153433 réponses à ce sujet

[almasy87]

http://blueberryswee...sorry-509129244

Oh! This is similar to something I'm working on! It will be a while though cause I wanna finish the game again first and then finish the Cullen/Trevelyan one since I started coloring that first

[Moondreamer01]

Lol sometimes people don't even have that, so no worries. It's not a bad theory or anything like that.

 

To people saying they think the gods were just mages, I don't buy that personally for this exact reason.^ What Flemeth can do... that goes beyond simple magic I think, no matter how powerful.

 

And Solas mentions he doesn't think any mage could have such power, in relation to you closing the rifts. Now, he was in acting mode of course, but I don't think Solas has ever truly lied to us, beyond saying "I saw it in the fade!" He sucks at lying. I think they were "something else" like he said, but the term god is subjective anyway, so it still might apply, depending how flexible you're willing to be on the matter.

Yeah, I doubt they are god in the sense where we understand gods to be. They were not omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent (the way for example the Christian god is described, or even the Maker for the first two, being a absent god and all...). But I don't think they were the same as the rest of the elvhen.

 

The possibility of dragon-based shifters was raised last night, but that's admitedly a really tin-foil hat theory. But then, they seemed pissed at someone "taken the form of the gods" as seen int he Temple of Mythal, and that was theorized to be the form of a Dragon. Flemythal also transform into a dragon...

[NightSymphony]

Oh! This is similar to something I'm working on! It will be a while though cause I wanna finish the game again first and then finish the Cullen/Trevelyan one since I started coloring that first

I'm excited to see it.

[almasy87]

By the way, where exactly can you buy Tarot Cards on Bioware's site? I don't seem to be able to find it..
And is it only for US? or Europe as well?

[Mims]

I don't believe you can. You can only buy a deck of cards which uses some of the tarots as their backs. 

[BoscoBread]

NSFW-ish

 

http://archiveofouro...g/works/3241076

 

Abelas, my love!  I would pay for this to be an alternate ending. 

[BoscoBread]

By the way, where exactly can you buy Tarot Cards on Bioware's site? I don't seem to be able to find it..
And is it only for US? or Europe as well?

You cannot. They are just a regular 52 playing card deck with some of the tarot pictures on the back -- and it sounds like what pictures you get may be randome.  BW has not put the actual tarot deck up for sale.  You can buy those on ebay from people that bought the Inquisitor Box but they are going for like $200-300

[Sister Squish]

Can I kiss your feet, Oxi and Liz? (So this is how one becomes a god!) 

 

 

 

BTW: Welcome back Squish    WE MISSED YOU.

 

I love your brain, as always!  Your theories are great! From my understanding, lyrium doesn't even come close to paralleling any single substance that exists in our world.  Which is expected, because magic- BUT I will try to answer your first question as best I can! I'll put it under a spoiler tag though.  Because there's a lot of words.

 

Spoiler

This is regarding the whole "why does heating/dissolving lyrium make it safe" question.

 

Short Answer:  I don't know!  

 

Long Answer:  Just speculations-

 

So my initial assumption while reading the quotes is that raw lyrium kind of resembles a substance that is highly radioactive- because increased exposure (not necessarily even contact, but just being in proximity to it) to raw lyrium causes detrimental physical effects.  The problem with it though is that heating a substance or dissolving a substance does not necessarily decrease its radioactivity, at least as far as I know.  Radioactivity is caused by unstable nuclei that emit harmful rays (like gamma rays) as they decay -otherwise known as radioisotopes.  All (naturally occurring) elements have radioisotopes, so if it behaves like a radioactive compound it could technically be any element.  There are some compounds that are naturally more radioactive than others though (uranium for example). But all natural compounds have radioisotopes, for example- hydrogen has a radioisotope: tritium.  It exists in very small amounts anytime hydrogen is present.  The  problem with radioactive compounds is that currently, there are no good ways of decreasing radioisotopes and that's why most radioactive waste is just buried.  Sophisticated, right?  So if it doesn't behave like a highly radioactive compound when burned/dissolved, what could it be?

 

In one of my crazy theories last week I was just throwing out the possibility that perhaps lyrium is something similar to coral (a living organism that is infected with something).  If this were so, it could explain how being in proximity to lyrium would affect someones health (possible airborne transmission).  By all means I'm not saying theory is correct (it has more holes than swiss cheese), it is simply the theory I am using to build off of (because I need to start somewhere right?).  Now that was regarding red lyrium.  The reason I am thinking it could be something like this is because heating something to a high enough heat will denature enzymes and other proteins, causing them to no longer function.  Enzymes and other proteins can also be denatured in solutions that have an unfavorable pH (too acidic/ too basic), which would explain why "whatever-lyrium-is" also loses its harmful functions when dissolved (in certain solvents, at least).    If the proteins in something like bacteria are denatured (via heat or chemical solutions) and no longer function, the bacterial cells will die.  This is the closest thing I can think of when it comes to "why heating / dissolving lyrium makes it safe".  

 

Blue lyrium however is supposedly not infected with anything, so I'm kind of contradicting myself with the infection thing.  I realize this.  But because lyrium doesn't exist, it won't match any substance- I am simply drawing a few parallels between things that do exist. Perhaps blue lyrium contains a substance that is not harmful to itself, but is harmful to other organisms?  I don't know.  Someone else can try their brain at this, because I'm having scientist's block. 

 

Regarding the rest of your brilliant post, I can't even begin to try and explain the other effects of lyrium.  Usually when people start talking about hearing voices in their head that's my cue to walk away... So I'll leave that part up to someone more imaginative than I.

 

But because you're an awesome person I figured I'd at least try to explain it somehow! It's like probably 99.9% wrong, but a wrong theory is better than no theory at all! Besides, what else do I have to do at 2 AM besides look crazy on a forum?

 

MY BRAIN WANTS TO MAKE OUT WITH YOUR BRAIN LIKE, RIGHT NOW  

Thank you very much Oxi!! (I know the Oxi-baiting questions now haha  ) It certainly helps me to have a clear visual image of lyrium in order to build up the lore around it! 

 

 

Wow, this goes perfectly with what I was saying. I said that the "Maker" was a sort of entity formed by linked minds of all living things in the world, and that when it was separated, the lyrium was a byproduct of this entity's death. So now the fade is the remnant of that as its mind, while Thedas is the body. Lyrium is the result of the "death".

 

I had no idea that idea was actually in lore.

 

I would say yes, it is a possibility. The Chantry seems to think so. Two things, however: 

1> "The Chantry claims the mineral is a remnant from the birth of the world." The only perspective we have on the origins of lyrium (in World of Thedas) is from the Chantry. There is no mention of opinions from other sources, and no objective explanation. If I put my super-critical hat on, this suggests to me that this is likely to be entirely bias. 

 

2> Later in the book, there is a small codex titled "Confessions of a Lyrium Addict", which describes what it feels like to be starved of lyrium: 

"Your whole body sings with it, like the Maker's own fire. You're not scared of anything, not even abominations. After, it even takes away the nightmares. But the ration's too small. If they don't give you enough, your hands get cold. The sky starts to press on you. Little things slip away. So you have to stay." 

 

Taking away nightmares, and dreams too? Cutting their link to the fade? Cole mentions something similar when talking about Cullen - how he fills himself with lyrium to replace something he should already be full of.

"The sky starting to press" reminds me of dwarves not used to the surface. Although, the experience is reversed. Dwarves feel like they are "falling into" the sky, which is one end of a spectrum. A templar on lyrium is brought into the centre, made neutral, resistant. When coming off lyrium, he starts reverting back to the opposite end of the spectrum - but having been cut off from his natural connection, he is no longer filled with "the fade"... and is empty. "The sky starts to press". 

Spectrum:

Dwarves/The Stone/Lyrium I----------------------------Neutral-------------------------------I Life, Blood, Fade, Magic

 

DOES THAT MAKE SENSE 

Tl;Dr: to me, lyrium's origins are linked with the origins of the dwarves, too (which does not necessarily discount the existence of "the Maker"...) 

 

Another theory we bandied around chatzy last night concerned who and what exactly is Solas. It was mentionned how the orb, in the game files, is called Mythal's orb, and not Fen'Harel's orb. What it Solas isn't a god at all? 

<snip>

 

They are turning. Yeeeesssss

(Re: Fen'Harel as "just a guy" discussion: This is all super interesting and worthwhile to talk about, regardless of outcome. Working on a greek-geek post to encompass it!) 

[Moondreamer01]

[snip]

 

 

They are turning. Yeeeesssss

(Re: Fen'Harel as "just a guy" discussion: This is all super interesting and worthwhile to talk about, regardless of outcome. Working on a greek-geek post to encompass it!) 

 

Whether he was a "god" or not in ancient Arlathan, it could be argued that now that he has absorbed Mythal's powers he might as well be one now.

[Colonelkillabee]

snip

I'm not too bothered with the idea that it was presented by the chantry. If anything, that makes me like it more since this idea goes against what they're teaching. They think the Maker's like a person person, whereas I think it's an entity that exists more as a force of nature than anything else. So I don't take the lyrium's humming as his voice (her, it, whatever) literally. I also don't worry about the credibility of sources when it's the developers putting things in, meaning sometimes they're purposefully false, but other times they're accurate or clues. Sometimes they're both false and a clue. It being unchallenged so far also makes me gleeful.

 

As for templars, it's like you or others said, the lyrium's magic dampening effects is something prepared, not something natural of the lyrium. When they use it to enchant, it does the opposite of disconnect from the fade, it in fact connects objects with the fade. Like Addai said to me, it's a bridge, one that you can apparently break in the templar's case, or use to break a bridge. Temporarily.

 

After all, look what the lyrium did to the profane.

[Colonelkillabee]

Yeah, I doubt they are god in the sense where we understand gods to be. They were not omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent (the way for example the Christian god is described, or even the Maker for the first two, being a absent god and all...). But I don't think they were the same as the rest of the elvhen.

 

The possibility of dragon-based shifters was raised last night, but that's admitedly a really tin-foil hat theory. But then, they seemed pissed at someone "taken the form of the gods" as seen int he Temple of Mythal, and that was theorized to be the form of a Dragon. Flemythal also transform into a dragon...

 

Yep, I see them more as pagan gods. The lamer version in comics, that is. In that, they're "gods" but not really. As we saw, Thor and Loki (the lame versions. That I still love ) could be rather pathetic. No offense to Solas, but lol he and mythal are a ragtag pair of gods at the moment, lol.

 

But yea, people should be aware that the term "god" doesn't mean the same thing from culture to culture. Some require one to be immortal and invincible, others just abnormally powerful. Very abnormally powerful, but not necessarily infallible.

[TanithAeyrs]

On the "Fen'Harel may not really be a god theory":

 

I suspect that in the Elvhen pantheon there are gods who were simply very powerful mages (Solas, Falon'din, Dirthamen, Andruil, ect)  and there are GODS who were something more (Mythal, Elgar'nan).  That may explain the dichotomy in Solas' explanations of what the Elvhen gods were.  I suspect even he isn't truly sure what Mythal and Elgar'nan are other than the fact that they are something more.  It also explains the difference in power between Solas (who I suspect is hiding a lot, weakened or not) and the soul fragment of Mythal in Flemeth's body.

[Colonelkillabee]

On the "Fen'Harel may not really be a god theory":

 

I suspect that in the Elvhen pantheon there are gods who were simply very powerful mages (Solas, Falon'din, Dirthamen, Andruil, ect)  and there are GODS who were something more (Mythal, Elgar'nan).  That may explain the dichotomy in Solas' explanations of what the Elvhen gods were.  I suspect even he isn't truly sure what Mythal and Elgar'nan are other than the fact that they are something more.  It also explains the difference in power between Solas (who I suspect is hiding a lot, weakened or not) and the soul fragment of Mythal in Flemeth's body.

And why some gods had foci and others didn't.

[Patchwork]

I remember a book I read once where the main character was a shapeshifter but she couldn't change into immortal forms like dragons, phoenixes etc maybe something similar distinguished the Creators from the other mages; they were capable of something extraordinary that the average person was not.

 

Or they could perform the Seven Wonders and become Supreme.

 

 

Fishmas

[flabbadence]

Another theory we bandied around chatzy last night concerned who and what exactly is Solas. It was mentionned how the orb, in the game files, is called Mythal's orb, and not Fen'Harel's orb. What if Solas isn't a god at all? He was born in a small village, just as he told the Quizzie (he isn't known to outright lie unless he's really stuck, and he pretty much volunteer the information on his youth). He was a solitary youth with the powers of a dreamer (thus is exploring of the Fade). What if he was found there, by Mythal and taken in by her? Could he have been a slave himself at some point? Could it be why he finds the vallasin so distasteful? In any case, Mythal gives him an orb that allows him to access some of her powers and he perhaps serves as her guardian wolf, Emeral Knight-style. Or maybe he become, a bit like Ghil, a new addition to the pantheon (if that is the case, I like to believe it was by his own power and smarts. Imagine how prideful that would make him!)

 

After Mythal is betrayed and kill, he does the only thing he thinks is right and organize an uprising against the gods. Maybe the taint has addled them by that point and he sees no other solution than to emprison them behind an eluvian. But, just like Thelm in Liza's theory of Tyrdda's story, it takes all his energy and he lapses in uthenera until he wakes again to see the consequence of his acts.

 

The interesting thing with that theory is that, if it's true, it brings some new meaning to the reveal at the end. The orb is broken, so he can't access Mythal's power through it anymore. But Mythal gift him the biggest part of her own powers, leaving only her godhood for Morrigan (when I watch it, I always feel like Mythal is the one to initiate the transfer. After all, by that point, she's much more powerful than he is). Does that make Solas, from now on, a god? Or at least makes him as powerful as one, in a way that he never was before (with the orb, most of his power was separate from him, and easy to steal, if Corypheus is anything to go by). Now, they an integral part of him. 

 

We might be completely in the left field here, but I thought it was an interesting theory. Thanks to everyone who was in chat yesterday bouncing ideas with me!

 

Another permutation to the Fen'Harel was just a regular elf taken on by Mythal as her progeny:

 

Maybe the rebellion happened before the godhood.

 

So let's assume he was saying the truth. There was this elf born in this little village to the north during the time of Elvhenan, when the pantheon was already in place. But as a kid, he didn't care about stuff like politics. All he cared about was the Fade, magic and dreams, and when he realized he could never satisfy his constant thirst for more if he stayed in his hometown, he started wandering about, thinking only to enhance his connection to the Fade.

 

But, as he got to travel to all sorts of places, meet all sorts of people, he was forced to learn about the Empire he lived in too. And it wasn't pretty. How could a few lord over so many? Who decided who were gods, nobles, servants, or slaves? How could the world be so unfair? When did people start taking this caste system as a matter of course?

 

So then he started thinking of ways to change the system. He wasn't the first to do so of course, but everyone who'd tried before eventually failed. Not him though, to everyone's growing surprise. After all, he's good at games.

 

Soon enough, he was waging a full on rebellion against the gods, with enough backing to rival their own. People had even started calling him Fen'Harel, God of Rebellion. Even the Forgotten Ones like him, because he was fighting against the gods. Maybe they even actually believed his cause. And the other gods were outraged. I mean, who did his pup think he was? He was just a kid, a mere few centuries old compared to their millenia. What made him think he could dictate what was right and what was wrong?

 

Only, Mythal actually agreed. She realized, or maybe she'd been seeing it for a long time, that the Pantheon had already strayed from its original purpose. Fen'Harel 's cause was in fact just.

 

So she went to him, and offered him an official position within the Pantheon, a god of rebellion to keep the other gods in check, and to help them reshape the Empire. And because he was tired of seeing his followers dying in the name of freedom and equality, he accepted.

 

And it actually worked. For a time. The slaves were freed, the classes much more evened out, and everyone was happy. Well, except for everyone who actually benefited from the system of old, including some of the gods.

 

So they started hatching a plan to get things back to the way they were. Weren't they at war with the Forgotten Ones? What if, somehow, Mythal ended up becoming a casualty of that war? She was their biggest threat, and Fen'Harel would be easy enough to get rid off with her out of the picture. Only, that wasn't the case. Somehow, Fen'Harel managed to lock them and the Forgotten Ones up. Maybe he even thought things would be better now, with the whole pantheon gone. There were no gods now, only people, and maybe they'll be able to manage on their own. And so, drained, he succumbed to sleep.

 

 

 

PS, I'm not entirely convinced this is what happened, but I do think it makes for a good story.

[BoscoBread]

Yep, I see them more as pagan gods. The lamer version in comics, that is. In that, they're "gods" but not really. As we saw, Thor and Loki (the lame versions. That I still love ) could be rather pathetic. No offense to Solas, but lol he and mythal are a ragtag pair of gods at the moment, lol.

 

But yea, people should be aware that the term "god" doesn't mean the same thing from culture to culture. Some require one to be immortal and invincible, others just abnormally powerful. Very abnormally powerful, but not necessarily infallible.

Agree.  As Solas would say they were "gods" if you stretch the definition to the very point of absudity.  I believe they - the elven pantheon - were deified because they were incredibly powerful.  I mean if you amass enough followers and power you can practically convince anyone that you were a God - at least force people to repeat that.  Look at our world - The Holy Roman Emperors, The French Kings. All blessed by God. Their rule ordained by the heavens.

 

The ancient Incas used to deify their rulers and then carry around their dead bodies - laden with gold and jewelry - on litters around the empire. God bless those loonies - practically bankrupted themselves building palaces for the corpses of their kings.

[Rabbitonfire]

I remember a book I read once where the main character was a shapeshifter but she couldn't change into immortal forms like dragons, phoenixes etc maybe something similar distinguished the Creators from the other mages; they were capable of something extraordinary that the average person was not.

 

Or they could perform the Seven Wonders and become Supreme.

Spoiler

 

Fishmas

For those who didn't see the reference, it's from "Always Sunny in Philadelphia".

Spoiler

[Moondreamer01]

Another permutation to the Fen'Harel was just a regular elf taken on by Mythal as her progeny:

 

Maybe the rebellion happened before the godhood.

 

So let's assume he was saying the truth. There was this elf born in this little village to the north during the time of Elvhenan, when the pantheon was already in place. But as a kid, he didn't care about stuff like politics. All he cared about was the Fade, magic and dreams, and when he realized he could never satisfy his constant thirst for more if he stayed in hometown, he started wandering about, thinking only to enhance his connection to the Fade.

 

But, as he got to travel to all sorts of places, meet all sorts of people, he was forced to learn about the Empire he's living in too. And it wasn't pretty. How can a few lord over so many? Who decided who were gods, nobles, servants, or slaves? How could the world be so unfair? When did people start taking this caste system as a matter of course?

 

So then he started thinking of ways to change the system. He wasn't the first to do so of course, but everyone who'd tried before eventually failed. Not him though, to everyone's growing surprise. After all, he's good at games.

 

Soon enough, he was waging a full on rebellion against the gods, with enough backing to rival their own. People had even started calling him Fen'Harel, God of Rebellion. And the other gods were outraged. I mean, who did his pup think he was? He was just a kid, a mere few centuries old compared to their millenia. What made him think he could dictate what was right and what was wrong?

 

Only, Mythal actually agreed. She realized, or maybe she'd been seeing it for a long time, that the Pantheon had already strayed from its original purpose. Fen'Harel 's cause was in fact just.

 

So she went to him, and offered him an official position within the Pantheon, a god of rebellion to keep the other gods in check, and to help them reshape the Empire. And because he was tired of seeing his followers dying in the name of freedom and equality, he accepted.

 

And it actually worked. For a time. The slaves were freed, the classes much more evened out, and everyone was happy. Well, except for everyone who actually benefited from the system of old, including some of the gods.

 

So they started hatching a plan to get things back to the way they were. Weren't they at war with the Forgotten Ones? What if, somehow, Mythal ended up becoming a casualty of that war? She was their biggest threat, and Fen'Harel would be easy enough to get rid off with her out of the picture. Only, that wasn't the case. Somehow, Fen'Harel managed to lock them and the Forgotten Ones up. Maybe he even thought things would be better now, with the whole pantheon gone. There were no gods now, only people, and maybe they'll be able to manage on their own. And so, drained, he succumbed to sleep.

 

 

 

PS, I'm not entirely convinced this is what happened, but I do think it makes for a good story.

Interesting theory. That could have been the case too. I wonder if, by becoming one of "them" if he kinda forgot his original purpose too. He was prideful, he admit as much, and everyone knows how power tends to corrupt.

[Illyria]

I remember a book I read once where the main character was a shapeshifter but she couldn't change into immortal forms like dragons, phoenixes etc maybe something similar distinguished the Creators from the other mages; they were capable of something extraordinary that the average person was not.

 

Or they could perform the Seven Wonders and become Supreme.

 

 

Fishmas

 

Off topic but is that a trilogy of books

Spoiler

where the main characters spend a lot of their time in rat form and one of them dies in the first book but shifts into a phoenix in order to surivie and the last book is about humans vs the fair folk in Ireland because if it is what are the titles? I read them when I was young and cannot remember what they were called.

 

[MoonDrummer]

I guess my head cannon is that Elgar'nan and Mythal are the two most powerful gods, and the closest to what we would recognise as gods. Obviously they aren't all-knowing aand all-powerful, or they wouldn't have been dickiebowjangled. Sylaise and Andruil are the children of Mythal. Dirthamen and Falon'Din are the children of E. June, Ghil, and Fen are powerful mages that were elevated.

 

I have nothing to back this up ofcourse, I just like how it sounds.

 

They are all outsshone by God-King Oghren.

[flabbadence]

Interesting theory. That could have been the case too. I wonder if, by becoming one of "them" if he kinda forgot his original purpose too. He was prideful, he admit as much, and everyone knows how power tends to corrupt.

 

Oh man yes. He got complacent. He actually started believing the other gods were finally shaping up, started thinking they've accepted him into their ranks, which was why he felt so shocked and betrayed when he learned that it was actually them who had Mythal killed, and that anger must have clouded his judgment when he retaliated and locked them all away.

 

Edit: Reading through your question again, I realize I went off on a tangent with my answer. Really sorry  . Maybe this is my body telling me to go get some sleep.

[Moondreamer01]

Oh man yes. He got complacent. He actually started believing the other gods were finally shaping up, started thinking they've accepted him into their ranks, which was why he felt so shocked and betrayed when he learned that it was actually them who had Mythal killed, and that anger must have clouded his judgment when he retaliated and locked them all away.

 

Edit: Reading through your question again, I realize I went off on a tangent with my answer. Really sorry  . Maybe this is my body telling me to go get some sleep.

Headcanon accepted

[Avejajed]

I like the theory that Solas used to be a bored god immortal playing with the lives of their followers much like the ancient gods of Rome and Greece did, until something happened to put him on the straight and narrow and do something worthwhile with his immortal life.

[flabbadence]

I like the theory that Solas used to be a bored god immortal playing with the lives of their followers much like the ancient gods of Rome and Greece did, until something happened to put him on the straight and narrow and do something worthwhile with his immortal life.

 

I actually do prefer this, just because I like redemption arcs more. Hell, Himura Kenshin's my favoritest character ever.

[Moondreamer01]

I actually do prefer this, just because I like redemption arcs more. Hell, Himura Kenshin's my favoritest character ever.

I adore a good redemption arch. I still get all the feelz for that hobo samurai *sighs*