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Solas Thread - NOW OFFICIALLY MOVED to Cyonan's BSN (link in OP)


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#62701
Shari'El

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No offense, but weren't you the one who said "But the 'trickster god' is the lavel he got from the Dalish. He is the god of rebellion, not trickery." Now you're claiming we don't know enough to make a definitive statement?

 

(Where did "the god of rebellion" label come from, anyway? Since DAI came out I've seen so many people call Solas "the god of rebellion," but I don't remember hearing anyone in the game call him such, or see any interviews where the devs specifically called him such. Is there something that I missed?)

 

Note that trickster gods were not necessarily "gods of trickery." They often had specific roles in their pantheon, but were simply called tricksters because of how they used their wit to play pranks, create and/or solve problems, blend in with different groups, switch sides depending on their whim, etc. Hermes, for example, was an emissary and messenger of the Olympian gods, and guided souls to the land of the dead, and helped mortal travelers reach their destinations. However, he was a trickster because he acted as a "bridge" between mortals and gods (he felt comfortable among both), and often used his wit to play pranks on his fellow gods.

 

There's strong evidence that Fen'Harel often used his wits and unconventional thinking to solve problems in his time (like the slow arrow story), could blend easily between different groups (like his love of Orlesian court intrigue and reveling in his disguise as the Inquisitor's "elven manservant"), and more.

 

That's what I assumed out of the codexes from Temple of Mythal. I have yet to read TME.

The codex:

 

http://dragonage.wik...:_The_Rebel_God

 

Andd.... Ninja'd  :ph34r:


Modifié par Shari'El, 25 janvier 2015 - 07:40 .


#62702
LobselVith8

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Nothing definitive but the banter at the temple of Mytahl in front of the Fen'Harel statue - the codex entry is from an Orlesian linguist who posits that the word Harrellan actually comes from a word in ancient elven that means "noble struggle".  So he thinks that Fen'Harel is a more nuanced character instead of your run-of-the-mill trickster god.  He may actually be a god of rebellion - or something of the sort.   I missed that my first time around and was like 'wtf is everybody talking about'.  The statue is off in the corner.

 

I don't really see why it had to be an Orlesian linguist to introduce that alternative viewpoint to Fen'Harel, as opposed to another clan - given how the Dalish have been uncovering pieces of their history, and trying to piece together their lost knowledge about Elvhenan.



#62703
dragondreamer

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From World of Thedas' elven phrases:
 

 

harel - To trick or deceive.  Harellan means "trickster."

 

 

 

I think the perception of a trickster as a traitor or a rebel is certainly a nuance that depends on how you view them.



#62704
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You can read it here: http://dragonage.wik...:_The_Rebel_God

Today I'll be your google, thread! :P <3

 

Problem is the Dragon Age Wiki is fan-edited, and I find frequent errors on there. I don't trust it as a definitive source for that reason.



#62705
Elessara

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I don't really see why it had to be an Orlesian linguist to introduce that alternative viewpoint to Fen'Harel, as opposed to another clan - given how the Dalish have been uncovering pieces of their history, and trying to piece together their lost knowledge about Elvhenan.

 

You really think the Dalish are going to admit they might have been wrong about something?  They seem to take their stories pretty seriously.  I don't hate the Dalish and find their history to be tragic.  I think the elves in general really need their own homeland - one that can't be taken away (again).  But sometimes the Dalish are pretty damn arrogant and absolutely certain they know what happened in the past.



#62706
Pinax

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I wonder, too. Different possibilities...

Maybe it is just his deep belief in freedom and self-control that he reacts to badly.

Maybe he knows what a burden it is to have all the voices in your head.

Maybe the "vessel" is to be sacrificed (we don't know what happened to those who previously drank).

Maybe he knows you should never fully trust anybody, not even Mythal.

Maybe his plan is rather evil and he does not wish the inquisitor to be his strongest enemy later.

... do we have more theories?

I think this has something to do with his relation with Mythal. Not to keen on theory I found somewhere in the net that Mythal and Fen'Harel were lovers, but I think this has something to do with the trust, like: Mythal can be an ally but not at a cost of losing yourself to her.

 

Besides the fact I have an impression that Solas acts in the Well of Sorrows scene like a grumpy cat:

Spoiler

 

All in all he says he's certain only on one thing: that power of the well cannot be given to Corypheus.



#62707
Elessara

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Problem is the Dragon Age Wiki is fan-edited, and I find frequent errors on there. I don't trust it as a definitive source for that reason.

 

Having just loaded up a game and looked at that codex entry, the DA Wiki is currently accurate in that regard.



#62708
Shari'El

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I don't really see why it had to be an Orlesian linguist to introduce that alternative viewpoint to Fen'Harel, as opposed to another clan - given how the Dalish have been uncovering pieces of their history, and trying to piece together their lost knowledge about Elvhenan.

 

Because. Reasons.

Maybe the Dalish being superstitious about Fen'Harel gives them tunnel vision, they seem to be pretty certain of how things happened.



#62709
Elven_Glory

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It seems really naive of us to fall in love with someone we know so little about, and yet here we are...
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#62710
HurricaneGinger

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So if we cry ALOT can we have him back????? :crying:  :crying:  :crying:  :wub:

 

I'VE ALREADY GOT A BATHTUB FILLED HOW MANY MORE DO WE NEED

 

I'm paraphrasing, but I believe one of the disapproval dialogues for Solas after the well of sorrows implies that he enjoys watching those who grasp for power only to be staggered by the very power they are trying to control. 

 

I imagine that's the sort of irony he was going for with Corypheus. He probably smugly thought that Corypheus was going to take the orb, power it up, and then kill himself in the process of trying to access it. Which unfortunately turned into another instance of Solas's pride getting the better of him- he completely underestimated Corypheus's abilities. 

 

I don't think he intended for the explosion to happen. But the fact that he was trailing Corypheus does leave me to think that he did know something was going down, and waited it out rather than intervene. 

 

Ohhh that's delicious. There is a certain pleasure in watching karma do it's work. Unfortunately, karma seems to be on his ass instead. Solas you arrogant idiot...I still love you.  

 

Wait...where did he sacrifice anyone?  He betrays them - in a way - but he doesn't really put them in any danger -- at least intentionally -- for his cause.  He actually leaves. He sacrifices his own happiness to put as much distance between himself and the Inquisition. 

 

And I don't think he views the deaths of strangers as "nothing".  Remember his banter between him and Bull about how he did not enjoy killing bandits.  He does have a heart.

 

He does. He says the only time you celebrate killing someone is when it's personal. He was pretty eager to kill those mages who tortured Wisdom - still it was oddly easy to talk him out of it.

 

Not to mention Solas shows a fondness for tricksters in the game. At one point he asks Varric why there are no tricksters in dwarven literature? He admires Briala (whether or not you help her) because she is an underdog who tries to or does (depending on whether you helped her) overthrow the system using nothing but her wit and limited resources "in a world that looks at her and sees only a pair of pointed ears."

He also shows some tendencies himself, as Blackwall teaches him Diamondback, then he turns around and uses his wit to beat him so soundsly Blackwall as to use a bucket to cover his bits all the way back to his quarters. During the Orlesian Ball, Solas willingly goes into disguise as your elven manservant (complete with Orlesian mask, it's implied), and REVELS in the disguise. He loves the atmosphere of danger and intrigue, is implied to have experienced it in ancient Arlathan, and it's implied he loved it back then too. He revels in playing the Game and being in disguise, spying and tricking and beating people at their own game. He can also troll Sera when he feels like it.

Some important characteristics is they use their wits to outsmart enemies (usually by beating them at their own game), they play both sides of the field, letting different sides think they are harmless and/or their allies and use the information/leverage they gain from that trust to hurt them or help them depending on their whims. They feel most comfortable adopting many different identities and personas instead of being limited to one. (Not for nothing tricksters in many cultures are able to shapeshift and/or change their gender even if other members of their pantheon might not.)

While Solas seems to have grown and matured beyond some of the more wild and unpredictable trickster tendencies, there seems to be still lingering signs and fondness for it on his part.

 

Wolf in sheep's clothing. I really enjoyed seeing him loosen up - makes me hope he'll open up more in DLC...but we did see more than most. T_T

 

It did start going haywire all of a sudden, yea. Though I'd say considering everything, it wouldn't make us "responsible" since Cory would have lived and so on, then doom. What this does is takes away blame period. The conclave going boom is a cost that was worth it, considering the alternative was Corndog being unchallenged.

 

Solas owes us, basically.

 

edit: Wait, actually that still puts the blame on Solas :lol: Because the boom had to happen from our interruption to correct his error.

 

*blinks* I have no idea why I never thought of this.

 

Too sad drinking from the well is an optional choice. Otherwise the inquisitor would definitely be bound to Mythal and as a consequence to Solas.

 

 

We do not know that. We see Flemeth sink into his arms, lifeless. But Flemeth was only a body. And it was old, already failing. We know that from DAO (and DA2, a bit). Mythal might have chosen to leave it and have the younger Solas take her soul in (possibly until a replacement is found) as Morrigan refused to be a vessel. I would not say he killed her or that it was a hostile takeover. "The soul is not forced on the unwilling", but surely it is also not so easy to steal a soul. She cannot have the OGS in Kieran without his assistance either. She needed the boy's cooperation, else she could have just taken it without all the fuss.

 

I am still 100% sure she allowed Solas to take her power. Come on, this is Flemeth - she always has a plan, and she could have beaten Solas to a pulp if she did not think it was worth it, because while not a mortal he is still very weak. I wonder if she even agrees with his plan? She could have just given him her power so he could learn that what he is doing may not be the best choice. Ah well. DLC will hopefully answer that.

 

So, does anyone besids me headcanon that Solas started crushing on Lavellan first? As in... while he was caring for her and her mark, while she was passed out? Like, at first he only notices the big glowy hand because that's the obvious part, doesn't really pay much attention to the body it's attached to, but then, his eyes start to drift away toward her face and when he sees it, he'S lishit.Oh ****. She's pretty cute."

Of course, I imagine he would just cast the thought aside at that point, waiting until Lavellan is actually awake and he gets to kno her before the real feelings start, but that's where the spark first occurs in my headcanon. Before she even wakes up.

Anyone else have Solavellan romance origin stories like that?

 

I'm certain he did. I think he started liking her after she said she'd do anything to protect him from the Circle - he looks so struck, and just stares at her for a moment like "well...damn. that's the first time someone has been on my side." He may have also admired her strength, and will to live - everyone seemed sure she may die. 

 

Guys, all this conversation re. Solas taste in trickery (greatly spoken posts of Faerunner and LobselVith8) make me willing to raise another question, bugging my mind from some time.

 

Do you think the Inquisitor nor anyone in Skyhold could not suspect there is something more about Solas and not ask him question about it?

 

I mean... I know we're limited to get knowledge about the characters from dialogues in codex entries only. In my headcanons though I always imply there were many more interactions between the PC and NPC than it's given to us in the game: it's like obvious the characters couldn't just talk ONLY about the things we see in the game.

 

In RL I tend to be curious, to the limit of asking sometimes potentially uncomfortable questions to people, hence (my headcanon again) I hardly believe that my Quizzie never started to dig in deeper into Solas past, background etc. Funny thing is I suspect the same for Leliana (as a spymaster she like to know everything about everyone), but also Vivienne mentions in one of her banters something like "curious, Solas has so many to tell about the history and the Fade and so little about himself", so it seems it's also bugging her.

 

I wonder from some time how would Solas deal with such "uncomfortable" questions. My best guess (lol, ofc) : every time Lavellan asks him a question he does not want to answer => passionate kiss :D ;)

 

What are/would be your headcanons on such situations?

 

Terrwyn definitely suspected he may be an Ancient Elf later in their relationship, especially after the Temple of Mythal. She never presses too much though - she knows how private he is, and seems to be wounded and still has trust issues. She wanted him to approach her first with any truth; it's like at the Winter Palace...ask outright, and you chances at receiving an honest answer drop significantly.


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#62711
Shari'El

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Problem is the Dragon Age Wiki is fan-edited, and I find frequent errors on there. I don't trust it as a definitive source for that reason.

 

I recall that codex very well, this specific codex is accurate.



#62712
Mims

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The wiki is correct. I've seen the entry in the game. 


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#62713
Pinax

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Also, if you read Solas' codex post game you'll see that Leliana did question him and while he was evasive they had more important things going on than tracking down his backstory - which she did eventually but Solas had already left by that point.

 

Yeah, I know, although... I can hardly accept everyone is ok with his "oh, I saw this in the Fade" or "we have more important things to do" excuse and not to drill with small questions. Anyway, just my headcanon :)

 

Tbh, I also find it hard to accept that it took Leliana's agents so long to discover the truth about Solas' "little village" he was supposed to come from, while Quizzie and his team were wondering and sending troupes accross the whole Thedas. But anyway... these are just dreams of a player who wants moar ;) :D



#62714
Elessara

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It seems really naive of us to fall in love with someone we know so little about, and yet here we are...

Blackwall-mancers are in the same boat really.  He doesn't talk about his past either.  Granted, you actually find out about it in game unlike those who romance Solas (myself included) where he just sods off.  And the optimists are left sitting there going, "When I get my hands on you ....!!"


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#62715
Siha

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Spoiler

Oh yes, he did, didn't he?  :D 

But on the last part, I am not sure. He does, after all, start with something like "I agree with Morrigan on only one thing, the well is an immense power source and should be used to help us" (of course, he uses other words). But I also thought "Well, my friend, who should drink then?"


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#62716
Aetheria

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Guys, all this conversation re. Solas taste in trickery (greatly spoken posts of Faerunner and LobselVith8) make me willing to raise another question, bugging my mind from some time.

 

Do you think the Inquisitor nor anyone in Skyhold could not suspect there is something more about Solas and not ask him question about it?

 

I mean... I know we're limited to get knowledge about the characters from dialogues in codex entries only. In my headcanons though I always imply there were many more interactions between the PC and NPC than it's given to us in the game: it's like obvious the characters couldn't just talk ONLY about the things we see in the game.

 

In RL I tend to be curious, to the limit of asking sometimes potentially uncomfortable questions to people, hence (my headcanon again) I hardly believe that my Quizzie never started to dig in deeper into Solas past, background etc. Funny thing is I suspect the same for Leliana (as a spymaster she like to know everything about everyone), but also Vivienne mentions in one of her banters something like "curious, Solas has so many to tell about the history and the Fade and so little about himself", so it seems it's also bugging her.

 

I wonder from some time how would Solas deal with such "uncomfortable" questions. My best guess (lol, ofc) : every time Lavellan asks him a question he does not want to answer => passionate kiss :D ;)

 

What are/would be your headcanons on such situations?

 

Of course the game can't include infinite amounts of dialogue to cover all the questions the Inquisitor could possibly ask. But what dialogue is in the game does a pretty good job, I think, of covering what Solas' basic strategy is when questioned:

 

1) Saw it in the Fade

2) Must have read that in some book somewhere

3) Look you seem like a nice guy who totally wouldn't sell me out to the Chantry or anything, it's just that we apostates have to be careful about people like you selling us out to the Chantry if we say too much


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#62717
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I don't really see why it had to be an Orlesian linguist to introduce that alternative viewpoint to Fen'Harel, as opposed to another clan - given how the Dalish have been uncovering pieces of their history, and trying to piece together their lost knowledge about Elvhenan.

 

It's a BioWare specialty. They love having humans easily learn more about the elves' past than the Dalish just to show them up.

 

Remember Finn from Witch Hunt? An Andrastian Circle human mage easily figures out that "Eluvian" is an ancient elven word that means "looking glass," just from reading different books in the Circle library, while Ariane the Dalish is left flabbergasted and embarrassed that her didn't make the connection even after centuries of study of their past.

 

Morrigan the human is able to locate, restore, and use an eluvian within a few years with no danger to herself, nor condemnation from the narrative for messing with powers too great for her to understand. Merrill the Dalish elf also tries to restore and use an eluvian, tries for seven years without success, and gets condemned by most other characters and the narrative alike for messing with powers too great for her to understand. (I see if you're a human then elven technology is not too much for you, but if you're an elf it is.)


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#62718
BoscoBread

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I don't really see why it had to be an Orlesian linguist to introduce that alternative viewpoint to Fen'Harel, as opposed to another clan - given how the Dalish have been uncovering pieces of their history, and trying to piece together their lost knowledge about Elvhenan.

Are you just commenting on how that's bullshit that the Dalish can't figure it out or are you telling me that I'm wrong because the codex link is above and it is a scholar from Orlais? (i can't tell because internet fails at conveying tone).  If it's the former, 'eh'.  When it comes to history, I'm kind of the mind that this these things belong to the world. Look at it this way: Both sides of my family are super Italian.  When I go to a museum and see the Roman mosaics I can see where I come from - I see the same high brow, the eyes, the nose.   That doesn't mean I deserve that history any more than someone from Japan. They can be just as enriched by it. And vice-versa. Same thing goes for Orlesians studying the ancient elves. The ancient elves shaped Thedas for ALL people in it.   Now do I think that means that elves shouldn't participate in the discovery? No. Do I think think they should be second class citizens and barred access from the university(which I imagine they likely are)? No. But I do believe all people can be enriched by it and should have the right to study it.

 

EDIT: Realized I prolly sounded a little rude.  I'm just voicing my own take on it and why I don't get so upset.  I'm not that into the Dalish stuff as in role-playing a proud Dalish. I like the lore. I find it fascinating but I like how it all weaves together. 


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#62719
nikki-tikki

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It seems really naive of us to fall in love with someone we know so little about, and yet here we are...

But that's why. He's so mysterious and we want to know more. Also imagination sometimes gets the better of us. Right now he's percieved as being misunderstood as Fen'Harel, but what if he is really playing everyone? My quizzy would probably be less inclined to be in love with him if he is truly evil.


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#62720
dragondreamer

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Problem is the Dragon Age Wiki is fan-edited, and I find frequent errors on there. I don't trust it as a definitive source for that reason.

 

Nah, it's accurate, I've seen the codex in my own game. 
 

 

The ancient root-word is related to "harillen," or opposition, and "hellathen," or noble struggle. The Dalish call Fen'Harel a god of deception, but I posit a far more accurate translation would be "god of rebellion."

 

 

However, it examines the roots of the word, which gives more nuance to it.  How the actual word is generally used may be different, but it's important to understand all the concepts attached to it.  Rebel, deceiver, dreadful, trickster.  And Orlesian scholar is pointing out the lesser known nuance of the "rebel" aspect of the word, but Flemythal who actually lived in those times and knows Fen'Harel personally still calls him Dread Wolf. 

 

I don't think the trickster label itself bothers Solas that much, he sounds like someone who delighted in his cleverness back in the day.  And he does bring up the subject of tricksters to Varric.  I think it's the focus on the "deception" that the Dalish have that bothers him.  The same way Iron Bull doesn't like his old friend translating "Hissrad" as "liar."


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#62721
LobselVith8

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You really think the Dalish are going to admit they might have been wrong about something?  They seem to take their stories pretty seriously.  I don't hate the Dalish and find their history to be tragic.  I think the elves in general really need their own homeland - one that can't be taken away (again).  But sometimes the Dalish are pretty damn arrogant and absolutely certain they know what happened in the past.

 

Well, considering Hawen's clan admit they were wrong about the inception of the war when they read the scroll that reads both sides were culpable, I'm going to say yes. We also know from Merrill that they admit that they have limits regarding their knowledge, and simply don't have all the facts - from who summoned Audacity during the battle between the Arlathan elves and the Tevinter humans at Sundermount to not knowing who was in the right in the war between the Creators and the Forgotten Ones.

 

I don't really understand why people think that the Dalish are incapable of admitting that they can be wrong when they already admit they simply don't know everything. Even the story about the fall of Arlathan is labelled as a 'legend' and hearsay, not as indisputable fact.


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#62722
Pinax

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I'VE ALREADY GOT A BATHTUB FILLED HOW MANY MORE DO WE NEED

(...)

 

I strongly believe in Valentine as a gift to BW: a card made of all our sad Lavellan's pics.

 

I remember from the beginning of this thread I think someone raised an idea of "paste your sad Lavellan" and I remember I loved the idea, better than 3colored cupcakes.


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#62723
Colonelkillabee

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And was even more so when he woke.

He had the orb then, so not necessarily. Meaning he at least had the key, which we know makes us spiritually more powerful too. Cole confirms this by saying we're bright..



#62724
DragonRacer

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Since The Rebel God entry has been called into question... have some screenshots of the actual codex I took on my playthrough:

 

rebel_god_1.jpg

 

rebel_god_2.jpg


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#62725
Colonelkillabee

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It seems really naive of us to fall in love with someone we know so little about


I'm not saying typical foolish women... but typical foolish women :P

LOL jk
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