*snip*
I don't see why I should compromise my own morals and let my partner compromise his just because he thinks he needs to do this now. I don't understand either why people distinguish between friends and lovers. I want the people I love to be the best they can. And letting Solas murder a group of mages is letting him foster his anger. And that's not a good thing at all. Solas is in pain no matter if you let him murder the mages or not. You just let one tragedy get bigger and create more suffering if you let him kill the mages. That's why I hate the death penalty. It doesn't bring back the dead, there is no justice in it, it only creates more suffering for those who love the murderer (most people have somebody who loves them).
Hm, alright, I will expound on this. Firstly, I do not view it as compromising my own morals - in-game me is probably just as easy with killing people who I think deserve it as Solas is here, or any of our vengeance-Bioware-companions are. Such as Arl Howe. True, he is a bastard anyway and he needs to be removed regardless of whether you played a Cousland. But wasn't there just a little incredible feeling of "AVENGED" mixed in there? There was for me, and judging by some mods/comments I've seen floating around the net, I'm far from the only one. I would say Loghain, too, but that wouldn't be fair, as he is so integrally the villainous character of DA:O and if you want Alistair as king in the right way (or not as king, there are variations, after all) then it's not a question of morals. But I have to add to this that you can chose a morally "whiter" option and make him a Warden - yet I'm sure that people's reasons for killing him anyway weren't always meta-driven. I saw a different side of him in the books which really changed his character for me and I started regretting meta-killing him. So, as I said, Loghain is kind of unfair to list here.
I also believe that it would be a mistake to constantly judge such decisions based on modern morals - human history is brimming with times when killing someone for whatever reason was pretty acceptable throughout the ranks - in my vision of DA, we're not living in a world where killing is wrong. I stop Garrus in ME, for instance, because I feel that should be a world where humans have a moral compass that is at least based on today's, if not identical. I could let him snipe Sidonis, because I'm a soldier and killing is pretty routine work, right? It's not so simple, however. It really bothers me, the player, when such things go on, but why should I limit my fantasy characters to my own morals? What do I learn about my own dark half (and our history) if I am unwilling to even look upon the concept? Can I not accept that this is (in some perspectives) and always was an intrinsic element to our existence? I am not talking about killing people in real life, I am repulsed by the idea in general, but I do want to understand. I feel that as a civilization we cannot grow unless we are willing to look this part of our nature in the eye. So much of our present society demands that we suppress, we ignore, we fear so much that is a part of us. How can we have "control" without understanding? How can we have understanding without looking at this sticky subject, dare I say experiencing its weight, its consequences virtually? But I digress into a broader philosophy.
The reason I distinguish between friend and lover in this instance is because as a lover you share a more intimate understanding of the other person, both their bright sides and their dark sides. I feel their pain with them and it hurts me on a much deeper level than it would for a friend. There are differences - for a friend, that person turns to me for advice and I to them, I would give them that advice and otherwise not interfere too much, but in general I would try and help them stay on a path that I think they would appreciate - which is not always welcome attention. If it's not, then I let it go. For a lover, however... you are a bit stuck there. There's no getting around the feelings and it is far too tempting to project onto them the "ideal" mate we want. I have experienced this extensively on the receiving end of someone trying to change me constantly because it's "normal" or it's "right" and because in general that's what they want in our relationship. I presume to "let go of control" with regard to lovers. If I feel that what they do could jeopardize me being in a relationship with them, I tell them so immediately, and on their head be the consequences. Who am I to presume that Solas needs to go on my straight and narrow path? I supposedly love him for who he is as Lavellan, and that takes the good with the bad. He would not be the same person, the same unique mix, without both qualities of light and shadow.
I disagree that I help him foster his anger, and also that I helped create more tragedy and suffering. I am not responsible for his actions - and his approval or disapproval of my intervention or non-intervention I see is more because of the sheer fact that I chose to intervene rather than stay out of it, and not for any other reason. Yes, Solas does listen to you and not kill them. Does that mean that's what he truly wants? No. Does that mean I helped? Not necessarily. He is an ancient being, and while we do not know this in-game, I would think that a lover would sense that to a degree, if only unconsciously. He has done things magnitudes greater than this and they could all be judged as good or ill. There's always a different perspective to what is done. Plus, I think the Inquisitor needs a little bit of ruthlessness - we've all seen the path that too much mercy can have (Harrowmont). Sometimes being ruthless is called for in a position of power in this type of social system and world. No, I would not have killed the mages by myself. But this anger - it does pass, regardless of how you choose to deal with it.
I do agree that vengeance and justice are not the same thing. (As we've seen all too clearly in Anders' case.) I do agree that death does not solve a lot of problems and it doesn't change the past. However, in this world death is sometimes necessary. Was the death of these mages necessary? No. It was clearly vengeance, a distortion of justice. Yet as I said before, I think that one of Solas' biggest problems is that he fears looking too deeply inward to confront this side of himself. He is always so controlled, so polite - which is nice, but in my experience control is not the answer. He needs to let go in a much less violent way, but at this point, my in-game Lavellan can handle a little needless death if it helps him. No, it's not a good solution for the modern world. No, it's not something I would even remotely be party to in and of myself. But as I said - why does my Lavellan have to reflect that?
I see Bioware characters and by extension romances as lessons to be learned about our own flaws. Most characters have issues that you can help them become aware of or even fix. And by this you learn something about yourself perhaps. If Solas kills the mages you feed his sense of righteousness that is a dangerous thing for somebody like him who values spirits more than people already. He needs be become less radical.
See, here you are saying essentially what I meant. Although, I do not necessarily think that these issues need to be "fixed"; I think it's important to look at the dark alternatives even more closely than the morally right ones, because if you always follow your own moral compass and cling to it tightly even in a fantasy setting, then you have learned basically nothing. You need to understand where they come from, why they are like that to be able to truly help them, and putting a quick patch on it, a kick and a promised whisper that this isn't the right way just won't cut it.
I agree, however, that Solas does value spirits more highly than people and that's not necessarily a good thing from Lavellan's perspective. Yet, I think that this is not the way to convince him. All he will see is that ignorant mages tortured and murdered his friend, and then you, the person he trusts most at this point, supports their side. That doesn't say to me that we're understanding where he's coming from. If we accept spirits as equals, they do deserve justice - and while as I said I don't necessarily agree with the method, this is the price that they pay. I can live with that. To say otherwise would be to make my comments hypocritical when I tell him that I do think there is equality between spirits and humans - and if I don't believe that? Then perhaps I am radical and arrogant to think that humans, elves and dwarves (or possibly just one of those groups) are superior to wisps in the Fade.
Bioware romances are part of their lesson to me, their message of how to be a responsible adult. The romances are usually flawed and perhaps even one-sided because the companions have all these issues that you inevitably have to heal. You become their savior emotionally and that creates an unhealthy dependency of the LI on you for their emotional well-being.
That's exactly what I meant. As a lover, they should not depend on you like that. Thus my decision to let Solas make his own decisions and take responsibility for his actions. I think Solas is wise and does understand that. I let him kill the mages and he did not try to put the responsibility on my shoulders like "you should have stopped me" or something.
As to their emotional well-being... I resent this a little. I myself am not a person without a lot of issues, and I use that in what I do. It's an integral part of who I am, it is what ultimately gives me strength, because I have seen depth and I have been enriched by it. I resent the idea that having issues is a horrible and nasty thing that needs to be cut out, fixed, patched, healed because it's wrong or bad for you or evil or whatnot. There are treasures in sadness and pain, and I think that to try to just eliminate it without the person themselves wanting to take that step by themselves is intrusive and disrespectful.
This does not apply so much to Solas' example - he acted rashly. Yet, I did choose to respect his pain and let him fulfill his vengeance - as well as to live with the consequences of that. I did see that they did something wrong and Solas was the consequence of their actions. Someone has to punish them. Then again, I should add that I did not know if Solas was going to go through with it. What I wanted to see was whether he could actually go through with it - and I wanted to see him decide not to by himself, without pushing or prodding from me. He did go through with it, yet I do not feel guilt over not stopping him.
To me the Solas romance is about being selfish, disrespecting the other's reservations and plunging both of you into a relationship that was doomed from the beginning to end in a broken heart for all involved. There is a REAL lesson to be learned from that romance. In the end you realize how downright cruel it was of you to seduce Solas and make him fall in love with you. He dumps you, but YOU are the one who hurt him a lot more in the long run. Without knowing why, but that's beside the point. That's no excuse. He didn't say why but he said no and you stick your tongue down his throat anyway and make him compromise himself. He should have resisted, he flirted with you and then he lost his self-control too. Both are to blame, but I felt like **** at the end for doing this to him...
I know that the Solas romance seems so very romantic. And in a way it really is. But it's so symbolic to me of how so many people these days rush into relationships without knowing what they're getting into. We hurt ourselves over and over with this behavior.
I know, Solas didn't have to end the relationship, he could have shared. And it could have been a supportive relationship. He could have greatly benefited from ending his self-imposed isolation. But he didn't want to compromise his agenda. And that's something that Lavellan should have respected from the start, that he's not available. In the end he did the right thing by keeping her out of it. I consider that the mature decision. He caved in to his emotional needs, and I don't want to sound harsh, but that was selfish, especially because he knew it couldn't last. He even admits it. He wants to change the world and that should be more important that his personal needs. I'm not sure at all he can have both. He certainly thinks he can't. It's very appealing to think there is a future for a god and a mortal woman, and believe me, I can get carried away by that fantasy. I'm a great romantic at heart. But they are not equals and live in very different worlds even now that she can walk the fade. He knows it. He has a responsibility to fix his mistake. And her responsibilities lie with the inquisition and "her" people. It's best to protect those we love by keeping them out of it. There may come a time to be together when they have fulfilled their duties, but now is not the time for selfish distractions. Solas knew that all along.
My take on this anyway 
I would like to think that I granted him a moment of solace. He believed for a while, and was happy with the belief, that he could have this. I won't go in-depth into an analysis of your stance as I have seen others already do that, but I do want to emphasize the point made by others that Lavellan had no freaking idea who he was - he was the conscious party here, and he chose to pursue it. Again, I take no responsibility for his actions - I think he's strong enough an individual to have been able to shut Lavellan down at the very start if he didn't want her attentions, I definitely do not think that Lavellan seduced him forcibly.
True, I do agree to a point that it was a little selfish of him to get involved - and yet it was incredibly selfless of him to sacrifice the relationship in order to keep her out of harms way and do what must be done. At the same time, I think it a really arrogant move, because he doesn't feel her strong enough to handle the truth. I know he had his reasons and all that, but it would not have killed him to explain just a little more. Still. 
As to "it seems very romantic".... isn't the best romance a Shakespearean tragedy? I do not see it as symbolic of modern rushing into relationships - this is timeless. People have always been rushing into mad romances without thinking and then paying the price for it. Reading literature from centuries ago proves my point, this is a timeless archetype of humanity, and still alive today, which is what makes it so potent for us.
I see what you're saying and for the most part I would agree with you if it wasn't that it involved killing people for him to feel better. Yes, we are going on a rampage across Southern Thedas killing everything on our way to establish the Inquisition, however that's a bit unfair since it's a gameplay mechanic and it's not like we have other options for the most part. Heck while judging people on the throne, I tend to not kill people as often. I don't know, I'm more forgiving in that sense (depending on the character as well, I'm not saying everyone deserves to live, specially in Thedas but killing strictly based on emotion is just dangerous).
Solas is always in control and I agree that is a delight to see even raging Solas but I felt he wouldn't have appreciated killing people based on his emotions. I wasn't gonna give him a pat on the back for killing people out of vengeance just so he could vent his anger and sadness. Not healthy on my book lol
I know it's unfair to pull the "we kill everyone all the time" card - but as I said above, it is part of that world. It is not supposed to be palatable at any time, and yet, it is the way Thedas works. For a complete immersion experience I cannot imagine my Inquisitor being a complete softy with everyone and then viciously cutting down a thousand bandits in lieu of an afternoon stroll through Thedas. So, in a way it should be fair game to use that card; we chose to play a game that takes place in a world that involves a lot of necessary killing - I'm just not sanguine about doing that in a way that the moment it becomes a difficult moral question I shy away from it. Consistency is what I'm about.
See I actually like what you said here even though I feel there has to be a very very delicate balance. I'm a person that likes my privacy so I think what makes me the most uncomfortable is that Lavellan isn't aware of what Solas is and what his powers can do (Heck, we don't either, not exactly). Mind melding, their joining of spirits or whatever you want to call it, sounds great an all, even though I don't think my Lavellan is a spiritual person. She's very practical and all she knows is this amazing connection she has with him. If I was in that situation I would want to know exactly what is happening and how deep this connection is affecting me. This goes to something more deep and spiritual and I think if you're not so inclined to accept those concepts then you have a hard time accepting you have a connection with someone spiritually.
I think you had a much better way of explaining my initial concern but it's not really a big deal. I find their attraction incredibly charming and intimate, so maybe your explanation of them having a spiritual connection is not entirely wrong but I would like my Lavellan to be more informed of what's happening. There are different levels of comfort here. 
Thank you. Oh, but isn't that the wondrous thing about adventure? Leaping into the unknown? Personally I would very readily be willing to explore such a connection with Solas. 
I think my Lavellan would also like to know more, regardless of spirituality, yet keeping the mystery up is half the fun, too. I mean, it gives you something to chew on and dig into. At least for me that's the case. Part of Solas' irresistible charm is his enigma, after all.
Retour en haut
I, too, tend to go stabby spear if I have to queue sans Pocket Tank. It used to be that I mained Summoner, but the class seems progressively weaker each patch, and mechanics increasingly annoying to deal with on a DoT class. Dat MP pool, dat crappy itemization, dat useless Ifrit and Titan (so sick of Garuda).
(More likely) The Orb needs some juice to get it going. Solas sees Cory in his Grey Warden form, figures that he'll blow himself up to give it power, and gives it to him. Solas can just pick up the Orb later. He follows him, confused, to see the Orb blow up Haven instead of just Corypheus, and later discovers Cory's borderline immortality. Whoops.
The Black Fox and his company supposedly disappeared on one last adventure into Arlathan Forest. Considering just how weird the Brecillian Forest is, imagine what the ancient capital of Elvenhan would be like. 
