah, don't want to be a pain! Definitely rooting for you guys. Just have some personal preference difference. < 3

You're not a pain at all!  I love being able to debate with people and have it be an enjoyable and respectful experience. I am sorry, I think my response made it sound like I thought you were replying to me in particular, but I should have written it better...I was just trying to restate my original point. People who have the courage to post opposing viewpoints are great, and the discussion is great, and it all adds to the page count, so EVERYONE WINS.

 

 

There's plenty of media like this if you're interest is on-the-rails tragedy, which is what I was talking about. I think for narrative purposes, BioWare needs to give the players even less control than they do now but the illusion of choice is why a lot of people even bother with BioWare games.

 

A well written tragedy is one thing. Tragedy for tragedy's sake is no better than a "cliche" happy ending. In fact, it's worse because not only was it badly written but it hurts in bad ways.

Hear hear! I do think that the very nature of a "choose your own adventure" Bioware game allows players the ability to explore all kinds of different endings, not to mention the various journeys to get to those endings. If the writers at Bioware can manage it (and I believe they definitely have the talent to do so), I would love it if we got to choose between well-written happy and sad endings. Being able to experience both would be the best for me. It's like with the breakup scene...you can mad, you can break if off first yourself, you can be sad, and you can be in denial. That whole scene was written masterfully, and I really hope we get to see that kind of writing in future content. 

 

And if you want to watch something that is on-the-rails tragedy oh man you guys The Leftovers? SWEET JEEBUS THAT SHOW. Don't know if I'm on board for a second season with that one. 

[NightSymphony]

What if it's like Mordin in mass effect 3? To do a greater good, you have to allow him to die. If you want to keep him alive, there are unfavorable consequences. 

It's kind of sad..but I would take those unfavorable consequences.  I let Mordin die :-(  I could not bare to see Solas die.

[Ajna]

I wasn't really talking about your post, I was just picking up on something that zombie said that I agree with and I've seen suggested about Solas's story - that it's objectively "better" if it ends in tragedy. That said, this:

 

"I really really want to be wrong, and surprised, but I just don't see how, unless it got REALLY tropey and hallmark-channely (like, he gives up his godhood to do his Big Plan and is now mortal, consequence free, and him and Lav can be happily ever after)."

 

Is implying that there would no consequences. Hawke can run away with Anders but that doesn't mean there weren't consequences both personal and on a much larger scale. It isn't necessarily a "happy" ending but it's one that isn't pure tragedy either.

 

 

There's plenty of media like this if you're interest is on-the-rails tragedy, which is what I was talking about. I think for narrative purposes, BioWare needs to give the players even less control than they do now but the illusion of choice is why a lot of people even bother with BioWare games.

 

A well written tragedy is one thing. Tragedy for tragedy's sake is no better than a "cliche" happy ending. In fact, it's worse because not only was it badly written but it hurts in bad ways.

 

 

Don't go, Ajna! We need you!

 

 

This is the problem we have, isn't it? We don't know what Solas is going to do, we don't know what his reasons are (beyond that he believes he's helping some group of people), we don't know what the consequences will be. There's plenty of foreshadowing that suggests what he'll do will have huge consequences but until we know exactly what those are calling any ending a cliche is problematic. Maybe wait until we have the ending to judge its value, is all I'm saying.

 

Bah, I'm not going anywhere ...I just wanted to see how it felt to say something dramatic and then storm out of the thread...curiosity sated 

 

I'm just such a massive believer in hope and positivity, that right there is real life magic.

[Sable Rhapsody]

What if it's like Mordin in mass effect 3? To do a greater good, you have to allow him to die. If you want to keep him alive, there are unfavorable consequences. 

 

Hmm.  Interesting point.  Honestly, I'd probably try every possible permutation of outcome first before deciding which one I liked best.  Though I know that for my canon playthrough, as much as it would kill me to do it, I would probably allow him to die.  My Lavellan loves him, but the world is more important than one person.  

 

Though if I get a post-death set of notes from Solas like Mordin's songs in the Citadel DLC, I might very well throw characterization to the winds and go "F*** the world.  Saving the egghead."

[Avejajed]

It's funny because I don't really have any special desire for a happy or sad ending. 

 

I just want something that is emotionally dramatic.

 

I just want to FEEL ALL THE FEELS.

 

I don't want it to be all happy cute if it's boring happy cute.

And I don't want it to be sad if it's going to be like "he dies. the end".

 

I want maximum drama for maximum feels. Happy or tragic. I want emotional impact.

[Lady Luminous]

On the topic of happy/vs sad endings, I get really annoyed when happy endings end too perfectly. 

 

Like with Harry Potter it ended along the lines of "Now that Voldemort was defeated, Harry knew nothing bad would ever happen again." And I wanted to retch. I mean, hello you're married with kids - something is going to go wrong!

[Sable Rhapsody]

Wow, this just turned up in the Cullen thread: 

 

 

*dies*

 

EDIT: This wonderful piece of photoshoppery comes to us from R2s Muse.

[tsunamitigerdragon]

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[CapricornSun]

What if it's like Mordin in mass effect 3? To do a greater good, you have to allow him to die. If you want to keep him alive, there are unfavorable consequences. 

 

That would be a dilemma for me. I let Mordin die in ME3, even though I adore him, but I'm not sure if I'm willing to let Solas die. I just can't.   

 

Maybe if I had the choice to let Lavellan die together with him I might be slightly okay with that. I don't want him to die alone.

[Ajna]

 

The way I look at drama - much like violence, it's a means to an end. Drama for the sake of drama will quickly tire readers/players out and will not invoke any strong emotional response in them. It'll be more like "Huh? And now X is killed too, Y turns out to be a traitor and Z commits suicide? Whatever. I'll go read something happier." When too many bad things happen, they lose their weight. People get accustomed to it and just stop caring.

 

However, if dramatic moments are followed by happier ones - it invokes an incredibly strong emotional response. Drama is needed to make happy moments noticeable, worthwhile. And since BW writers are in no way bad writers, I think that they know this; so I hope they won't snowball this story into a big mess of doom and gloom. 

 

Ofc, everything written above is imo only. Feel free to disagree. 

 

 

Nailed, I tried to convey this the other day.  tears of joy would far outweigh "Meh, ok" wouldn't they? In fact if things weren't all doom and gloom it would foster far far more tears from me... I've had many feels today... not bad ones...

[hellozombie]

Wow, this just turned up in the Cullen thread: 

 

 

*dies*

um apparently I need to visit the Cullen thread and give this person a trophy? I can't even. BUT HOW DID THE HORSE GET THERE SOLAS? OH WAIT, RIGHT, THE FAAAADE. 

[Rabbitonfire]

That is the definition of a nuanced and successful happy ending. Was there tragedy piled upon tragedy prior to this ending? HELLS YEAH. But that is what made the joy of the ending so transcendent and memorable. Now think about how you'd feel if they just made that ending tragic again. No transcendence, no hard-earned joy. Just the same misery visited upon the same character yet again. Pretty boring imo. Lavellen is the only inquisitor that had unavoidable sadness in this game...she deserves a little nuance added to her story in the DLC.

 

Everyone's opinions are completely valid and I respect everyone's courage in stating that they want a tragic ending. Just know that I will pipe up and say HEEEEY NOW WAITAMINUTE NOW EVERYBODY NOW WOOOO BREAK IT DOWN every time. Respectful debate is what makes this thread great!

I love me some hard-earned joy. You sit through the hardship of the characters, experience some tragedy. Every happy moment becomes precious. And when the end comes, the journey was worth it.

[CapricornSun]

Wow, this just turned up in the Cullen thread: 

 

 

*dies*

 

What a time for me to run out of likes. 

 

Why?! Why is this even a thing?! xD And why is it in the Cullen thread? lol 

[tsunamitigerdragon]

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[Arlee]

Wow, this just turned up in the Cullen thread: 

 

 

*dies*

 

What's the full link for this? I wanna type into my phone so I can see it ><