153434 réponses à ce sujet

[panamakira]

I suppose, E-types don't hang out in games and online forums. :-D

LMAO~ Am I the ONLY ENFP here? But I love hanging out in online forums! Specially this thread. This is my lifeline y'all!

[madrar]

I hope I don't sound like I'm being rude about the theories.  I just tend to believe that the simplest answer is usually the correct one.

 

Not to push theory, but it is simple.  Thedas exists as a philosophical battleground.  Solas' place in within it is the protector of Balance that allows the individual Free Will and Choice.  That is his Purpose, and what drives every action he's taken throughout history.   Everything else falls logically from there.  

 

I could draw up an explanatory timeline, if that would be helpful...?

[Mims]

 

Oh, FAR WORSE.

 

 

 

Yeah, I agree completely. He may say he dislikes other things about other cultures. But he doesn't even hate Tevinter as much as he hates the Qun. Another really good quote:

 

[After Iron Bull lets the chargers die:]

 

Iron Bull: So, you going to let me have it, Solas? Or do I get to wait and wonder?

Solas: What do you mean?

Iron Bull: We've got the alliance with my people. Given how much you hate the Qun, I figured-

Solas: Am I to scold you? Berate you for your decisions?

Iron Bull: Hey, the charges died as heroes.

Solas: I never said otherwise. The truth is, Iron Bull, you are Qunari. I cannot be disappointed in your decisions. As a mindless, soulless drone, you could never make any. 

[Illyria]

Not to push theory, but it is simple.  Thedas exists as a philosophical battleground.  Solas' place in within it is the protector of Balance that allows the individual Free Will and Choice.  That is his Purpose, and what drives every action he's taken throughout history.   Everything else falls logically from there.  

 

I could draw up an explanatory timeline, if that would be helpful...?

 

All right.  Convince me.

[chibielf]

As an aside, I am totally excited for Qunari-centric DLC now.  Was very irritated by the idea before, because no connection to Solas = irrelevant.
 
Now connection exists.  I doubt we'll see him in the flesh,but still.  His ideas are there, a huge part of his backstory is there.  
 
Totally, totally excited.

They announced a dlc?

[Lukas Trevelyan]

I really like the way her vallislin is the same colour as her lips.  Wish I'd thought of that.

I myself hadn't thought of it before. But while looking at other people's slider I noticed a female elf that someone created inspired by Sylvannas Windrunner (I love her), at first I was gonna copy the sliders but then I just kept changing a ton of things, one thing I kept though is the matching make-up+tattoo+eye colour because I thought it looked awesome, just changed it to green to suit my character more :3

[SolaceInSolas]

Super late to the Myers-Briggs discussion and I'll be busy catching up from the posts from last night but...

ENFP here! 

 

Interesting how many NFs there are in this group! 

ENFP pals! Woo! I was begginning to think I was the only one! XD

I hope all you introverts will still love me!

Me+Introverts=


Also
Me+Solas=

[CardinalSin90]

I think quite a lot of us here are actually INFP. I'm not surprised really lol.

I am INFJ :3

[tsunamitigerdragon]

. 

[RynJ]

Well the Qun literally goes against every possible thing Solas stands for. There is no other philosophy that so completely rejects free will and free thought. Those are everything to Solas, and are worth everything and anything.

[LliiraAnna]

My main problem with all of this is that by attributing everything to Solas, you leave no place for everyone else. There are other Dalish gods, there are Old Gods, Forgotten and Forbidden Ones (unless they're really all one and the same) and who knows what else. They should play a role too, but the way you put it, Solas did everything. 

 

As I said before, I do not want to bash theories. Just voicing my opinion on the matter 

[BoscoBread]

I'm inclined to agree. It's theories that attribute too much to Solas that tend to lose me. I don't think they'd make so much of the universe revolve around a character we technically just met. Heck, revolving it around Flemeth would have made more sense from a writing standpoint and would throw people off much less. She's been a mysterious constant in the DA universe from the start.

 

Pre-ME3 flashbacks....too strong....so many brilliant theories....that probably are much better than the actual intended story..... 

I'm with you. I tend to just ignore them - I like a few that are interesting.  People can theory craft to their hearts content, it's not a problem.  They'll(the theories) either be right or totally wrong. In the end, we'll have an answer.  Personally:  It's not interesting to me if he's actually at the center of everything.  Mostly because it removes other interesting people from the equation, consequence for people's actions because you can just blame it on Solas, and makes him less of a person.    It was stupid when the writers had Flemeth doing it.  Flemeth Ex Machina, AHOY!    Glad she's dead.    I want more fluffy Solas talk, shared pics/fics, and hope that those two crazy kids will be together.

[Shari'El]

That makes my head hurt. YOU make my head hurt!

:-)

 

We are not so far apart, you and I.

[Illyria]

 

My main problem with all of this is that by attributing everything to Solas, you leave no place for everyone else. There are other Dalish gods, there are Old Gods, Forgotten and Forbidden Ones (unless they're really all one and the same) and who knows what else. They should play a role too, but the way you put it, Solas did everything. But we don't know. We cannot know, atm.

 

As I said before, I do not want to bash theories. Just voicing my opinion on the matter. 

 

 

Agreed.  I love what the devs have done with the elven lore (and it makes a lot of dialouge with Flemeth suddenly make a lot more sense) but I think there's far more than 'Solas is at the centre of eveything'. He's in danger of no longer being Solas if too much is attributed to him.  It's why I always remind myself 'Solas is the guy who approves of you helping refugees' when I look at theories.  It grounds him in reality.

[madrar]

All right.  Convince me.

 

*deep breath*   Ok.   ...but remember, you asked.   

 

First, a little back-theory on the Song, Harmony-as-Balance between Order and Chaos, and how Option (Fade) and Will (Blood) intersect to create Choice (Magic) in the DA universe.  This is relevant to Solas, trust me.

 

The Song of Creation, and Balance as Harmony

 

Trying to conceive of Order and Chaos in musical terms is a good place to start, since the heart of everything is the Song of Creation, living fabric of the game universe.

 

Imagine a symphony orchestra, led by a single conductor: the Maker.  The (theoretical) original Song of Order is exactly that.  Every player plays the same melody.  It is simple.  It is pure.   There are no harmonies, and no improvisation.  The Song shapes what is, and the conductor exercises full control over every note and tempo change.

 

Note that the blighted Song is also exactly that.  It promises a return to perfect Order, but under the control of a new conductor -a new Maker.  Hold that in your mind, because we’ll come back to it.  The important takeaway is the idea of Order as the first Song, the one that defines the original state of creation and impetus for revolution in the pre-veil world.  This is the time before the Fall, the time of the true Sun’s dominion, when everything sang the same.

 

On the other end of the spectrum is Chaos: utter dischord and dissonance.  Each member of the orchestra is free to choose their own tune, regardless of how their particular melody might conflict with songs being played around them.  Not only is no coherent music created from the whole, but such Chaos doesn’t even exalt the individual musician, despite her complete agency and control, because the potential beauty of each player’s song is lost in the cacophony of the rest.  The forces of Chaos aren’t represented by any one united faction in game (which should come as no surprise, being what it is) though I suspect Andruil and some of the Red Jenny-esque elements of the Forgotten Ones may have come close to actively pursuing chaos for chaos’ sake. 

 

So we have Order and Chaos.  Black and White.  

 

Now we turn to Grey.

 

Musically, Grey is harmony.  It’s neither the single, immutable Song of absolute Order nor the cacophony of Chaos, but a joining of individual melodies in a deliberately shared and orchestrated experience.  Each player relinquishes a small part of their agency:  not to a single all-powerful conductor, but to each other.   It’s a contract of compromise, freely entered, that allows the creation of a Song greater and richer than each player’s individual contribution would be on its own.

 

It is no coincidence that this is precisely how Solas describes the magic of ancient Elvhenan.

 

Solas:  “Some spells took years to cast.  Echoes would linger for centuries, harmonizing with new magic, in an unending symphony.   …It must have been beautiful.”

 

This is immortal Elvhenan in its earliest days, when members of what would become the the elvish Pantheon would have stood first among equals, if they were acknowledged at all.   It describes Solas’ ideal society, the one he desperately wants and is willing to sacrifice for, yet does not believe can persist.  Over and over, he has seen that slowly, inevitably, groups are driven to play ever louder and more stridently, desiring their particular melody to be heard above others, drowning out the rest until the cycle must be reset by violent removal from the Song.  

 

This is Solas' purpose in the DA universe.  It is his great duty, his burden.  

 

As I'll get into shortly, there is a deep, fundamental connection between choice and magic in DA.  They are, in theory, one and the same: the intersection between Option and Will, the power of the individual to literally change the world around them, in game and out.   Solas’ primary concern is the restoration and maintenance of Balance, because balance is what makes the exercise of free will (–choice–) possible. 

 

In this, his objectives are largely aligned with Mythal’s: she offers the world guidance, not command, but the side he’s actually on in terms of the great War is that of the individual.  The People.  That includes you, the player.  His cause is the defense of individual agency, of sentient beings’ ability to choose for themselves. The fundamental evil that he identifies in the blight lies in what it steals from the infected: free will.  Choice.  The blight is a direct, overwhelming threat to the balance that exists at the heart of the DA universe.  

 

Although he places himself in direct opposition to the (false) Sun in this, that doesn’t necessarily mean that he is the Earth’s vassal.  Remember his reaction if the Inquisitor drinks from the Well, and why he is so adamant that he will not.   The Blight overpowers individual Will directly, but the guarantee of its free exercise is also taken by the Well.  A measure of agency is the price of the power it holds.   Like Mythal’s interaction with the mortal world in general, the Well’s power is largely limited to subtle influence and guidance- it speaks in whispers, not shouted demands- but as we see in the Inquisitor’s actual encounter with Flemyth, the drinker’s ability to exercise free will is still ultimately at her mercy.   You may act as you like… until she chooses not to let you.  

 

That is why balance is necessary.  That is why Solas is necessary, as its ultimate advocate and protector. 

 

(As an aside, it is also why he finds the concept of binding Cole so repellent- even if he is the one holding the leash.)

 

A noble purpose, certainly.  But it would be a disservice to Solas’ character not to immediately follow with the list of sins he has committed in its name.  At the Temple of Mythal, he mentions an old saying of his people: “the healer has the bloodiest hands”.  That's certainly an apt metaphor, as there's little doubt he has spilled more blood in service of this cause than any other single entity in the history of Thedas.

 

The blood of the Sun, before the Willing Fall from Eden.  The blood of countless elves during his failed rebellion in ancient Arlathan, compounded during the successful one, and in the apocalyptic slaughter of the civil war that followed.  All who sacrificed their lives for the Andrastean rebellion, and have died in the name of the Chantry since.  The blood of every man, woman, and child killed by darkspawn since he set Corypheus on the path to freeing him as “Dumat” to begin his work anew.  

 

He carries the weight of these necessary deaths – millions of them- because without the preservation of free will and choice, there is no purpose to life itself.   Peace at such a cost would be no different than defeat.  

 

…and so he fights.  

 

*rests her head in her hands*

 

Let that get away from me a bit, sorry.  We're not quite ready for Solas' personal history yet.  

 

Backing up to cover basic Magic Theory:

 

Magic in the DA universe has three distinct sources:  the fade, blood, and blight.  These are Corpyheus' “three wine glasses”, if you remember Solas’ banter with Vivienne.  Two are “natural” in that they are connected to the original state of Creation, the last is “poisoned” and connected to the Sundered Song.  They’re actually interrelated in the actual practice of magic, as we’ll see shortly.    

 

Without rehashing too much primordial history, the fade-shadows of the original elves (created by the splitting of their being when the veil was raised) are innate conduits to the Fade, sustaining their physical bodies and allowing ancient elves to pull a measure of its fundamental indeterminate “stuff” into the physical world.  A common in-game metaphor conceives of the fade as water, while the will of the mage shapes the glass.  The size of the glass is determined by how much fade you’re able to draw.  This is spirit, the contribution of the Earth to mortal magic.

 

The other half of magic is the will that defines the glass, the part that forces the water to take a desired shape.  This will is the individual Song that lives in all mortal blood.  In a way, blood is a bit like carrying around your own tiny Maker.  It’s the physical side of magic, the contribution of the Sun to mortal existence.  Its power to force a given state on indeterminate fadestuff or to change existing reality is related both to the amount and quality that sings the same Song.  (In other words, how “loud” the Song is.)  

 

Aside:  this is true of the larger world as well.  When spirits are forced into the physical world, they are assaulted by the Song that is reality, most driven mad by its volume and twisted to demons.  It’s also worth noting that while blood may be the physical embodiment of will, there’s evidence that the Song is present in non-physical entities as well- it’s just much, much softer.  As we see with Cole, spirits can develop a limited sense of self that can decide, that can shape- but it’s incredibly fragile and weak compared to mortals and must be strengthened considerably to sustain a true, individual ‘self’ on this side of the veil.   

 

So how does lyrium fit in?  Judging from its effect and use by the Templar,  lyrium acts like a solid, physical form of Song – greatly increasing the effect of the user’s will, allowing him to hold reality in place.  Conversely, it seems to amplify both aspects of magic when wielded by mages: how much fade can be drawn as well as how great a change the mage is able to effect with it.  If this observational assumption is accurate, this implies heavily that the blood of the Sun and of the Earth are fundamentally the same material.  Or at least they were once, before the Sun’s blood was twisted to blight and the Song sundered. 

 

In summary, magic in Thedas is the interplay of possibility and will, represented respectively as the Fade and the Song.  (Or to get Bioware-meta, Options and Choice.)  The interaction of these two halves, one drawn from each Creator of the mortal world, is the essence of how magic works in the DA universe and what gives mages the ability to shape the world around them. 

 

I hope that makes sense.  I feel a bit like Dagna here, awkwardly trying to wrap words around something my brain is pretty sure it understands but is totally stumbling trying to get it out right.

 

Magic and the Eternal Triad

 

This concept of magic is deeply woven into the fabric of the DA universe.  This gets a little bumpy, but stay with me, here.  Cyclical rebellion to restore the balance of Order and Chaos is the heartbeat of Thedas, and in every successful revolution we find the same triad at its center: the Wife, the Husband, and the Lover.

 

These three roles are sometimes metaphorical, sometimes literal, but always, always present.   The triad pops up elsewhere as well, but their relation to the idea of overthrowing established Order is deeply connected, and the Earth – Mythal – forms the center, the critical pivot point, in each and every instance.   

 

She must, because this change is a process that reflects the very nature of magic itself.

 

As the Earth, she represents the Fade- the realm of Possibility and Option.  The Husband and the Lover are competing Wills, or Songs, thus when she abandons one and joins with the other, change is enacted on the world.   

 

I know I’m kind of channeling Dagna again, but hold on to that thought.  It’s exactly like casting a spell, but with lives.  Like the universe itself casting a spell.  A different kind of magic, yet still fundamentally the same and explosively effective.  There is a commensurate cost, however, and that price is always the sacrifice of the Wife. 

 

The three critical revolutions of Thedas’ history are as follows:

 

The First Revolution (The Loss of ‘Eden’)

 

Wife: the Earth (Mythal)

Husband: the Sun

Lover: Elgar’nan

 

The Second Revolution (the Fall of Arlathan)

 

Wife: Mythal (the Earth) 

Husband: Elgar’nan

Lover: Falon’Din-Dirthamen (Solas)

 

The Third Revloution (the Andrastean Rebellion)

 

Wife: Andraste (Mythal)

Husband: Maferath (Likely just a human mage, but one whose dreams and actions were twisted, either by Elgar’nan or Solas)

Lover: Shartan (Solas)

 

The events of DA:I may be the first stirrings of a Fourth Revolution.  It’s a tempting thought, but I’m not sure how I feel about that yet.  The blight threatens the return of tyrannical Order in terms of the sundered Song, but it’s still just a threat, not the actual practice yet- there’s no existing tyrannical rule to be directly challenged.  (The mage Circle business barely registers as a social blip compared to the three above.)

 

That said, it seems very likely that Solas is making preparations for another massive showdown with Order, no matter what his specific intentions are.  

 

MY WORLD OF THEDAS BOOK IS HERE.  Will come back to this with Solas' personal history timeline later.  

[Oswin]

 

The Qun? He NEVER lets up on them. He sees absolutely no good in anything the Qunari do. In party banter between Solas and Iron Bull, Solas just rips into them and will not ease up no matter what the Iron Bull tries to say. Solas is a firm believer in freedom; especially freedom of thought. He hates the Qun because they not only conquer and subjugate other nations, and decide what their people can do, how they can live, what they can say and think, but worse; they condition people to blindly accept their enslavement and never dream of anything else. At least slaves in Tevinter or mages in Circles can fight for freedom or find comfort in their own thoughts, but he feels the Qunari take even that away.

 

Beautifully summed up in this exchange:

 

• Solas: Iron Bull. I understand that among your people, you are... what is the term?
• Iron Bull: Ben-Hassrath. Secret police. Spies, basically.
• Solas: You spied upon your own people.
• Iron Bull: Is that so different from Orlais or Ferelden? They have all kinds of people policing them.
• Solas: What they say and do, yes. Not what they think.
• Iron Bull: What you think is what you say and do.
• Solas: No. Even the lowliest peasant may find freedom in the safety of her thoughts. You take even that.

 

And this one:

 

• Iron Bull: Yeah, but they're spirits. You can't treat 'em like people.
• Solas: Would many not say the same of the Qunari?
• Iron Bull: Uh, no, because Qunari don't go around trying to possess people and turn them into abominations.
• Solas: Instead, you conquer them and turn them into servants of the Qun.

 

 

I must say, I found Solas's hatred of the Qun to be so intense. I would say it rivals, heck it's worse than Fenris with his feelings on magic. That always felt a bit like petty hate to me. But Solas on the Qun? Whoa there. 

It really hit home when you take him IB's personal quest and he really lashes out at that elf (whose name I have completely forgotten. Gat? No, did I just make that up?) and is all 'you gave up one life of slavery for another' when he talks of how leaving Tevinter for the Qun was the best decision for him. So harsh to this guy he has only just met. I kept wanting my Inquisitor to turn round and be all 'CALM YO-SELF, SOLAS. THEDAS DOESN'T NEED ANOTHER ANDERS' 

 

I do love hearing him get passionate about things though. 

[Shari'El]

Reposting the Freed Are Slaves codex entry:

 

An ancient mosaic carved by a dwarven master worksman, featured seven entities overlooking a procession of Qunari slaves, bound, and in chains.

Hundreds of years later, another craftsman under the direction of a Tevinter magister alters the original, carving down the seven entities to replaces them with a human tevinter magister as the qunari's slaves' master and the addition of treasure/ loot. The Qunari slaves are unaltered. The seven entities could not have been dwarven. There would not have been enough gold to carve down to place a HUMAN. A group of taller beings, however, definitely would work. The only other group of people tall enough to fit that bill would be the elves.

 

It could be describing something else, and was altered later on to describe magisters enslaving qunaris, the dwarf did say "I don't suppose it's for the same reasons" and since I can't view the mosaic it makes me believe he commented on that for a reason.

Perhaps it described something else, like hostage qunari after.. a skirmish. Or I don't know

[RynJ]

I'm also not a fan of the elves being behind all the other race lore in the universe. They've hinted that they were all connected, specifically to the ancient elves, in the past but it's actually not something I'm all that fond of. Part of this stems from the fact that, before Solas, I found elven lore and the elves in general to be the least compelling faction of Thedas. But that's just me!

 

To make Solas so central to all of these connected histories and almost metaphysical qualities of the Dragon Age universe that I've seen speculated around here would do the character a disservice, in my eyes. He becomes more of an abstract and less of a person, and Solas the person is who caught my real interest. It also doesn't fit considering he himself is always trying to deny that he and the other elven gods were really powerful gods. To have the DA universe revolve so much around them and to be embedded in the very nature of Thedas, Order and Chaos themselves....that sounds pretty traditionally god-like to me!

[panamakira]

Pre-ME3 flashbacks....too strong....so many brilliant theories....that probably are much better than the actual intended story..... 

I cannot stress this enough. I went through the Indoctrination theory. That's all I'm gonna say. The only thing I know for sure is that Solas is the Dread Wolf and that he gave his foci to Corylingus to unlock but that plan went to crap.
 
To quote my mighty Seeker, "But if I've learned anything, it's that I know less than nothing."   
 
 

Nope, ENFP here.

 

ENFP pals! Woo! I was begginning to think I was the only one! XD

I hope all you introverts will still love me!

Haha, they'll run from us! ENFP love! 

[Wheels]

Agreed.  I love what the devs have done with the elven lore (and it makes a lot of dialouge with Flemeth suddenly make a lot more sense) but I think there's far more than 'Solas is at the centre of eveything'. He's in danger of no longer being Solas if too much is attributed to him.  It's why I always remind myself 'Solas is the guy who approves of you helping refugees' when I look at theories.  It grounds him in reality.

 

Since I'm out of likes, have a quote instead 

[Gervaise]

In some ways I wish they'd just left it with Solas going off at the end mysteriously and left out the epilogue altogether, because of the number of theories over who Solas has been in the past and what people try and attribute him with doing.    Then have the epilogue as the prologue of the next instalment and let us get straight into what he is about.

 

One of my big disappointments with Solas, which in light of the epilogue is understandable, is how little lore I really did get from him personally.   Despite the fact I was a mage, he talked about magic, particularly Tevinter magic and the links with the elves, far more with Dorian.   First run through I missed all of that because I tended not to have 3 mages (2 companions and myself) in  party.    Ignored that and currently on second run have gleaned a lot more listening to those two talk but really, considering my mage status and being his lover/friend, it would have been nice if I could have been given the opportunity to learn direct.    Eavesdropping on them really made me feel like some backwoodsman Dalish with only rudimentary knowledge of anything.   Yet I was quite willing to learn from him if he'd only let me.

 

Another thing that bugs me slight is that, correct me if I'm wrong, at the end he treats you no differently if you are his "heart", his best friend or you punched him in the face.   Whilst I can understand him going off without a second glance if you punched him and his "heart" does get that final reassurance it "was real for us", if you thought you were his best friend, you get nothing to show for it.     I feel that does injustice to his character, since he appears to be such a loyal friend and does have strong emotions about things he really cares about, yet his Inquisitor friend get nothing, which if you are a male Dalish (who gets the short end of the stick regarding everything - no elf romance, no reveal or removal of Vallaslin) does seem particularly hard.       In fact he does appear the only character that you could totally ignore, earn constant disapproval or alternatively max out on approval and yet it makes no difference at all in his outcome.     With everyone else your choices do matter, with Solas they appear not to matter at all (unless of course it is something that carries over into the next instalment - in which case I take it all back)

 

Oh yes, and did his catch phrase "It's complicated" ever actually come up in game.

[SolaceInSolas]

LMAO~ Am I the ONLY ENFP here? But I love hanging out in online forums! Specially this thread. This is my lifeline y'all!

I'm an ENFP as well!

[Illyria]

 

*snips all the Dagna*

 

 

I'll admit that was interesting, thank you.  I'm not convinced, but it was interesting.

 

I'm also 100% sure you're actually Dagna.

[phaonica]

• Solas: No. Even the lowliest peasant may find freedom in the safety of her thoughts. You take even that.

Unless you are anywhere near Cole.