153431 réponses à ce sujet

[drake2511]

DAI doesn't cut the Dalish much slack, true, but one of the major plot threads of the game is all about dismantling the "glorious ancient elven empire callously destroyed by humans" legend/trope, so thematically I think it's not out of place. It may also be an attempt to show a different side of elven culture than the previous two games, which were pretty heavy on examples of humans being jerks to innocent elves. 

 

I remember that somewhere (tumblr?) Gaider mentioned that he felt they had made the mages too sympathetic in Origins and not done enough to show the other side of the story, so I kind of wonder if the writers wanted to push the balance back with the humans-vs-elves thing too.

 

 

You do get to snark back a little - I always snicker when the Inquisitor asks Solas if he's allergic to halla

 

I get what you're saying, but if it's true that in DAO mages were too sympathetic, I don't feel the same for the Dalish. If you're a human/dwarf they literally treat you like you're trash and do not deserve to be there. This is one of the reasons why they were never very popular among fans, or at least I think it's why I have seen many threads/posts hating on them in the past.

It's sad because I never cared much for the Dalish until I played their origin in DAO, now I love them and I find their history to be tragic. After DA:I it's even more sad, since we learn that pretty much everything they know is a lie.

[Rabbitonfire]

what kind of drawing sessions >.> 

Just anything you want to draw. You don't really have to draw to chat though. It's mostly talking about various topics. 

[Avejajed]

Does anyone have the -other- chatroom, the one that's always open?

[Rabbitonfire]

Does anyone have the -other- chatroom, the one that's always open?

Solas thread chatroom (password: lavellan. Contains both on- and off-topic chat)

 

 

If you forget, the link is on the front page.

[The Oracle]

Okay, I've done it. I've found the official Solas/Lavellan song. No need for further words. No need for any other video. Might as well close the thread now. 

 

 

This should be put in the game at the final credits. Hahahaha. Love Flight of the Conchords. They always know what to say.

[Elessara]

That's a really good observation. I hadn't thought of it like that.

 

The problem is, BioWare doesn't present it like that. I'm not necessarily bothered that the Dalish don't know that much about their history; I'm bothered with how it's framed. If BioWare framed the Dalish's lack of knowledge as an inevitable result of a thousand years of slavery, imperialism, diaspora, cultural appropriation, etc. I could understand. If they made it clear humans know more about them from stealing their knowledge over the centuries, I could understand it.

 

But they don't. BioWare chooses to present the Dalish as unlikable and haughty toward the PC as possible (kind and open-minded Dalish exist are usually background characters and codex entries that are optional to encounter, while the jerky ones are front and center and required for the player to talk to to advance the story), have them talk endlessly about discovering the past, and then have human characters easily out-Dalish the Dalish in order to make the Dalish look stupid and incompetent, so the player can have a laugh at their expense.

 

BioWare presents the Dalish' limited knowledge of their past as a failing on the Dalish's part; not as a natural and understandable result of their lot in life. "Oh, they're a culture that dedicates their entire existence to learning about their past. That's backwards and counterproductive of them, and we'll have several every sympathetic characters say so so the player will adopt that opinion too. Oh, they dedicate their existence to learning about their elven past, so we'll throw in a human character who isn't even invested in recovering elven history learn more about one little detail of elven history/language/technology than they have after centuries of study, to show just how inept they are."

 

And I'm not impressed by that.

 

To be honest though, the only Dalish elf from DAO that I thought was actually hostile was the hahren/storyteller ... and if you did a couple of quests he cooled down a good bit.  Zathrian came across as cautious to me, not necessarily hostile.  And the others in that clan I don't remember as being overtly hostile either.

 

In DA2 ... my memory is sketchy.  The Keeper seemed welcoming enough, perhaps one or two others in the clan were suspicious?  I don't have a strong memory either way to be honest.

 

And I don't know, when I heard about the history of Arlathan and the Dales it just seemed obvious that's why the Dalish didn't know a whole lot of their past and why they were trying to recover it.  And I never really felt that BioWare was trying to make the PC out-Dalish the Dalish and make them look inept.

 

Mostly I felt sympathetic towards their tragic past and wanted to help out.

[HurricaneGinger]

If loving Solas and Moriggan is wrong,then I don't want to be right!

 

I've been wrong so many times when it comes to fictional characters I've accepted it as a curse upon my life for doing something bad in a previous. XD

 

 
Indeed! Up until she tried whisking me away to never never land. How would I even know I like the food there? And good luck ever trying to win an argument when your wife holds the key to the entire realm.


All good, have one from me

 

It will be like Fred and Wilma Flinstone. You're locked out, you bang on the door calling her name, and she just sits there smirking because you woke up the baby. XD

 

He'll be back. The end of Witch Hunt DLC was MUCH more final than the end of DAI and Morrigan ended up coming back. If Solas weren't a popular character I'd be worried that they'd drop his story but as it stands... I mean they ended up referencing his romance at PAX right? This thread is huge. There's tons of fanart/fanfiction devoted to Solas. I wouldn't worry.

 

I love you so much. Your optimism gives me optimism.

 

The struggle is real. Its bordering on unhealthy, being glued to these forums for some small hint. I always wondered what would happen if some employee just went on YouTube or Reddit and just spoiled the whole story (assuming the story isnt being made up as they go along). I'm not sure if I would be glad or upset...the suspense is killing me

 

It has become my crack. The anticipation is like the best foreplay. Well...foreplay riddled with tears and desperate cries for our elf boyfriend to come back. :|

 

I know they have limited knowledge, but as much as I love the Dalish there are plenty of them who are very close minded.

And some are not, like the Lavellan clan, it really depends on who you ask. 

They have a general opinion of the Dread Wolf and it's a really negative one, it can easily create tunnel vision that blocks them from seeing what's in front of them. They act upon these legends, they wear vallaslins, they curse by the Dread Wolf's name, that's enough to show their beliefs. Maybe the keepers are moderate and have a flexible mind, but the simpler elves? Nah. That's how it is in real life as well. The wise tend to see things in less black and white, and are open to new ideas, the extremes are more common amongst the less knowledgeable. 

"The Dalish remember fragments of fragments, but that is more than most." - Solas

 

Apparently even Solas agrees on that much.

 

But.  Something that should be remembered is that the reason the Dalish don't have as much knowledge as they could, the reason why a human like Finn might know more, is because of their history.  When the elves of Arlathan were enslaved, Tevinter scavenged everything out of it, and what they didn't absorb into their own culture, was hidden away from the sight of slaves.  What little those slaves still knew was used to build the Dales.  When the Dales was conquered, the Chantry ferreted away what knowledge of the elves they found in the Circles.  Which is why you have to go to the Circle in Witch Hunt to find someone who actually knew ancient elvish and knew anything about eluvians. (Why did Morrigan know ancient elvish?  Remember who her mother is.)  What the Dalish know really is only fragments of fragments.  And they can't help that.  Most of the codexes do underline that the Dalish know they know little, and that's why they keep trying to dig up what info they can.  It's unfortunate that humans know more of their past than they do, but it isn't surprising either.  I thought it was a neat reveal that all this revised info on the ancient elves came from scholarly work that we'd never had access to before ourselves.  We were not unlike the Dalish, since our only knowledge of their ancient history and stories up until now came from Dalish stories.

 

The Dalish are like any and all people - they are diverse. Some would accept the new knowledge, some would reject it, some would fear it. They fill in the blanks, romanticize, create their own songs and rituals to elaborate on what has been lost. Some clans may not actively search for their history in fear of losing their people; or like Solas said, they may be no better than bandits. Change is frightening, especially those who have held tightly to what has been provided; they will cling to it with every fiber of their being and shun those who say otherwise. 

[drake2511]

Hey. Watching the OP of this thread I remebered about the early screenshots of Solas and his... tight pants. We used to like them very much.
Is there actually any armor in game that let us have such a nice view?

I need to know. For science.

[nikki-tikki]

To be honest though, the only Dalish elf from DAO that I thought was actually hostile was the hahren/storyteller ... and if you did a couple of quests he cooled down a good bit.  Zathrian came across as cautious to me, not necessarily hostile.  And the others in that clan I don't remember as being overtly hostile either.

 

In DA2 ... my memory is sketchy.  The Keeper seemed welcoming enough, perhaps one or two others in the clan were suspicious?  I don't have a strong memory either way to be honest.

 

And I don't know, when I heard about the history of Arlathan and the Dales it just seemed obvious that's why the Dalish didn't know a whole lot of their past and why they were trying to recover it.  And I never really felt that BioWare was trying to make the PC out-Dalish the Dalish and make them look inept.

 

Mostly I felt sympathetic towards their tragic past and wanted to help out.

To sum up the Dalish in DA2:

 

"Watch your step, shemlen. You don't know how many Dalish arrows are trained on you right now." 

 

 

Or something along those lines...

[drake2511]

Okay, I've done it. I've found the official Solas/Lavellan song. No need for further words. No need for any other video. Might as well close the thread now. 

 

 

This should be put in the game at the final credits. Hahahaha. Love Flight of the Conchords. They always know what to say.

 

You are listening to this to write the rest of your fanfic, right? Right?
Good.

[Valeria Lavellan]

If the Dalish find out about Lavellan being with the dread wolf, meeting him and such. Would she become a sign of hope (Or some kind of...sign...) among the Dalish people? A saint, maybe?

[Maria13]

Guys, all this conversation re. Solas taste in trickery (greatly spoken posts of Faerunner and LobselVith8) make me willing to raise another question, bugging my mind from some time.

 

Do you think the Inquisitor nor anyone in Skyhold could not suspect there is something more about Solas and not ask him question about it?

 

I mean... I know we're limited to get knowledge about the characters from dialogues in codex entries only. In my headcanons though I always imply there were many more interactions between the PC and NPC than it's given to us in the game: it's like obvious the characters couldn't just talk ONLY about the things we see in the game.

 

In RL I tend to be curious, to the limit of asking sometimes potentially uncomfortable questions to people, hence (my headcanon again) I hardly believe that my Quizzie never started to dig in deeper into Solas past, background etc. Funny thing is I suspect the same for Leliana (as a spymaster she like to know everything about everyone), but also Vivienne mentions in one of her banters something like "curious, Solas has so many to tell about the history and the Fade and so little about himself", so it seems it's also bugging her.

 

I wonder from some time how would Solas deal with such "uncomfortable" questions. My best guess (lol, ofc) : every time Lavellan asks him a question he does not want to answer => passionate kiss

 

What are/would be your headcanons on such situations?

 

If I recall correctly Cassandra asks him a few very direct questions at the beginning of the game, so much so that I began to suspect that he might be a second Anders... And Leliana sends an agent to interpret his paintings.  

 

However, the lack of curiosity about him overall is a little suspicious no? Perhaps he is using some low level mind control to simply divert any suspicions... And he does do this overtly several times as with Cole when he gently suggests he narrate an event from his point of view or with Blackwell giving him an out on Val Royeaux market "So you saw that in the Fade?"

[nikki-tikki]

If I recall correctly Cassandra asks him a few very direct questions at the beginning of the game, so much so that I began to suspect that he might be a second Anders... And Leliana sends an agent to interpret his paintings.  

 

However, the lack of curiosity about him overall is a little suspicious no? Perhaps he is using some low level mind control to simply divert any suspicions... And he does do this overtly several times as with Cole when he gently suggests he narrate an event from his point of view or with Blackwell giving him an out on Val Royeaux market "So you saw that in the Fade?"

I believe mind control requires some blood magic, in which Solas claims he does not know...but then again does he?

[Avejajed]

Solas thread chatroom (password: lavellan. Contains both on- and off-topic chat)


If you forget, the link is on the front page.

Thanks. I forget about everything.

[Colonelkillabee]

If the Dalish find out about Lavellan being with the dread wolf, meeting him and such. Would she become a sign of hope (Or some kind of...sign...) among the Dalish people? A saint, maybe?

Lol that or maybe the elven equivalent of a Jezebel

[Avejajed]

I believe mind control requires some blood magic, in which Solas claims he does not know...but then again does he?

I think he may know magic beyond what "modern" thedas is aware of, more powerful than blood magic. I imagine he knows all kinds of things that have been lost to time. Maybe it's not so much mind control as "misdirection ", where if you think too much about it you're suddenly changing thoughts.

Man I wonder if Solas is more.....DONUTS!

[nikki-tikki]

I think he may know magic beyond what "modern" thedas is aware of, more powerful than blood magic. I imagine he knows all kinds of things that have been lost to time. Maybe it's not so much mind control as "misdirection ", where if you think too much about it you're suddenly changing thoughts.

Man I wonder if Solas is more.....DONUTS!

That is a possibility. But I have to wonder how much power he actually has...since only unlocking his orb resulted in the giant explosion...What else is he actualy capable of...scary but exciting at the same time.

[dragondreamer]

That's a really good observation. I hadn't thought of it like that.

 

The problem is, BioWare doesn't present it like that. I'm not necessarily bothered that the Dalish don't know that much about their history; I'm bothered with how it's framed. If BioWare framed the Dalish's lack of knowledge as an inevitable result of a thousand years of slavery, imperialism, diaspora, cultural appropriation, etc. I could understand. If they made it clear humans know more about them from stealing their knowledge over the centuries, I could understand it.

 

But they don't. BioWare chooses to present the Dalish as unlikable and haughty toward the PC as possible (kind and open-minded Dalish exist are usually background characters and codex entries that are optional to encounter, while the jerky ones are front and center and required for the player to talk to to advance the story), have them talk endlessly about discovering the past, and then have human characters easily out-Dalish the Dalish in order to make the Dalish look stupid and incompetent, so the player can have a laugh at their expense.

 

BioWare presents the Dalish' limited knowledge of their past as a failing on the Dalish's part; not as a natural and understandable result of their lot in life. "Oh, they're a culture that dedicates their entire existence to learning about their past. That's backwards and counterproductive of them, and we'll have several every sympathetic characters say so so the player will adopt that opinion too. Oh, they dedicate their existence to learning about their elven past, so we'll throw in a human character who isn't even invested in recovering elven history learn more about one little detail of elven history/language/technology than they have after centuries of study, to show just how inept they are."

 

And I'm not impressed by that.

 

This is actually a big reason why I very much wanted race options back (way back when the DA:I protag was going to be human only again), because I knew we were going to be in the Dales, and even way back then I suspected there might be very important content relating to the elves as a result.  The concept of elves only achieving something for themselves if humans were there to help or guide them has ugly real world parallels, and I didn't want to see that happen again.  Which is why I was very pleased to have race options back for this game, and a Dalish option at that.  I know people tend to focus on the negatives, but at least from my perspective, I thought the Dalish were a bit more well-rounded this time around.  (Not that I personally thought they were all that bad in the past, even with my Cousland the DA:O Dalish were polite, and lot of it depends on gaining their trust through approval.  I always thought it was funny that the Warden who didn't get a warm response was my Mahariel, and I saw that as being one part because he had a little too much familiarity with them and because he was kinda whiney.  Zathrian told him to get his act together, lol.) 

 

I especially liked that a Dalish Inquisitor wasn't forced to dwell in the "my people are all backwards but I'm a special cupcake" thing and weren't portrayed as rude and closeminded if they weren't negative about their own people.  Open-mindedness is one thing, but I really dislike the concept that "otherness" is negative, and goodness conforms to the majority culture.  Even Andrastian culture is clearly in the dark about most of the truth of their religion and whether or not Andraste was what they think she was, but they are still given a fair amount of positive portrayal, even when faced with being wrong about some things.  I don't see why the Dalish should be seen any differently.  The only thing is that Andrastian culture more closely resembles a widely held human religion in the real world, and because it's more relateable, it's generally portrayed as the good one.  Again, those real world parallels that can be disquieting.  Personally, I thought it was a little more even-handed in DA:I (nope, that isn't Andraste in the Fade, but that *was* Mythal in the Fade...  But is there really a difference?)  but how you view it will still be colored by personal bias. 

[Avejajed]

That is a possibility. But I have to wonder how much power he actually has...since only unlocking his orb resulted in the giant explosion...What else is he actualy capable of...scary but exciting at the same time.

I wondered if his version of "weak" is still pretty powerful. After all, he keeps up just fine with the rest of the party, and they are all talented, the mages, well everyone really.

If normal power is him being really weak, imagine him at full power.

[Elessara]

Seriously, BioWare already did a great job as presenting the Dalish as unlikable. The fact that they feel the need to go further and make them even more unlikable than they already have worries me, because they were already in the red when Origins started out. I'm starting to feel they just flat out want players to hate the Dalish completely, which goes against the "moral grey" ground they claim to want to present most conflicts as.

 

 

I keep seeing people say that, but to be honest, I don't see it that way. I mean, just look at what the Dalish got right!

 

- The Dalish believe elves were once immortal - it turns out they were right. (And it wasn't from blood magic like Zathrien.)

- They believe Arlathan was a vast, beautiful, advanced empire filled with magic and wonder - Solas reveals they were correct. 

- They believe their kingdom fell to betrayal from within which left the elven people vulnerable to conquer from Tevinter when their gods didn't answer them - Abelas reveals there is truth to that. (Although he reveals specific details like Fen'Harel being directly responsible were incorrect).

- Some stories say Fen'Harel tricked and locked up their gods - party banter with Solas and Cole implies there might be truth to that. (Cole "They sleep, masked in a mirror, hiding, hurting, and to wake them--" Solas: "What if you wake up in the future and the world you created was worse than the one you sought to change?") 

- Some stories say their gods abandoned them for not being truly elven - if a Dalish Inquisitor calls Flemeth/Mythal out for not helping the people, she reveals she really has abandoned them and doesn't feel they're worthy of saving. (Ouch; that was kind of the story I was hoping wasn't true...) 

- The Dalish believe the vallaslin are markings with symbols that revere specific gods - Solas reveals this is correct. They simply forgot the extra detail that vallaslin are markings nobles carved into their slaves to revere the god they worshiped.

 

While the Dalish got specific details wrong, for the most part I was surprised by how much of the big picture they got correct.

 

My Lavellan is strongly dedicated to the Dalish and discovering her past, and she never once in the game felt like, "We Dalish got it wrong!" or "What we believe is based on a lie!" If anything, she felt vindicated, invigorated. "Wow, those stories really were true!" or "Our stories really were based on a grain of truth!"

 

I don't know. Maybe I just see the world differently, but I'm surprised by how many players say "everything the Dalish believe is based on a lie." It wasn't a lie, they just didn't know. But I still think they got the big picture right even if little details were missing or mixed up.

 

Some things ...

 

I don't see where the elves say their empire fell to betrayal from within?  I see the two codex entries on Arlathan where it's said that the elves who traded with humans started to age and they feared that the gods had abandoned them and deemed those elves unworthy of immortality and where it says that instead of fighting with Tevinter, the elves fled and Tevinter marched on Arlathan unopposed.  The elves called out to the gods but the gods didn't answer and the reason they didn't answer was the legend of Fen'Harel locking away the gods.

 

I'm no expert on the lore but I do remember being surprised when Abelas stated that the time of Elvhenan was over before the humans arrived.

 

Also, I remember calling Flemeth/Mythal out on her not helping.  All I remember her saying was that what had been done could not be undone and that I didn't know what I was asking.  Which implied to me that she wasn't really in any position to help.  Especially considering how much time had passed between the murder of Mythal and when she joined with Flemeth.

[nikki-tikki]

I wondered if his version of "weak" is still pretty powerful. After all, he keeps up just fine with the rest of the party, and they are all talented, the mages, well everyone really.

If normal power is him being really weak, imagine him at full power.

Oh the possibilities...let's just hope it doesn't go to his head. I would assume he's had a pretty humbling experience waking up to the world in a completely different state than he thought...

[MoonDrummer]

The Dalish clan we meet don't really get chance to explain or defend their relligion/culture/history either.

 

Its hard to like them when you get 'omg you have no idea what this artifact means for our people!'

 

Dalish opinion +3

[drake2511]

I keep seeing people say that, but to be honest, I don't see it that way. I mean, just look at what the Dalish got right!

 

- The Dalish believe elves were once immortal - it turns out they were right. (And it wasn't from blood magic like Zathrien.)

- They believe Arlathan was a vast, beautiful, advanced empire filled with magic and wonder - Solas reveals they were correct. 

- They believe their kingdom fell to betrayal from within which left the elven people vulnerable to conquer from Tevinter when their gods didn't answer them - Abelas reveals there is truth to that. (Although he reveals specific details like Fen'Harel being directly responsible were incorrect).

- Some stories say Fen'Harel tricked and locked up their gods - party banter with Solas and Cole implies there might be truth to that. (Cole "They sleep, masked in a mirror, hiding, hurting, and to wake them--" Solas: "What if you wake up in the future and the world you created was worse than the one you sought to change?") 

- Some stories say their gods abandoned them for not being worthy of saving in their eyes - if a Dalish Inquisitor calls Flemeth/Mythal out for not helping the people, she reveals she really has abandoned them and doesn't feel they're worthy of saving. (Ouch; that was kind of the story I was hoping wasn't true...) 

- The Dalish believe the vallaslin are markings with symbols that revere the gods - Solas reveals this is correct. They simply forgot the extra detail that they're markings nobles carved into their slaves to revere the god they worshiped.

 

While the Dalish got specific details wrong, for the most part I was surprised by how much of the big picture they got correct.

 

My Lavellan is strongly dedicated to the Dalish and discovering her past, and she never once in the game felt like, "We Dalish got it wrong!" or "What we believe is based on a lie!" If anything, she felt vindicated, invigorated. "Wow, those stories really were true!" or "Our stories really were based on a grain of truth!"

 

I don't know. Maybe I just see the world differently, but I'm surprised by how many players say "everything the Dalish believe is based on a lie." It wasn't a lie, they just didn't know. But I still think they got the big picture right even if little details were missing or mixed up.

Well, It depends on what "got right" means.

- True, but they didn't know it was something like Tevinter with slaves and slavers. Slavers were actually the gods they worhisp.
- Most of them believe Tevinter destryed them, while Abelas claims that by the time humans came, elves had already fallen.
- Yes, we still don't know the truth. But it is implied he may have been the one betrayed, not the other way around.
- Well, we don't know why. It seems like Mythal doesn't want to bring back what was lost "you don't know what you ask", she says to the quizzy.
- Yes, details are important

It's a matter of perspective, really. I think that they would not be happy to discover the details they missed, because it would make them reconsider everything they thought they knew. I'm not saying they wouldn't do it.
Maybe "lie" isn't the correct word, but most of their history is, if not wrong, then inaccurate. Solas says this many times in the game, and it's the reason why he dislikes modern elves so much.

Our history is inaccurate too, since many thing were lost and can't be recovered, sadly.