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[Mims]

I miss Sassy Gay Friend. Mio kind of ruined it. 

[Little Mama]

Up until he meets the elven IQ he doesn't think highly of the Dalish. From his banter its indicated that it's because how he's been treated by them, that they think themselves above every one else beacuse they are 'true elves' 

Through banter with Cole it's clear that he did 'lock up' _{(put into slumber?)} the 'old elven Gods', but not through spite but to save them from themselves.   

I think he, just as Corry, woke up from his 'slumber' to a world that was so different from what he'd hoped it would become and now he feels he have to put everything right again....

It's true that he doesn't refere to the elves as his people, but Flemeth use that exact term about the elven people. "You make the people proud"  Indicating that Solas in fact might, in some degree, refere to the elves as a whole (not the Dalish)   

Or it might just be that he intends to wake up the old elven Gods again...

[Patchwork]

He doesn't see the Dalish/City elves as his people. Consensus is that he's talking about the elvhen.

 

That said, a lot of things Solas says are still contradictory. Most likely by intention to keep the 'audience' unsure what his end goal will be. Its very possible even he doesn't know what his motivations are. He just knows that he's made a mistake, and he's the one required to fix it. 

 

I think he's conflicted when it comes to modern elves, they're definitely not his people because look at them; shemlens and only 1 in 20 (made up stat) even has magic, something that used to be a natural part of being an elf. But look at them; they're elves and elves are his people.  

[Addai]

Is there a consensus in this thread for the apparent contradiction of Solas' motivations?
By the end of the game, he appears dedicated to restoring the elven people. However, when my Male Human (thus not a romance) Inquisitor asked him, after Halamshiral, who was his people, he didn't seem that particularly invested in the elves.
According to his own words, they were a "lost cause". I could understand an elven Inquisition convincing him they were still worth saving but what about other playthroughs? Was he simply deceiving the Inquisitor?
 
Of course, there is also the fact after Haven he appeared concerned of Corypheus' actions leading to a backlash against the elves so, yet another contradiction.

I don't think it's a contradiction at all. He thinks most modern elves are beyond saving, that they don't even want to be. They're humans with pointy ears who do a few rituals they don't understand. It's why he's more comfortable with spirits, who are more like the elvhen he remembers. However he still believes/ hopes some remnants of what was lost can be restored. You see this in his interaction with Abelas as well as in the post-credits scene. That's my interpretation, anyway.

I got the Knight Enchanter dialogue, finally. Thanks to Ajna for figuring out how to get it to play. It's awesome. I like the obvious implications that the KE is a bodyguard for an elven noble.   Even if I wanted to slap him for saying it's being used in defense of the Chantry. I'll take that as him being out of sorts from being forced to drink tea. (edit: Though he could mean that others like Vivienne are practicing it. I just took it to be a criticism of the Inquisitor because of the context.)

Spoiler

 

 

 

[Avejajed]

Morning! Just got out of a funeral and could use distraction. How's the wiki coming?

[Sah291]

He doesn't see the Dalish/City elves as his people. Consensus is that he's talking about the elvhen.

 

That said, a lot of things Solas says are still contradictory. Most likely by intention to keep the 'audience' unsure what his end goal will be. Its very possible even he doesn't know what his motivations are. He just knows that he's made a mistake, and he's the one required to fix it. 

 

This is what I think. I believe it's not really until the end that he has fully committed (re-committed) himself to his path. Up until that point, he is in a state of questioning whether he was right or whether he is doing the right thing. The banter with Cole suggests he hasn't completely made up his mind. Solas is thinking things over and considering what he should do next. Befriending/romancing the Inquisitor complicated matters also.

 

We know from Weekes, in the context of the romance, he was close to dropping the whole plan. I imagine even with just a befriended Quizzy, he might have come close to changing his mind as well. But he finally makes a choice to break things off. I think that the orb shattering goes along with the symbolism of the Tower tarot card. That moment represents a sudden fall/change in Solas. You can see it reflected in this expression. How his eyes suddenly narrow when he looks back at the Quizzy. Like he's just had a sudden epiphany/ idea, and off he goes.

[LliiraAnna]

For me, his "the people need me" sounded like "Look at what has become of my people. I need to set things right." Meaning, he may not see modern elves as his people, but he'll restore them to their proper state, and then they'll be his people. 

 

...I hope this doesn't sound too weird.

[Janic99]

Working on his face currently...

[madrar]

Dumping this here, because I'm trying to squeeze all my head theory into horrible, clumsy words for the wiki, but don't want to disconnect from the larger Mordin.  Poke at it, kick the tires, tear it apart- I don't mind at all.   @w@   If the idea can't hold up to scrutiny out here, it doesn't deserve the head space.

 

Tranquility, the Seekers’ Rite, and the Soul

 

Attempting to understand Tranquility provides some useful insights into the connection between the world of Fade spirits and that of sentient beings' ‘souls’: underscoring that they are, fundamentally, one and the same in the Dragon Age universe.  

 

Though the precise mechanism is not yet fully understood, we know from observation that the application of a lyrium brand during the rite of Tranquility acts to block the connection between an entity’s physical body and her fade-shadow.  (Or “soul”- the two terms are interchangeable.)  This conduit has its physical source in the forehead of sentient beings- a drastically simplified mirror of modern Cognitive Science’s understanding of the forebrain as the biological locus for formation of intent, or Choice.  In the simplified mirror of the DA universe, this is the critical intersection between an individuals “soul” and her physical body.

 

Given what we believe we know about the nature of magic in Dragon Age, the effect of sealing that conduit is a logical extension.  With that conduit blocked, the mage is prevented from to drawing on the Fade, a critical component required for all magic, and thus is rendered a non-threat as a caster.

 

On a deeper ‘meta-magic’ level, we know from observation that while a mage made tranquil is cut off from emotion, their desire for purpose (the original “fire” in their blood) remains.  They retain the capacity to do, to create- but require an external source to direct that impulse.  Indeed, we also know that tranquil mages do not possess the ability to refuse command.  They are literally cut off from the world of Option, and thus can no longer create independent Choice.  

 

Now that we’ve established the effect of Tranquility on the physical body, we turn to the disconnected fade-shadow, or Soul.  We know from various sources that (with notable exceptions) this half of a being’s existence has very little inherent Will or self of its own.   Instead, it is largely a reflection of the being to which it is attached.  From the perspective of the fade-shadow, the detachment caused by Tranquility is similar in many ways to that caused by the actual death of the being.   Without a direct conduit, the spirit begins to lose what little sense of “self” that connection granted it, transforming over time into something much closer to what we know of as a pure spirit, its core nature drawn from the being it was first attached to: a spirit of Compassion, of Rage, of Hunger, and so on.  

 

Thus what we see in Cassandra’s account of Tranquility being reversed is exactly what we would expect to see.  The mage, reunited with his fade-shadow or “soul”, is overcome by the intensity of his emotions- the concentrated essence or purity of what his soul became while the conduit was closed.  Reconnected, the Will of the individual can once more infuse the connected soul with a degree of reflected Will, the being’s “self”, but as we learn from Solas’ banter with Cassandra, this is a process that takes time.

 

This basic concept raises a troubling possibility in terms of Solas as Dirthamen/Falon’Din regarding the individual agency of his physical body and fade-shadow and the likelihood that an ancient Elvhen version of Tranquility was part of his punishment for the attempted rebellion that preceeded the fall of Arlathan.  Given Solas’ dual nature, the effect blocking the conduit might have had on his independent spirit is of primary concern: not only in what way it might have changed- but also whether we can reasonably assert that the connection was restored in ages since or whether it continues to be blocked in the modern day. 

 

Flemeth makes a pointed remark in DA2:

 

"Regret is something I know well.  Take care not to cling to it, to hold it so close that it poisons your soul.”

 

Given that Mythal is referred to several times as the "Lady of Regrets" this insight hardly comes as a surprise.  There is a sharp parallel, however, in Solas’ conversation with the Inquisitor warning about the dangers inherent to the creation of social organizations:

 

“You must not let false modesty let you pass your power to someone else. There are few regrets sharper than watching fools squander what you sacrificed to achieve.”

 

That particular type of regret is one that he knows all too well- making the evaluation of this poisoning effect on his “Soul” a critical objective in understanding events believed to be put in motion by Falon’Din in the past, and (potentially) the present.   It is possible that Solas continues to exist as a spiritual Dorian Grey- his outward calm and self-control purchased at terrible cost to his disconnected soul.  

 

While I don’t personally subscribe to this theory (I believe it's more likely that he underwent a “Seeker style” restoration of his connection quite some time ago, possibly by means of the Spirit of Wisdom we meet in his personal quest), we should remain receptive to the possibility as a potential means to understand actions that would otherwise seem contradictory or out of character: past, present, and future.  

[madrar]

Morning! Just got out of a funeral and could use distraction. How's the wiki coming?

 

Ave!  It's just a pile of random pages, at the moment.  

 

http://virdirthan.wikispaces.com/

 

If you have time and want the distraction, go nuts.  @w@   Some structure would be amazing. 

[Addai]

For those of you spinning theories about red lyrium, I noticed a comment Solas makes in the red lyrium mines in the Western Approach: "None of this should be here." Any idea what he means? What's the consensus on what red lyrium is?

[madrar]

For those of you spinning theories about red lyrium, I noticed a comment Solas makes in the red lyrium mines in the Western Approach: "None of this should be here." Any idea what he means? What's the consensus on what red lyrium is?

 

I'm not sure we have consensus exactly, but I believe red lyrium to be the literal physical blood of the Sun (just as lyrium is the blood of the Stone) its Song fundamentally sundered from what it once was.  Since it acts as a cancer and its growth is directly useful to him, Corypheus seems to be artificially seeding it wherever his forces go, which might explain why Solas is surprised to find it already there.  

[LliiraAnna]

Morning! Just got out of a funeral and could use distraction. How's the wiki coming?

Well, I made a .doc file with all relevant elven codex entries I could find (https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing). I am currently in the middle of doing the same for humans. Many of the codexes are just background fluff, so I have to read almost. every. single. entry to see if it's relevant or not. 

[Mims]

Solas has plenty of critiques for the ancient elves. He mentions that they were no better than Tevinter to Dorian, and that Abelas clings to the past. I don't think it is simply that he sees the elvhen as better than everyone else, although he certainly has a healthy dose of nostalgia for the old ways. His fixation upon the people seems to have more to do with the fact that he's the one who took it all away from them. He'll never be able to escape the fact that his actions doomed his people.

 

Because of it, he owes it them to fix things. What he considers a fix, we don't know. 

 

There's a story that Solas tells to Varric that I think has a lot to do with his mindset. I'm paraphrasing, but essentially, a man lives alone on an island after his wife and child die. He has no future. The only thing he can look forward to is death and further isolation. Solas sees the story of the man on the island as a story about defeat. There's no noble struggle. No attempt to leave the island. Its just a man who gave up. 

 

Varric, however, sees the story differently. He sees a man that has lost everything, who still has the strength to continue on on his own. 

 

Solas is the man on the island, only the island is the future. His struggle is essentially accepting what has happened, or struggling against it. Solas was considered the god of rebellion for a reason. I don't think he can accept defeat. Not yet. Only problem is, when you're trapped on an island and you're looking to escape, you have a high chance of drowning in your own efforts. 

[madrar]

Question for the lore people around here:  do we have a name, or at least an accepted way to refer to the squat, creepy Cult figure we come across every once  in a while in Thedas?  The one with the candles, and the sacrifices, and that particularly creepy cave where the statue itself is described as feeling almost alive?

 

I think Liz was poking at this idea not too long ago, but I can't remember whether it's just "that weird creepy thing", or whether we have a better term from codices.  

[k_drake]

I think he's conflicted when it comes to modern elves, they're definitely not his people because look at them; shemlens and only 1 in 20 (made up stat) even has magic, something that used to be a natural part of being an elf. But look at them; they're elves and elves are his people.  

Yeah, do we know approximately what percent of the population is mages?  I mean, it seems like a rare and scary gift that most people don't understand, but it also seems like everyone is hiding an apostate in their basement, so....

[Sah291]

 

Dumping this here, because I'm trying to squeeze all my head theory into horrible, clumsy words for the wiki, but don't want to disconnect from the larger Mordin.  Poke at it, kick the tires, tear it apart- I don't mind at all.   @w@   If the idea can't hold up to scrutiny out here, it doesn't deserve the head space.

 

Tranquility, the Seekers’ Rite, and the Soul

 

Attempting to understand Tranquility provides some useful insights into the connection between the world of Fade spirits and that of sentient beings' ‘soul’: underscoring the fact that they seem to fundamentally be one and the same.  

 

Though the precise mechanism is not yet fully understood, we know from observation that the application of a lyrium brand during the rite of Tranquility acts to block the connection between an entity’s physical body and her fade-shadow.  (Or “soul”- the two terms are interchangeable.)  This conduit has its physical source in the forehead of sentient beings- a drastically simplified mirror of modern Cognitive Science’s understanding of the forebrain as the biological locus for formation of intent, or Choice.  In the simplified mirror of the DA universe, this is the critical intersection between an individuals “soul” and her physical body.

 

Given what we believe we know about the nature of magic in Dragon Age, the effect of sealing that conduit is a logical extension.  With that conduit blocked, the mage is prevented from to drawing on the Fade, a critical component required for all magic, and thus is rendered a non-threat as a caster.

 

On a deeper ‘meta-magic’ level, we know from observation that while a mage made tranquil is cut off from emotion, their desire for purpose (the original “fire” in their blood) remains.  They retain the capacity to do, to create- but require an external source to direct that impulse.  Indeed, we also know that tranquil mages do not possess the ability to refuse command.  They are literally cut off from the world of Option, and thus can no longer create independent Choice.  

 

Now that we’ve established the effect of Tranquility on the physical body, we turn to the disconnected fade-shadow, or Soul.  We know from various sources that (with notable exceptions) this half of a being’s existence has very little inherent Will or self of its own.   Instead, it is largely a reflection of the being to which it is attached.  From the perspective of the fade-shadow, the detachment caused by Tranquility is similar in many ways to that caused by the actual death of the being.   Without a direct conduit, the spirit begins to lose what little sense of “self” that connection granted it, transforming over time into something much closer to what we know of as a pure spirit, its core nature drawn from the being it was first attached to: a spirit of Compassion, of Rage, of Hunger, and so on.  

 

Thus what we see in Cassandra’s account of Tranquility being reversed is exactly what we would expect to see.  The mage, reunited with his fade-shadow or “soul”, is overcome by the intensity of his emotions- the concentrated essence or purity of what his soul became while the conduit was closed.  Reconnected, the Will of the individual can once more infuse the connected soul with a degree of reflected Will, the being’s “self”, but as we learn from Solas’ banter with Cassandra, this is a process that takes time.

 

This basic concept raises a troubling potential question in terms of Solas as Dirthamen/Falon’Din regarding the individual agency of his physical body and fade-shadow and the possibility that the ancient Elvhen version of Tranquility formed a part of his punishment for the attempted rebellion that preceeded the fall of Arlathan.  Given Solas’ dual nature, it begs the question of what effect blocking the conduit might have had on his independent spirit: in what way it might have changed- and whether we can reasonably assert that the connection was restored in ages since, or whether it continues to be blocked in the modern day. 

 

Flemeth makes a pointed remark in DA2:

 

"Regret is something I know well.  Take care not to cling to it, to hold it so close that it poisons your soul.”

 

Given that Mythal is referred to several times as the "Lady of Regrets" this insight hardly comes as a surprise.  There is a sharp parallel, however, in Solas’ conversation with the Inquisitor warning about the dangers inherent to the creation of social organizations:

 

“You must not let false modesty let you pass your power to someone else. There are few regrets sharper than watching fools squander what you sacrificed to achieve.”

 

That particular type of regret, of course, being one that he knows all too well- making the evaluation of this poisoning effect on his “Soul” a critical objective in understanding events believed to be put in motion by Falon’Din in the past, and (potentially) the present.   It is possible that Solas continues to exist as a spiritual Dorian Grey- his outward calm and self-control purchased at terrible cost to his disconnected soul.  

 

While I don’t personally subscribe to this theory (I believe it far more likely that he underwent a “Seeker style” restoration of his connection quite some time ago, possibly by means of the Spirit of Wisdom we meet in his personal quest), we should remain receptive to the possibility as a potential means to understand actions that would otherwise seem contradictory or out of character: past, present, and future.  

 

 

I have a theory on what the right of Tranquility is, and what is actually happening with the Seekers when the rite is reversed (touched by a spirit), and how this gives them their power to resist mind control, etc. This is a very common theme in mystic/esoteric spiritual traditions. You have to empty the cup before it can be filled. In other words, you can't unlearn something you think you know. The lyrium brand on the forehead is right over the area associated with the sixth chakra (or "third eye"). The Seekers get their power to resist magical mind control, because they have gained the ability to see reality objectively, whereas before, they were mired in delusion. This symbolism is everywhere in the game. 

 

Solas is skeptical of the concept of power sharing. Like he says, an individual can be noble and walk away from power, but groups never can. I have a theory (political analysis) on the relationship between Mythal/Flemeth and Fen'Harel/Solas (the dragon and the wolf). Political philosophy is one of my hobbies, but I'm reluctant to post it. Suffice it to say, together they represent a cycle -- a cycle Fen'Harel can never "win" because in "winning" he "loses". 

[LliiraAnna]

Question for the lore people around here:  do we have a name, or at least an accepted way to refer to the squat, creepy Cult figure we come across every once  in a while in Thedas?  The one with the candles, and the sacrifices, and that particularly creepy cave where the statue itself is described as feeling almost alive?

 

I think Liz was poking at this idea not too long ago, but I can't remember whether it's just "that weird creepy thing", or whether we have a better term from codices.  

Wasn't it an altar devoted to Dumat? 

 

http://dragonage.wik.../Altar_of_Dumat

[Janic99]

[modernfan]

How does one gain viewing access to the wikispace page? When I follow madrar's link, the page says access is restricted.

[DarthEmpress]

As a Shakespearean scholar, if anyone compares Solas and Lavellan to the hilarious train wreck that is Romeo and Juliet I will have to compose an entire thesis on why that is totally whack.

[k_drake]

As a Shakespearean scholar, if anyone compares Solas and Lavellan to the hilarious train wreck that is Romeo and Juliet I will have to compose an entire thesis on why that is totally whack.

Yeah, Romeo and Juliet isn't the right dynamic.  It's more...Abelard and Heloise, maybe?  Or, better: Cupid and Psyche.  In a similar vein, the couple from "East of the Sun, West of the Moon."

[PearsAndCherries]

-Spoilery post-

Finished my Solas Romance play-through today. I knew how the game ends, but the heart-break is real. Dissapointed with the lack of romance scenes with Solas, though that makes the romance parts that more special. I appreciate that we still get to keep the romance card despite not being able to choose Solas anymore. I hope that in future DLC Solas makes a come back. 

[Sah291]

Question for the lore people around here:  do we have a name, or at least an accepted way to refer to the squat, creepy Cult figure we come across every once  in a while in Thedas?  The one with the candles, and the sacrifices, and that particularly creepy cave where the statue itself is described as feeling almost alive?

 

I think Liz was poking at this idea not too long ago, but I can't remember whether it's just "that weird creepy thing", or whether we have a better term from codices.  

 

Not a lore person. But, you mean like the one found at the altar of Dumat? The "strange idol"? I think that it is just supposed to represent a cult dedicated to worship of Dumat... in DA2, Audacity (the pride demon) is imprisoned in such a figure. I think that's fitting, given Dumat is the "god of silence." He is seated in a meditating/lotus position. I think that Dumat corresponds to the Abyss perhaps? When Corypheus entered the black city, he called on Dumat for help, but then finds the city black and empty....he was expecting to see the maker there. Instead, perhaps, he found Dumat. 

 

[LliiraAnna]

Solas is skeptical of the concept of power sharing. Like he says, an individual can be noble and walk away from power, but groups never can. I have a theory (political analysis) on the relationship between Mythal/Flemeth and Fen'Harel/Solas (the dragon and the wolf). Political philosophy is one of my hobbies, but I'm reluctant to post it. Suffice it to say, together they represent a cycle -- a cycle Fen'Harel can never "win" because in "winning" he "loses". 

Your post made me wonder... I've been thinking about this "rebellion" stuff, and... Let's say that you try to change the current order of things. Let's say that you lead a rebellion against a tyrant, and you happen to win. What now? No matter how much you'd want people to be free, without a leader, chaos will consume everything. People need to follow someone. If you don't become the one who'll rule yourself, or don't choose someone to rule, people'll do it themselves, or someone else will use this opportunity to gain power. But becoming a ruler is acting against what you were fighting for, as is choosing one. But people cannot go on without an actual leader. So, true world-wide freedom is impossible, and you are only "free" when you... fight? So "winning" will not actually make you win, but lose?