153434 réponses à ce sujet

[Siha]

A question to this thread: I keep reading Tiger and Tiger Festival. I need an explanation, please.

 

 

Morrigan is able to transform into a dragon for the final fight after drinking from the well and I don't think she suddenly became immortal. I don't think we know of any magic that can do that. According to Solas, the ancient elves' magic wasn't what made them immortal, that was natural. Mythal had to keep passing down her wisp to willing hosts so I imagine she can't sustain a body forever.

 

Edit: Wait, Zathrian was immortal, wasn't he? But that was a curse? It's so hard to keep track of all of this.

Flemeth (or rather Mythal) can take on dragon form, does so in DAO and DA2. That is what I meant, not Morrigan. However, Morrigan can only take on dragon form because she gets bound to Mythal, being directed by Mythal and executing her will (this gets clearer on the non-Kieran path, I think).

And if you drink yourself, a dragon will appear that is kind of bound to Mythal, which I take as an indication of her great power (because I do not have a dragon to follow me around).

 

However, my opinion is that the concept of immortality does not work if we link it to the concept or organic life as we know it. It just does not makes sense. It tangles up science with esoterism, filling every logical gap with "because it's magic". As if there were no rules at all. I just don't like that.

[BoscoBread]

Mythal being murdered seemed to a big deal, so I don't think body swapping was common for the elven gods.  It took her a long time to come back.  If body swapping was easier, I think she would have simply possessed one of her priests soon after it happened.  Based on Flemeth's trick with the amulet and the arcane warrior in the soul gem, the ancient elves appear to be able to regenerate if they've planned in advance, but Mythal apparently didn't see a need for it (she trusted and was betrayed) and that method was still distinct from bodyswapping.

That and Solas' surprise "So Mythal endures".  I think what she did. How she survived was a surprise even to him.  

[Elven_Glory]

And what's wrong with that? Are video games not like every other kind of entertainment? Who said realism is a requirement? You? Do movies have to be realistic? TV shows?
Some people could use a little disneyland in their lives if you ask me.

I echo this sentiment every bit. Why do people keep complaining that something is "Disney"? It's the happiest place on earth. Maybe more things should be Disney.

[dragondreamer]

Maybe the elves aged until maturity, and then simply never grew old.  The artbook also described that the look they were going for with Solas was "ageless". 

 

 

 

Edit: Wait, Zathrian was immortal, wasn't he? But that was a curse? It's so hard to keep track of all of this.

 

Zathrian's immortality was the side effect of a blood magic ritual he used to bind a spirit to a wolf.  Presumably as a result of using his own blood in the binding.  The Lady of the Forest herself says he didn't rediscover the secret of the ancient elves' immortality.  I suspect he accidentally recreated the original spiritual duality of the ancient elves by connecting himself to the spirit, which made him immortal.  But he did this artificially with blood magic, when originally it was just a natural elven state.

[Avejajed]

I echo this sentiment every bit. Why do people keep complaining that something is "Disney"? It's the happiest place on earth. Maybe more things should be Disney.

Haha I'm a little Disneyfied, actually so when I hear "Disney" used in a derogatory way I bristle like a cat in water.

Probably from my working there. I took a bath in their kool-aid and regret nothing.

[BoscoBread]

Maybe the elves aged until maturity, and then simply never grew old.  The artbook also described that the look they were going for with Solas was "ageless". 

 

I think it's the same with Tolkein's elves and that's where you have to suspend your disbelief.  These are the questions I ask myself:  If you could be immortal, why would you want to look 60?  Why does this other immortal guy look 30?  Do you just age yourself to look wiser or something? Why should that matter then if you all live forever? We're trying to apply logic to something we geniunely can't comprehend because we are not and never will be immortal.  Like we can get the concept on a basic level - yes they will live forever but to understand the full impact of what that means...we will never truly know.

 

I think when the book said "ageless", it means it literally does not matter. Time and age are meaningless concepts to someone that can live forever.  He is literally ageless due to its lack of meaning to hm.

[TanithAeyrs]

There are good arguments on both sides of the body swapping issue.  I personally am inclined to believe that Solas/Fen'Harel is in his original body and he looks 40 because either A: ancient elves could control how they aged/appeared to a degree or B: they do age, just incredibly slowly (for all purposes making them essentially immortal) - after all Solas/Fen'Harel is at least 2000 years old (fall of Arlathan) and could be over 5000 years old (founding of Arlathan).   Time spent in Uthenera could also alter outward aging somewhat (perhaps maturity is gained after the first spell in Uthenera?).   I tend to favor theory B but Mythal in Flemeth's human body (which has been sustained for a very long time - hundreds of years at least) lends credence to theory A also being true or partially true.

 

Solas just doesn't seen the kind of crazy/odd that Flemeth/Mythal is.  However, that could also be a result of being murdered or being forced to inhabit a human body. 

[Colonelkillabee]

I echo this sentiment every bit. Why do people keep complaining that something is "Disney"? It's the happiest place on earth. Maybe more things should be Disney.

Because it's incredibly idealistic. Which translates to unrealistic. Which if people like that, then more power to them. I avoided Morrigan's ending with the warden in happy never never land because I couldn't see my character giving up his family and friends, his entire world to run off with Morrigan. Others obviously didn't feel the same way. I'm not a fan of it personally. Not in what is to me a mature story.

[BoscoBread]

Solas just doesn't seen the kind of crazy/odd that Flemeth/Mythal is.  However, that could also be a result of being murdered or being forced to inhabit a human body. 

 I think Flemythal's particular brand of insanity is mostly borne out of the fact that she has held onto her rage of being murdered for ages and then Flemeth's own anger at her lover's betrayal.  So you got two really angry people screaming inside your head and noone tempering that.

 

  Solas - though he has an incredible amount of guilt - seems to be able to seek solace in his spirit friends and some comfort in the people of the Inquisition, though he can't tell them anything.  That level of companionship probably helps quite a bit.  More than he is willing to admit to himself.

[tsunamitigerdragon]

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[dragondreamer]

I think it's the same with Tolkein's elves and that's where you have to suspend your disbelief.  These are the questions I ask myself:  If you could be immortal, why would you want to look 60?  Why does this other immortal guy look 30?  Do you just age yourself to look wiser or something? Why should that matter then if you all live forever? We're trying to apply logic to something we geniunely can't comprehend because we are not and never will be immortal.  Like we can get the concept on a basic level - yes they will live forever but to understand the full impact of what that means...we will never truly know.

 

I think when the book said "ageless", it means it literally does not matter. Time and age are meaningless concepts to someone that can live forever.  He is literally ageless due to its lack of meaning to hm.

 

If we're talking about the time before the veil, where reality could be altered by will alone, it's possible they could have some decision about what they looked like.  Also some people just look older or younger than they are, it might not have much to do with actual age.

 

It's a book of concept art, and they were explaining why he looks the way he does.  Character design has to express that visually.  It's why he's bald.  But I always thought it was amusing way back when no one could decide what age he was, and the guesses were all over the place.  So the concept artists succeeded.

[madrar]

 

I admit I did assume that Andruil would have been "healed" by body-hopping. If there is another method, there is hope for many sufferers! 

I also assumed that Andruil's armour would be like Samson's when we confronted him - but going full golem is so much more impressive!

 

I have to admit, the idea of Andruil going full golem is based on the faintest scraps of lore: just the Dalish description of "all forgetting her face" once she'd been to the Void a few too many times, in combination with the necessary lyrium armor / weapons crafting link to June, the Anvil of the Void, and the overall golem concept.

 

I could definitely be reading too much into it.  owo

 

You could argue there's potential counter-evidence in the ToM mosaics (depending on your interpretation of the timeline) given that she seems only partially lyrium armored in her depiction.  Personally though, I think there's plenty of room for Andruil's "initial stages" to be captured in mosaic on her way to becoming what she was during her eventual tangle with Mythal- it just shifts the mosaics' theoretical age back a bit.  

 

Theory needs more data.  *makes grabby-hands at DLC*    MORE DATA.

[BoscoBread]

If we're talking about the time before the veil, where reality could be altered by will alone, it's possible they could have some decision about what they looked like.  Also some people just look older or younger than they are, it might not have much to do with actual age.

 

It's a book of concept art, and they were explaining why he looks the way he does.  Character design has to express that visually.  It's why he's bald.  But I always thought it was amusing way back when no one could decide what age he was, and the guesses were all over the place.  So the concept artists succeeded.

It did. I imagine if Lavellan/Solas ever get back together - she's mortal so she would get hung up a bit on the age thing.  Like as a mortal she would be obsessed with omarking time and every year that passed for her.  He probably doesn't even remember how old he truly is. He's probably thousands of years old, why mark that down when it holds no meaning.  Now I'm sad. Even if they do get back together, it's going to be difficult for them.

[madrar]

 

Sylaise builds a pyre of wooden carvings depicting the accomplishments of the rest of the pantheon and watches it BURN TO THE GROUND. How much longer will she tolerate being second best?

 

This made me do a horribly inelegant laugh-snort.   @w@  Stop that.

[TanithAeyrs]

However, my opinion is that the concept of immortality does not work if we link it to the concept or organic life as we know it. It just does not makes sense. It tangles up science with esoterism, filling every logical gap with "because it's magic". As if there were no rules at all. I just don't like that.

I agree that immortality doesn't work according to our current understanding of biology. However, aging is a process in which the body's cells fail to replicate and replace themselves or replace themselves with imperfect copies (mutations, occasionally leading to cancer). Cellular death can be caused by internal factors (reaching natural end of life for that cell, for example red blood cells) or by extrinsic factors (UV radiation for example). Even in human biology many of our cells are capable of marked regeneration (liver cells for example) where others are not (kidney cells). Perhaps Elvhen immortality is linked to a remarkable ability to regenerate damaged cells without mutation as long as the DNA is unadulterated. If the DNA becomes contaminated (interbreeding with humans or loss of connection to the fade perhaps) that ability is lost.

[Siha]

Because it's incredibly idealistic. Which translates to unrealistic. Which if people like that, then more power to them. I avoided Morrigan's ending with the warden in happy never never land because I couldn't see my character giving up his family and friends, his entire world to run off with Morrigan. Others obviously didn't feel the same way. I'm not a fan of it personally. Not in what is to me a mature story.

I am curious - not just a question to you as you probably don't know, but maybe somebody knows - what does Morrigan say about Kieran and the HoF if the hero romanced her and followed her in that DLC (which I did not play)?

If you did not follow her, I assume you get the same statements ("Without the hero, Kieran would not be" / "We parted on bad terms, which I regret") that you get if your hero did not romance her.

[tsunamitigerdragon]

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[dragondreamer]

It did. I imagine if Lavellan/Solas ever get back together - she's mortal so she would get hung up a bit on the age thing.  Like as a mortal she would be obsessed with omarking time and every year that passed for her.  He probably doesn't even remember how old he truly is. He's probably thousands of years old, why mark that down when it holds no meaning.  Now I'm sad. Even if they do get back together, it's going to be difficult for them.

 

 

We'll see.  If we're lucky. 

 

I can understand Solas not remembering his age; I'm only in my 30s, and I forget my exact age now and then, pff. 

[Colonelkillabee]

I am curious - not just a question to you as you probably don't know, but maybe somebody knows - what does Morrigan say about Kieran and the HoF if the hero romanced her and followed her in that DLC (which I did not play)?

If you did not follow her, I assume you get the same statements ("Without the hero, Kieran would not be" / "We parted on bad terms, which I regret") that you get if your hero did not romance her.

I haven't done the playthrough where my Aeden Cousland follows her yet (will edit it in the keep and try it then sometime) but my Trevelyan didn't learn about the warden's involvement I believe until after meeting flemeth. Before then, you ask about his father and she says something vague, like we were together once but he does not know his child. Something like that.

[TanithAeyrs]

It did. I imagine if Lavellan/Solas ever get back together - she's mortal so she would get hung up a bit on the age thing.  Like as a mortal she would be obsessed with omarking time and every year that passed for her.  He probably doesn't even remember how old he truly is. He's probably thousands of years old, why mark that down when it holds no meaning.  Now I'm sad. Even if they do get back together, it's going to be difficult for them.

I imagine Bioware could get around this - after all Lavellan is now carrying around the full strength of Fen'Harel's magic that was invested in the orb, not to mention the possible effects if you drank from the Well of Sorrows and having walked physically in the fade twice.

 

But, even if they write this in (which I doubt - I suspect they will leave it up to our imaginations) there will be a price and fan tears - it is Bioware after all.

 

Leave homage of fan tears at door to the writer's pit.

[KarateKats]

Not sure if it's been posted yet or not... but my Origin just started running a new update on my game. So I think Patch 3 just launched?

[hellozombie]

My theory has always been that the definition of immortality in the world of DA is not the same as our definition.

My theory is that, much like the elves of Witcher, the ancient elves simply aged at a very, very slow rate. They would eventually die, but only after say, 1000 years. But, they had also discovered the process of Uthenera, which could allow them to live for even longer. I feel that Uthenera is less a state of stasis and more a process of regeneration.

This theory makes sense to me when I think about that whole bit of legend, where exposure to humans caused the elves to lose their "immortality". We know now that all of the legends could possibly be wrong. So I think it makes more sense that the ancient elves' exposure to humans caused them to lose the practice of entering Uthenera (considering they were so busy battling for the remains of Arlathan with Tevinter) and over the generations that came after, their life expectancy naturally shortened.

This is just my theory, but it does help me wave that Team Optimism flag high. We know that Solas, by his own admission, is not really a "god" in the conventional way...but he's pretty close. So we can then assume that his "godhood" and "immortality" are not absolute....meaning that he could lose both OR someone else (Lavellan) could gain both. TEAM OPTIMISM GOOOO

[CardinalSin90]

Got a screenshot of that. It's rather sweet.



Do the other LIs do a similar gesture? I know they all do the raised eyebrow thing going out into the balcony. The hand on back, not so sure.

Hehe I picked the worried option "that might not be the end of it" something along the lines and he is like "yes there is going to be much much trouble..but focus on what is in front of you" *stares* haha my heart skipped a beat

[madrar]

Mythal being murdered seemed to a big deal, so I don't think body swapping was common for the elven gods.  It took her a long time to come back.  If body swapping was easier, I think she would have simply possessed one of her priests soon after it happened.  Based on Flemeth's trick with the amulet and the arcane warrior in the soul gem, the ancient elves appear to be able to regenerate if they've planned in advance, but Mythal apparently didn't see a need for it (she trusted and was betrayed) and that method was still distinct from bodyswapping.

 

Right... though be careful about connecting her difficulty to the Pantheon at large.  If you subscribe to Dalish Earth/Sun creation theory, "Mythal" is a fundamentally different entity from the others- her original physical form long dead and outside the realm of Thedas as we know it.  What remains in our universe is the now tattered remnants of her spirit / soul, which is unable to pass through the veil as lesser spirits can.  Since she can't pass into the Fade "crossroads", she can't be redirected to another physical body on death, and is thus forced to haunt the physical world waiting for a sentient being with an open conduit willing to grant her access. 

[Moondreamer01]

Nothing pisses me off more than wondering what the hell is red lyrium truly and how it's underground, which as Addai pointed out once, Solas said it's not supposed to be there. The hell does that even mean, Solas?? Damn you, tell me your secrets!

The way the red lyrium is growing everywhere (Emprise du Lion especially!) makes me feel like a catastrophy about to happen. What's the link between it and Corypheus anyway? We know he's cultivating it through people in the future we can be sent to, but to what end? Is he using the lyrium... or is the lyrium somehow using him? It all comes back to the Blight and its origin I think. In any case, I'm more afraid of the Red Lyrium than I ever was of Corypheus. It seems to be growing exponentially, and nowhere in DA:I do we come across any way of stopping it.