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[tsunamitigerdragon]

. 

[HurricaneGinger]

 

EDIT:  Which is why I adore the "I don't believe in gods" line that quizzy can toss at Corypheus.  Quizzy takes the whole idea that gods are somehow special and separate, and launches a cannonball right through it.  No, Cornflakes, you are not a special snowflake, and neither am I.  You're just an a**hat, and I'm just the one who's going to shoot this arrow into your face.

 

So much this. Down the line, people are going to reinvent Lavellan. They may even whittle down her ears and make her human like they did with Shartan. But she knows she's not divine, and her closest companions know it too. It's like with Cassnadra - people see her a legend, and her story has taken on a life of it's own when there is so much more to it. People forget it, romanticize, change it to suit their needs and comforts. They'll do the same with Lavellan, and my girl hates it.

 

Reading back through yesterday's comments as I didn't get a chance to check the forum yesterday, but I also think this, that Mythal sees whatever Solas has planned as a stepping stone to achieving her own agenda, though whether Solas realizes that or not, I'm not sure. I'd say he probably at least has an inkling. I'm also more concerned with Solas' plans because we know next to nothing about them except that he wants to help the elves somehow (and it seems to me more like he's thinking of the ancient elves than the modern ones). With Mythal, we know that her ultimate goal is vengeance, retribution for those that betrayed her and the world, and even though it's not clear how she plans to accomplish that, it's a pretty easily understood goal. With Solas, we only have speculation based on things he said throughout the game as he never outright states what his end goal is. Granted, helping the elves and getting revenge are both rather vague goals in the sense that there's any number of ways those could  be carried out and in what they could mean for the rest of Thedas.

 

I honestly would not be surprised if that is the truth. I don't think Solas cares so long as he can solve whatever he feels like he needs to solve; or, he has a plan of his own. 

 

****, the pantheon was one fucked up mess or manipulation and revenge. No wonder Solas has trouble trusting anyone - his friends betrayed him, and he betrayed them. Now, the only friend he has left from that time may be using him for her own ends.

 

And Lavellan...the only person he really can trust...he leaves.

 

**** me.

[flabbadence]

So much this. Down the line, people are going to reinvent Lavellan. They may even whittle down her ears and make her human like they did with Shartan. But she knows she's not divine, and her closest companions know it too. It's like with Cassnadra - people see her a legend, and her story has taken on a life of it's own when there is so much more to it. People forget it, romanticize, change it to suit their needs and comforts. They'll do the same with Lavellan, and my girl hates it.

 

 

I honestly would not be surprised if that is the truth. I don't think Solas cares so long as he can solve whatever he feels like he needs to solve; or, he has a plan of his own. 

 

****, the pantheon was one fucked up mess or manipulation and revenge. No wonder Solas has trouble trusting anyone - his friends betrayed him, and he betrayed them. Now, the only friend he has left from that time may be using him for her own ends.

 

And Lavellan...the only person he really can trust...he leaves.

 

**** me.

 

Ah, there it is.

 

My feels post for the day.

[Siha]

Hi. This is what my work day has consisted of.

 

I like charts, don't judge me. Be jealous of my mad chart making skills.

 

 

 

Why not pyramid? I actually like that. If we see it like Maslow's hierarchy of needs it might symbolise the desire of an archdemon to advance (back) to the Fade, crossing the layers in between. Just one idea. Actually, many entities in Thedas have the desire to advance to the Fade, so all of them work if we use the pyramid metaphor.

 

So, the Veil is basically the ozone layer?

 

Where is the Crossroads? Well, first of all maybe what is the Crossroads? Like is there only one Fade or are there different Fades/layers of the Fade, like parallel universes. Or is there only one "Earth" but instead parallel Earths? Whatever there are multiples of (I tend to the latter idea based on Morrigan's explanation), the Crossroads connects them all, like a gateway.

[Elven_Glory]

In somewhat related topics - I had SERIOUS second hand embarassment for EVERYONE involved in that scene. I was like "STAHP SINGING. PLEASE." I wanted to run away in shame...for them. It was too much.

Omg, me too. My Lavellan was like, "Really, guys? You look ridiculous... No, no, Cullen, don't close your eyes. Oh, Creators... Guys... GUYS! PLEASE! GUYS STAAAAAHHHHP!"

She was quite relieved when Solas asked to speak with her and got her away from all that nonsense.

[Addai]

@lizasaurus, you're going to blog this Tyrdda stuff somewhere right? I haven't had time to follow it and I want to read all of it.

[dragondreamer]

No but, if daughter-rearing is part of their genetics, then it should have stayed consistent throughout the bloodline. Or did some recessive son-rearing gene set in?

 

 

I'm not following this line of discussion very closely, but on this particular:  Something I found interesting in those constellation codexes, is that Urthemiel has an old association with the constellation known as "The Maiden".  This may simply be an association that came about with conflating the Old God of Beauty with the traditional view of beauty=femininity, but it's made me wonder if "Urthemiel" was really male.  Of course that may not mean much here since Kieran is male, but it's still something to think about.

[Kappa Neko]

Re: Wolves as rebels, Fen'Harel as just a guy

From the comparisons between Ancient Arlathan and Ancient Greece, comes #greek geekery. 
(Warning: I am probably the only person who is interested in any of this! Will attempt to keep it brief!)

Spoiler

 

Arlathan as Ancient Greece: The Trial

 

 

It is rare for us to find information on an Ancient Elvhen domestic event such as this. Therefore, I am assuming the significance in this trial being relayed to us. Arguably the most significant trial of Ancient Greece (and possibly the western world) was that of Socrates.  

 

Socrates believed that the people of Athens held their principles glibly, but rarely lived up to them and even more rarely examined them. Against this, he developed a technique of asking seemingly innocent questions, trapping his audience in their own confusions and hypocrisies, exploding the pretensions of his times. And against their easy certainties, he taught that "the unexamined life is not worth living". He referred to himself as a "gadfly", (an obnoxious insect with a painful bite), keeping his fellow citizens from ever becoming as smug and self-righteous as they would like to have been. Accordingly, he made many enemies. 

 

Aristophanes, Socrates contemporary, wrote a play called The Clouds, satirizing the life of Socrates in a mild form of vengeance for Socrates constant criticisms. "The Clouds" referred to that stereotype of thinkers "having their heads lost in the clouds". It also expressed the public opinion that Socrates was "shiftless", and merely a master at verbal trickery.

 

Socrates students however worshipped him, and perceived him as a martyr for the truth in a corrupt society. The price of his nuisance eventually culminated in the government arranging for Socrates to be brought to trial on the charges of:

1> corrupting the youth of Athens 

2> not believing in the gods of the city

And for these bogus crimes Socrates was sentenced to death. However he went down gloriously. 

 

 

Socrates here suggests that the state should give him a pension, rather than a punishment, for being a public benefactor and urging his students to be virtuous. It is the beginning of a long speech in defense of his life made before the citizens of Athens (who did not appreciate being told they were corrupt by Socrates, even while condemning him). Socrates had actually been offered chances before the trial, both to repent and give up his way of life, or to escape the city with friends. But he told everyone who offered that he preferred to die for his ideas than to live as a hypocrite. An idea worth living for may be an idea worth dying for as well. 

 

The charge of "high treason" in Arlathan may seem far more severe than the charges of Socrates, but we must keep in mind that Thedas is a world where ideas, or will, or choice (depending on your interpretation) are made manifest. And the punishment for Socrates was no less severe. 

 

Imagine then if you can, a scenario where an equivalent member of the lower classes in Arlathan develops radical ideas of a moral nature. He collects a following, and that following believes that their way of life deserves recognition as that of a separate Pantheon, just as each other member of the Pantheon reigns over city-states adhering to differing ways of life. The following is not humored with recognition by the Pantheon until it develops enough power and resources to prove a possible threat. The leader of the following is dragged before a trial, accused of "high treason". The death is revered as a martyrdom, triggering rebellion. 

 

Plato, when recounting Socrates, argues there being justice in the afterlife. Not the traditionally religious kind of justice that we may have come to relate to heaven and hell, however. A sort of cosmic justice; a belief that the universe is somehow a working system in which whatever the "afterlife" is allows us to experience the result of choices made in this life. 

 

But, that isn't to say we wait until the afterlife to receive reward. To Plato, justice is intrinsically good because a "moral life" is also a "happy life". By "happy", he is referring to a deep and sustainable inner contentment, moral and intellectual virtue, and well-being. Such a state requires that reason rule the soul. For Plato, reason is the aspect of the human soul that desires knowledge, including knowledge of moral reality. Spirit is the aspect of the soul which desires honour and gets angry, and appetite is the aspect of the soul that desires food, drink, sex, and other bodily pleasures. When reason rules over spirit and appetite, there is an inner harmony that constitutes true happiness. The virtuous person is in a state of harmony and spiritual health. 

 

Too far into philosophy land. Anyway, one of the things to keep in mind regarding the Pantheon and it's subjects is that there is a difference between the "common good" and the "greater good". When the "greater good" is given as a justification for political action, the rights, dignity, and integrity of individuals are up for grabs. That is, things may be sacrificed for the good of the majority. Aka, a population maintaining the wealth and power of rulers is justified by them being more capable of running a city for all you peasants. Or, justification for slave rituals and blood magic. 

 

However, the claim that the good of all citizens suffers when the rights of some are violated is an appeal to the "common good". Socrates - and our mysterious Arlathan - died for this idea. They didn't know what their deaths might achieve, but they fought on behalf of those who would suffer if the state of things continued as they were. 

 

If it has yet to be noticed, I am attempting to drill home the importance of this event in shaping the intellectual foundations of the entirety of western civilization since. The decline of the mighty Greeks themselves was much more gradual than the "whoops, fell in a hole" burying of Arlathan. Yet we can understand the effect of Arlathan's lifespan on all peoples in Thedas, if the footprint left by the Ancient Elvhen was anything like that of the Greeks. 

 

After the Greek and Roman empires crumbled, as a result of many variables (which our historian Caddius would probably know a lot more about!) the western world arguably became a little lazy. It was as late as the fifteenth century where significant elements of recovery were seen in political, economic, artistic, and intellectual change. And this was largely due to a "rebirth" of Greco-Roman civilisation and ideas. 

I wonder, then, if this is what we are seeing in present day Thedas? A recovery of Arlathan civilisation and ideas? A Thedasian renaissance? 

 

P.S. I am out of likes but everything is amazing today! EVERYTHING! 

Yep, Bioware has a thing for ancient Greece. In Mass Effect, Asari society was modeled after ancient Greece and there are many parallels between the Asari and elves of Elvhenan. Both have exceptionally long life spans and take their time to make decisions. Both races have inherent magical abilities that far exceed the "artificial" recreation of magic/biotics in other races. Element zero pretty much functions like lyrium (both are blue too) and allows other races to establish a connection to magic. Like the lyrium addicted templars, element zero trained biotics suffer terrible side effects. Their bodies can't handle it well. However, element zero seems to be the original source of ALL "magic" in Mass Effect, including the Asari.

While the Asari seem to be Bioware's ideal society of peaceful negotiation, and their idea of being one with a collective unconscious is basically the original song of the ancient elves, Bioware turned it on its head in Dragon Age and made their perfect society fall from grace. Also, Asari can mate with any race and their children will always be Asari. It's the other way round with the elves.

What may be interesting to consider for Arlathan and the gods is that the Asari did not become this wise incredibly intelligent biotic society on their own. Their inherent biotic abilities were engineered by the Protheans who played god with them through genetic experiments and accelerated their development with passed down knowledge. The Asari religion rose from the invisible hands of the Prothean "Maker", they spoke to the Asari through an invented god of wisdom.

I wonder if there will be something like that in Dragon Age too. Where did the magic come from? What exactly is it anyway? I kind of like the idea of Thedas being a future of the Mass Effect galaxy, one of the races came and helped the ancient elves too...

 

 

Personal note: I thought I would have lots of time to read and post here while in the hospital, but the pain kept me from thinking straight. And the meds made my mind all fuzzy anyway.  Don't ever shatter your heel bone, guys. The pain is something else... and morphine is totally overrated...

I hope I'll get discharged at the end of the week. Maybe then I can continue playing and coming up with some ideas of my own.

[Sable Rhapsody]

So much this. Down the line, people are going to reinvent Lavellan. They may even whittle down her ears and make her human like they did with Shartan. But she knows she's not divine, and her closest companions know it too. It's like with Cassnadra - people see her a legend, and her story has taken on a life of it's own when there is so much more to it. People forget it, romanticize, change it to suit their needs and comforts. They'll do the same with Lavellan, and my girl hates it.

 

This is part of why I like normal, Muggle Lavellan who has absolutely nothing remarkable other than the Anchor, which she chalks up to dumb luck.  There's something to be said for a character who protests the romanticization at every turn, refuses to use her own legend, and turns down every source of power other than what she can achieve on her own.  

 

Man, now I'm all nostalgic for Baldur's Gate.  What a game.  I want my Lavellan and my Bhaalspawn to have tea at some point.

[Illyria]

Allright Solassians...I am curious which Vallaslin you would actually put on your characters now that we officially know what each of them means ? I know that it is the markings of a slave but you are stuck with them if you are a Lavellan so which one would you choose ?

 

It sort of boils down to which Elven deity you prefer ? Perhaps Mythal, since she has been somewhat nice and helpful to us as Flemeth throughout the franchise ? Or something else ? Pity there is no Fen'Harel markings. 

 

I picked Mythal because it was the prettiest.  When we got The Chart I was thinking of changing it to Dirthamen but but I can't really see my Lavellan with a different vallalin now and I realised that the 'protector' meaning suited her quite well (she's the First of her clan, after all).  Glad there's no Fen'Harel one.  Like others have said there would be loads of people picking it for bad reasons.

[Illyria]

The Switchers Trilogy is what you're thinking of

 

http://en.wikipedia....itchers_Trilogy

 

Yes!  Thank you!

[nikki-tikki]

This is part of why I like normal, Muggle Lavellan 

 

Ahahahahhah! That's golden 

[BoscoBread]

This is part of why I like normal, Muggle Lavellan who has absolutely nothing remarkable other than the Anchor, which she chalks up to dumb luck.  There's something to be said for a character who protests the romanticization at every turn, refuses to use her own legend, and turns down every source of power other than what she can achieve on her own.  

 

Man, now I'm all nostalgic for Baldur's Gate.  What a game.  I want my Lavellan and my Bhaalspawn to have tea at some point.

Let's all celebrate our Muggle Lavellan's. My little rebel girl.   She revels in her ordinary-ness.  She's enthralled by her teammates because to her they are the extraordinary ones. The anchor was an accident. Nothing more than the result of her being nosy...as usual.

[tsunamitigerdragon]

.

[LadyKarrakaz]

If the Dalish find out about Lavellan being with the dread wolf, meeting him and such. Would she become a sign of hope (Or some kind of...sign...) among the Dalish people? A saint, maybe?

She'd be the Dalish version of Andraste? Bride of the long gone god...

[nikki-tikki]

If the Dalish find out about Lavellan being with the dread wolf, meeting him and such. Would she become a sign of hope (Or some kind of...sign...) among the Dalish people? A saint, maybe?

 

 

She'd be the Dalish version of Andraste? Bride of the long gone god...

 

Wouldn't the Dalish be upset since they believe Fen'Harel to be a trickster?

[flabbadence]

Tyrdda Bright-Axe Analysis
Stanza Eight: Tyrdda Flies to Her Lover. Complete stanza below behind spoiler.

 

Spoiler

 

 

This stanza is interesting because... it's four lines short. It breaks the pattern established in all other stanzas, and it makes me wonder if those four final lines were cut off on purpose by the game writers/ devs to be revealed at a later point or if they were simply lost to time. Regardless, the length anomaly still stands and we should question it.

 

Tyrdda Bright-Axe, Avvar Chieftain, strong her tribe with dwarven trade, 

• Tyrdda's trade with the dwarves has strengthened her tribe political power and empowered them economically. 

Battles brought to men and demons, won with wisdom, fire, and blade. 

• I'm unsure if this is merely meant as a summary of her deeds within the epic so far OR a quick once-over of her deeds post-seventh stanza.
• Regardless, in both cases, it remains that she DID battle both men and demons, she did win with wisdom, and her "blade" (aka staff) was enchanted with fire.
• It would be interesting to know if she continued these successes without the guidance of the Lady of the Skies who has gone missing since that night in the seventh stanza.

Then did Tyrdda look to Hendir, dwarf-prince friend, children-giver, 

Took her freedom, Hendir glad, wished her what he could not give her. 

• It appears that Hendir, while her friend, husband, and father of her children, knew that Tyrdda's heart lay elsewhere. He couldn't give her what she wanted. He was not her leaf-eared lover, Lady of the Skies. And.. he was a dude.
• Rather than feeling bitter about it, Hendir is freaking baller who lets Tyrdda go because he wants her to be happy.

Chose her child to stand as chieftain, after all last wrongs were righted,

• Tyrdda's child is chosen to lead her tribe in her absence.
• I am confused as to what "after all last wrongs were righted" means. Perhaps the Avvar didn't wish for Tyrdda to leave? Perhaps the people of Hendir were upset that Hendir essentially divorced Tyrdda and freed her from their marriage. If that's the case, choosing a child of their union, would help stabilize the alliance between the Avvar and dwarves in this time of fear and fill the power vacuum Tyrdda leaves behind.

Gifted goods of worldly want, left her tribe no more benighted.

 

• This final line is... interesting. One, we've already established that there SHOULD be four more lines for it to fit the established pattern/ structure of the seven previous stanzas. Second, what it implies is potentially confusing.
• So here's what we know: Hendier chose his child with Tyrdda to stand as chieftan of the Avvar, makes sure to right any wrongs and stablize the alliance between the peoples in Tyrdda's absence. He gives gifts of wordly want to the Avvar, and "left her tribe no more benighted."
• The word that intrigues me here is "benighted." Benighted has two defintions,
  1. In a state of pitiful or contemptible intellectual or moral ignorance, typically owing to a lack of opportunity.
  2. Overtaken by darkness.
• Did the gifts Hendir give the Avvar include knowledge? Did his invovlement with them prevent the Avvar from falling into a period of ignorance and dwindling into obscuring, and instead allowed them to develop into a people/ group of power? This last bit appears to be true, because it is through the Dwarves that once the Tevinter Imperium is founded, that the Avvar manage to fight them back and work together to build the following architectural main-stays of Thedas: Vigil Keep where Corypheus was later imprisoned and Kinloch Hold which in time became home to Ferelden's Circle of Magi. 
• If number 2, did his gifts save them from darkness? Is this intellectual darkness or were the religious/ spirit practices of Tyrdda without her guidance driving her people towards darkness?

 

Parting Thoughts: This last stanza is titled The Flight of Tyrdda to Her Lover. But that's not really what it's about. It's about how Hendir has to clean up the political fallout of her absence and how he ensures the Avvar do not fall towards (intellectual?) darkness. We know that Tyrdda leaves once her eldest child is capable of leading the tribe, but we don't know how or where she goes. The title implies she goes to her lover, but there is no communication between Tyrdda and the laughing Lady of the Skies like in all the stanzas prior. The Lady fell silent. There is no way for Tyrdda to know where she should go to find her lover. This might be a poetic way of saying that Tyrdda died, her spirit flying from her body to join her lover, and be the Lady's "spirit-bride" as she is called in the first line of the first stanza. 

 

Regarding the last two lines, I thought the subject was Tyrdda, not Hendyr. She chose her child to lead her clan, and then, after giving all her worldly possessions away as gifts, she left her tribe to find her lover.

 

Those missing last four lines really are suspicious though. Wait, let me check the war table missions related to Tyrdda.

[Illyria]

Tyrdda Bright-Axe Analysis

 

Please make a full version of this!  I really want to be able to read the whole analysis in one go!

[Fialka]

Let's all celebrate our Muggle Lavellan's. My little rebel girl.   She revels in her ordinary-ness.  She's enthralled by her teammates because to her they are the extraordinary ones. The anchor was an accident. Nothing more than the result of her being nosy...as usual.

Yes! Although my mage (human) playthrough was fun, my canon will be a non-mage Lavellan. I vastly prefer the idea of her being a nobody (beyond maybe being a decent fighter), even among her own clan. I definitely pick the 'not the Herald!' dialogue every chance I get. And I like the idea that the Anchor's power is super alien and seriously freaks her out.

 

Plus I like the idea of Solas falling for her, even though she's so far removed from the elves he knows that she doesn't even have magic (plus, like, almost every Solavellan fanfic I've read has her be a mage - and being the hipster i am I need to be different).

[Mims]

If there was ever a rumor of Lavellan and the Dread Wolf, I'm sure the chantry would spin it to indicate that the maker had conquered the 'pagan' religions. The herald of Andraste could tame even the dreaded wolf. 

[flabbadence]

If there was ever a rumor of Lavellan and the Dread Wolf, I'm sure the chantry would spin it to indicate that the maker had conquered the 'pagan' religions. The herald of Andraste could tame even the dreaded wolf. 

 

........This image has never looked more pleasing:

[Illyria]

If there was ever a rumor of Lavellan and the Dread Wolf, I'm sure the chantry would spin it to indicate that the maker had conquered the 'pagan' religions. The herald of Andraste could tame even the dreaded wolf. 

 

Divine Victoria Leliana would tell them sweetly to never say that again.

 

And none of them ever would.

[Fialka]

........This image has never looked more pleasing:

See, I was going to post a 'puke' face, but this is more effective.

[nikki-tikki]

Divine Victoria Leliana would tell them sweetly to never say that again.

 

And none of them ever would.

Idk who is worse as Divine, Lelianna or Vivienne....

[flabbadence]

See, I was going to post a 'puke' face, but this is more effective.

 

Innit?