153431 réponses à ce sujet

[Arlee]

You're totally right that it couldn't have been helped. He had to go.

 

Just like the mages have to go. Because maybe they don't kill anyone this time- but maybe next month one becomes an abomination out of stupidity and kills Dorian.

 

In my opinion.

 

True. I was awfully temped to let them die so I definitely understand. My thought was basically they just went through something crazy (it was their own damn fault) but I thought seeing the Pride Demon turn into a spirit of wisdom as soon as it was free of the binding might have taught them something.

 

Honestly, I dislike that we weren't able to question the mages there. Something like, "Hold a sec Solas" Followed by talking to them to determine if they were at likely to do something like that again or not. Then depending on what they said choosing to let Solas kill them or not. That would have been a much better way for it to go imo.

[flabbadence]

In that case, I need to watch this anime then.

 

Because I'm a masochist.

 

YES DO! It's really awesome XD

[BlueElf2]

In that case, I need to watch this anime then.

 

Because I'm a masochist.

Oh, I didn't dislike it; it's a very good show, though it does the talking heads thing a lot (so much exposition....but I kind of like that, so...). If you're going the masochist route, Attack on Titan is also pretty soul crushing...in a good way (though not as much as FATE/ZERO since you don't really get to know that many of the characters that well).

 

I really hope the resolution to Solas's story does not really end up as one of those dies horribly plots, though. I can take it in TV series, but I feel more invested in my Dragon Age worlds for some reason (I guess because it's actually something I'm interacting with and affecting to some extent).

[Avejajed]

I would honestly be a little scared to see what the body count of all my Dragon Age (Origins, DA2, and Inquisition) main characters combined over all my playthroughs looks like....especially Hawke. LOL.

 

I know right?

 

Poor Hawke. 

[Mims]

Spoiler

I don't think I've ever cried for a fictional character the way I cried for Alexander

 

Spoiler

Diarmuid/Lancer got me. :[ Poor guy just wanted to have an honorable fight. 

[Patchwork]

I know right?

 

Poor Hawke. 

 

I console myself with the thought that Varric probably exaggerated the numbers by like a lot. Especially the parajumping gang members. 

[flabbadence]

Spoiler

Diarmuid/Lancer got me. :[ Poor guy just wanted to have an honorable fight. 

 

Spoiler

Oh man Lancer. Damn Grail wars, why did so many awesome people have to die?  

[Avejajed]

I console myself with the thought that Varric probably exaggerated the numbers by like a lot. Especially the parajumping gang members. 

 

I pretend that's the one thing he got right.

[Siha]

But it wasn't just anger, not... simply anger, at least.  It was injustice, in that case.  
 
Preserving the balance of Order and Chaos that makes free will possible requires death.  Sometimes the only people who have to die are unarguably Bad Guys. Sometimes, though, innocents have to die so others have the chance to live.  It's the trolley problem- the necessary consequences of absolute pragmatism: the end justifying a means that is in itself always morally Good, morally Right.  
 
[following train allegory]

First off, I do not think that there is any inevitable necessity to kill (except for self-defense, I guess). A lifetime of being Batman just forces me to disagree. More than that even I am convinced that killing does not solve problems. Killing eliminates a creature, never a thought. But a creature is easily substituted by another to continue its atrocities. So the killing will never end, but neither will the atrocities. As long as the thought endures, the killing is useless.
Maybe I can put up with a very particular situation, very detailled and sketched out, that allows for "killing was necessary and good". But definitely I will not agree with a generalised "killing is necessary and good, if...". Forgive me, but this is too much to ask of me.

Second, Solas killing the mages has nothing to do with that train scenario. There was no need to kill, however one defines "need", it was pure bloodlust. There would have been a thousand ways to make them pay. There were no negative consequences to letting them live, no people to be saved, no orphans to be rescued. And the "balance of order and chaos" was never threatened by those few ignorant mages.

Third, on a more general note, I do not agree that the end always justifies the means. More than once such thinking led to dictatorships. Who decides when a cause is just? Castro overthrowing dictator Batista and taking over control surely was considered a just cause by many. And for a while, at least. When he tried to make his idea of right and wrong endure by installing a new dictatorship, did those means justify the end? And if so, did they lead to an improvement of the situation? Whatever my personal opinion here, is there ONE right answer? Just as one example, I will avoid further ranting.

Forth, just because I am halfway through to hell already anyway :-), about the train: who is the one person and who are the 5? Is the one person the one who will change history, the one with very important knowledge, the one Mother Teresa? And the 5 are a group of notoric drunks who like to beat up gays? Are the 5 a group of human rights activists while the one is the leader of a KKK group? What I am trying to say is that this question is meant to cheaply provoke thought, but it does not really give much away in terms of testing your character. Would I let 5 or 10 or 15 people die for a single person? "It depends." Yes, if the one seems "worth more". If I know the one and think very highly of him/her and I do not know the others, would I save the one? Probably. Because I can assess what good s/he can do while the others could be a bunch of bad apples.
Now, what am I? Good or bad? I cannot tell.

[NeverlandHunter]

FATE/ZERO: the anime that took all my feels and smacked me in the face with them...multiple times...and then laughed at my pain.

Spoiler

I don't think I've ever cried for a fictional character the way I cried for Alexander

Spoiler

Friggin' Lancer! His death was so awful! He blamed Saber (and I shipped them!) :'( Oh my goodness this anime talk! How did we get on this topic!?

About letting Solas kill the mages. I agree it is murder, but it isn't something that could make me hate his character. He acted out of anger, but given the circumstances I don't hold it against him. I like that I can stop him from doing, and in my most humble opinion that is the best option, but if he wouldn't have stopped when Lavellan said "Solas" I don't think she would have pressed the issue.

[CapricornSun]

Oh, I didn't dislike it; it's a very good show, though it does the talking heads thing a lot (so much exposition....but I kind of like that, so...). If you're going the masochist route, Attack on Titan is also pretty soul crushing...in a good way (though not as much as FATE/ZERO since you don't really get to know that many of the characters that well).

I really hope the resolution to Solas's story does not really end up as one of those dies horribly plots, though. I can take it in TV series, but I feel more invested in my Dragon Age worlds for some reason (I guess because it's actually something I'm interacting with and affecting to some extent).

Oh, I have watched Attack On Titan actually. Soul-crushing and depressing but I love it! (I told you I'm a masochist.) xD

But even if I am a masochist, in regards to Solas, fingers crossed that his story gets a satisfying resolution.

Please Bioware...

[madrar]

I apologize if irresponsible was a loaded word, it wasn't meant to be. It's just every good scientific paper, every good english paper, every good literary analysis, every good new article has a source. Has references. Names. Dates. Quotes. If someone handed me a paper explaining the nature of life, the universe, and everything with no sources, I'd hand it right back to them. If a paper doesn't have a bibliography, end notes, or clearly referenced information it is solely opinion and I can't give it weight in good conscience.

You're free to believe or think or feel how you want. I have no issue with that. But me accepting something as true without sufficient evidence is irresponsible - ON MY PART. Not yours.

 

I completely understand where you're coming from.  There's nothing more seemingly pointless or irritating than being asked to consider theory drawn from absolutely nothing for no other purpose than a "what if" mental exercise.  There is, however, a significant gap between that kind of theory and one that's built on extensive (but circumstantial) evidence.  The frustrating part of crafting those is that they're composed of a million tiny pieces, most inconsequential on their own, each requiring a pointer to both their existence in game and an explanation about their connection to the whole.

 

It comes down to the fact that I'm just really, really lazy.    I could draw up the timeline, establish a basis for believing that Mythal and Solas collaborated in the Andrastean rebellion and the creation of the Chantry as a social organization, gather the relevant quotes from the Chant itself, build the back argument about how OGS souls "work", how reincarnation seems to work in DA, Solas-as-Falon'Din's place in that cycle, and how their inherent characteristics can be used to trace distinct "fingerprints" in events in which various members of the Pantheon are not named outright in the codex, but... ugggh.  Then I realize I could just play the game instead, and that sounds like so much more fun.  

[phaonica]

The heads of the 5 noble houses of Wycome: 2 with sizable military linage, one with social connections, a dwarven merchant family, and one with a title but no monetary assets. They are the most known supporting houses of the new elven council that now consists of members of the Clan Lavellan. Rivel houses and nobles from various Free March Cities-States have placed them on the tracks to the left. On the right tracks is Cole. Cole is at the moment is on the tracks and is being attempted to be killed by a mage due to not feeling like wearing the amulet to prevent this very problem. The mage attempting to kill Cole is standing on the tracks and too busy to notice the train. 
 
Which direction will you switch? 
 
Edit: I should probably make this tougher but I g2g.

Oh wow. I didn't expect this. You're awesome
At this point, yes, it's more of a challenge because you are weighing personal feelings against a known greater good. It probably *should* be challenging regardless of whether you know those unfortunate people or not, but if you are in a position where you are weighing lives, what you don't know can work against them.

In this specific case, I'd save the people of Wycome.

Does this train scenario have something to do with if Solas turns out to be bad, or does it have something to do with him killing the mages?

[flabbadence]

I console myself with the thought that Varric probably exaggerated the numbers by like a lot. Especially the parajumping gang members. 

 

Have you guys read this?

 

http://dragonage-kin...thread=19184955

 

Snapshots of Hawke & Co. contemplating their kills.

[AzureNika]

Fingers crossed that Solas' story gets a satisfying resolution.

Please Bioware...

Bioware doesn't seem very fond of happy endings, or even remotely...fair. I have a gut feeling Solas' is going to be tragic from beginning to end. Now excuse me while I go cry in the shower for an hour or two. 

[modernfan]

The train scenario to me always seemed to be more a question not "who should I choose to save" but rather "should I even intervene?"  What if the scenario is set up by someone evil for the express purpose of coercing the other person into choosing to save his loved one, and that decision facilitates some evil he would never commit?  Then the moral choice would be to do nothing.  I personally think most of the awful stuff that happens in this world is precisely because people feel they have to act, even if the only options are bad.  It takes a strong person to resist meddling without knowing the ultimate outcome.  Maybe this is the biggest lesson Solas needs to learn.

[BoscoBread]

Forth, just because I am halfway through to hell already anyway :-), about the train: who is the one person and who are the 5? Is the one person the one who will change history, the one with very important knowledge, the one Mother Teresa? And the 5 are a group of notoric drunks who like to beat up gays? Are the 5 a group of human rights activists while the one is the leader of a KKK group? What I am trying to say is that this question is meant to cheaply provoke thought, but it does not really give much away in terms of testing your character. Would I let 5 or 10 or 15 people die for a single person? "It depends." Yes, if the one seems "worth more". If I know the one and think very highly of him/her and I do not know the others, would I save the one? Probably. Because I can assess what good s/he can do while the others could be a bunch of bad apples.
Now, what am I? Good or bad? I cannot tell.

I think it's supposed to be your loved one.  If it was my stupid bf he probably did something dumb to end up there in the first place. I'd still save him because god help me, I love that big lug. There is no context though in that scenario.  4 randos and my bf who I've been with for 10 years.  Uhhh...guess which one I'd pick.

 

With Solas and the mages there was some context and I agree with you, it was murder borne of rage.  Yes, you can weave a billion different excuses that they would have been a danger to themselves or others later.   Literally the same can be said of anybody and it's the same excuse that kept mages in shackles for centuries so not jiving with that logic.  I understood and felt bad for him that they killed his friend.  They were ignorant and awful but I couldn't let him do that.  Their deaths would have brought noone peace but him adn even then...would they have?  I still don't think he's a monster for what he wanted to do. It's totally understandable.  I would hope though, that he would have stopped Lavellan if she had tried something like that. 

 

EDIT: Would fully support any DLC that added "Punch the guy in his stupid effing face". 

[Siha]

The train scenario to me always seemed to be more a question not "who should I choose to save" but rather "should I even intervene?"  What if the scenario is set up by someone evil for the express purpose of coercing the other person into choosing to save his loved one, and that decision facilitates some evil he would never commit?  Then the moral choice would be to do nothing.  I personally think most of the awful stuff that happens in this world is precisely because people feel they have to act, even if the only options are bad.  It takes a strong person to resist meddling without knowing the ultimate outcome.  Maybe this is the biggest lesson Solas needs to learn.

You mean, as he says, "action is not inherently superior to inaction"? :-)
Nice viewpoint.

[jawsisinmywc]

I let him kill those mages because that guy's face really annoyed me.

 

So the whole 'bad' Solas thing doesn't bother me all that much, because I know, deep down in my heart...

 

That I am always going to be way way worse than him.

 

 

oh come on, that mage was annoying. He totally deserved it. I'm not that much of a sociopath. Honest.

Oh gosh, I hate to admit it but I had the same thought. Whoever created that dude almost just wants you to let Solas blow-up that douche.

However, I tend to always go with letting them live. Only one of my Lavellan's let Solas kill them. I think of it like this: Solas and Cole are very close. Solas cares deeply for him. I assume Solas also knows about some of the stuff Cole did in the spire. Cole "freed" many mages by killing them so that they couldn't be harmed by the templars. He didn't know. He feels bad about it now. According to Solas' logic though, someone who did something like Cole should be killed. I guess I want my Lavellan's or any non-Assquisitor to prevent Solas from doing something that makes him contradictory to himself.

I also felt bad for the mages, since I assume they came from a circle and the rebellion just forced a bunch of mages who had always been taken care of, out on their own. Don't get me wrong, I support the mages and their freedom, but few of them were prepared to make-do in an environment outside the circles and were just forced to survive by whatever means necessary. I guess I got the feeling this might not have occurred to Solas in that particular moment since he was so clouded in anger.

[modernfan]

Yes - exactly.  It depends largely on the circumstances.

[madrar]

The train scenario to me always seemed to be more a question not "who should I choose to save" but rather "should I even intervene?"  What if the scenario is set up by someone evil for the express purpose of coercing the other person into choosing to save his loved one, and that decision facilitates some evil he would never commit?  Then the moral choice would be to do nothing.  I personally think most of the awful stuff that happens in this world is precisely because people feel they have to act, even if the only options are bad.  It takes a strong person to resist meddling without knowing the ultimate outcome.  Maybe this is the biggest lesson Solas needs to learn.

 

Well said!  @w@   His banter with Varric revolves around that very idea, though in an oblique way.  

 

Solas: "Once, in the Fade, I saw the of a man who lived alone on an island. Most of his tribe had fallen to beasts or disease. His wife had died in childbirth. He was the only one left. He could have struck out on his own to find a new land, new people. But he stayed. He spent every day catching fish in a little boat, every night drinking fermented fruit juice and watching the stars."

 

Varric: "I can think of worse lives."

 

Solas: "How can you be happy surrendering, knowing it will all end with you?"

 

Varric: "I suppose it depends on the quality of the fermented fruit juice."

 

Solas: "So it seems."

 

As we Lavellans know all too well, Solas hasn't learned this particular lesson yet.  We are the fruit juice.  =w=   He cannot simply "be happy", not at the price of giving up on the larger picture.  Nor should he.   Given his place in the DA universe, he does not have the luxury, and we do not have the luxury of indulging him even if he was willing.  He may fail, but as long as he keeps fighting, there is hope.  As pleasant as life with Lavellan would be in the short term, if he gave up his Duty and let the worlds' currents take him, the end (in the ultimate success of the blight and return to a choiceless world of absolute Order) would be all but inevitable.

[flabbadence]

Man, this thread sure made me get personal with my psyche 

[NeverlandHunter]

Have you guys read this?

http://dragonage-kin...thread=19184955

Snapshots of Hawke & Co. contemplating their kills.

Out of likes but this is good
I especially like Varric's.

[LliiraAnna]

The train scenario to me always seemed to be more a question not "who should I choose to save" but rather "should I even intervene?"  What if the scenario is set up by someone evil for the express purpose of coercing the other person into choosing to save his loved one, and that decision facilitates some evil he would never commit?  Then the moral choice would be to do nothing.  I personally think most of the awful stuff that happens in this world is precisely because people feel they have to act, even if the only options are bad.  It takes a strong person to resist meddling without knowing the ultimate outcome.  Maybe this is the biggest lesson Solas needs to learn.

The way I see it, the problem with Solas is that by "helping" he might make things even worse. We don't know what his plans are yet, but I can easily see it going this way. And THEN he'd try to "set everything right" (the way he sees as the right one, anyway) AGAIN, commiting the same mistake. I really think someone needs to convince him that things'll never be perfect, otherwise he'll be running in circles. Only these circles could easily destroy the whole world. 

[Avejajed]

Work is seriously interrupting my internet theory solas discussion smut time. STOP CALLING ME.

 

Ugh.