153429 réponses à ce sujet

[almasy87]

Alright, so the following is not related to a previous discussion, it's just a thought.

I know, many people think Solas is just a pseudonym for Fen'Harel in his original form. I still think Solas might be the elf (body) that took in Fen'Harel's soul. So, please just take this as a basis and follow me from there.

 

I wonder what happens to the original soul of a person if that person is "infiltrated" by a god's soul. When Morrigan learns of Flemeth's means of extending her lifespan she sees it like giving up everything she is, like her soul was killed and Flemeth would take over her body. However, when we hear Flemeth speak it seems more like both souls would merge. Flemeth always points out how she is "also an old woman", what pain she had to endure, "Someday, someone will summarise the terrible events of your life so quickly" and so on. It's not like she dismissed Flemeth's personal past, so Flemeth (the woman) still seems to be there, a real part of her, not just Mythal in Flemeth's body.

In such a case I assume that the body's original soul will also influence the god's soul, maybe add other motives and morals to the god's point of view. Might that not explain some of Solas' actions and his hesitation? Maybe that the part of Solas' original soul allows to fall in love and wish to help the people etc., while the part of Fen'Harel's soul is all focused on achieving his goals, making his plan work by all means necessary? Like Solas smoothing Fen'Harel and Fen'Harel strengthening Solas? Maybe these two confronting parts of the new "merged soul" are in a conflict with each other, at least sometimes, resulting in his a bit inconsistent behaviour?

Yeah, I thought that as well to be honest. Because Flemythal seems to remember/have feelings coming from both Flemeth and Mythal. 
But then does that mean that the elf Solas agreed to receive Fen'harel's soul? 

[Siha]

Yeah, I thought that as well to be honest. Because Flemythal seems to remember/have feelings coming from both Flemeth and Mythal. 
But then does that mean that the elf Solas agreed to receive Fen'harel's soul? 

Yes, and why would he not? A boy who never felt quite comfortable in the "real world", drawn to the Fade and befriending spirts. Sheltering an old god's soul should be very much in line with his ideals and desires. I am sure the caring nature, the wish to rebuild, and the smpathy for misunderstood creatures is also a trait from the original Solas. Probably the reason why Fen'Harel approached him in the first place.

[Giton]

Let me go one better:

 

Odi et amo. Quare id faciam, fortasse requiris?

nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior.

 

I loath, I love. How can you do such a thing you may ask?

I know not, but those are my feelings and I am in torment...

 

Catullus. Simple two lines. It slays.

 

[Yeah, and that's my own clumsy translation...]

I love me some Catullus, especially naughty, naughty Catullus 16. The link may be NSFW--or NSFW-y for a Wikipedia article.

 

Edit: I couldn't find the original source for the comic I originally posted.  

[Addai]

I don't like the dualist explanation for Solas' being, but aside from that, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Mythal was murdered- Fen'Harel never was, as far as we know. Why would he even have to body hop?

[Avejajed]

*Morrigan takes down dragon*

Inquisitor: How many bars do you have NOW, Cory? Huh? Huh?

Corypheus: Dammit! I should have battled somewhere with better reception!

This made me laugh so hard I woke up my sleeping nephew.

[Siha]

I don't like the dualist explanation for Solas' being, but aside from that, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Mythal was murdered- Fen'Harel never was, as far as we know. Why would he even have to body hop?

Maybe they always had to? "Bodies are such limiting things". Maybe a god is just an essence, not bound to a physical body at all? Would at least resemble the common notion of godhood in our world.

[Armdin]

A small off-topic question (since I'm in the middle of doing it now); did anyone ever allow the War table missions to run their duration?

 

I'll admit I always cheese it by changing the date/time on my PS4, partially because I hate leaving an area unfinished but mostly because I can't stand the real-time duration on missions. This isn't a mobile game, Bioware! Cut that crap out! But seriously I love you, Bioware. *smooch smooch*

[Elessara]

A small off-topic question (since I'm in the middle of doing it now); did anyone ever allow the War table missions to run their duration?

 

I'll admit I always cheese it by changing the date/time on my PS4, partially because I hate leaving an area unfinished but mostly because I can't stand the real-time duration on missions. This isn't a mobile game, Bioware! Cut that crap out! But seriously I love you, Bioware. *smooch smooch*

 

I did the first couple of times I played through.  And then I was like ok, I did it the "right" way ... now it's time to cheat!

[BoscoBread]

Maybe they always had to? "Bodies are such limiting things". Maybe a god is just an essence, not bound to a physical body at all? Would at least resemble the common notion of godhood in our world.

That would likely be true except for the fact that Solas adamantly states that they - so he - weren't gods.   He recognizes that bodies are limiting things because he spends an inordinate amount of time with spirits who live in semi-existence.  He's still flesh and can still die and get sick - you see this during the Redcliffe quest if you take him. If he was just an essence, why not shuck off the meat sack and flee?

[Armdin]

That would likely be true except for the fact that Solas adamantly states that they - so he - weren't gods.   He recognizes that bodies are limiting things because he spends an inordinate amount of time with spirits who live in semi-existence.  He's still flesh and can still die and get sick - you see this during the Redcliffe quest if you take him. If he was just an essence, why not shuck off the meat sack and flee?

 

Hur hur hur.

Yes I am 12 years old.

[Maria13]

I love me some Catullus, especially naughty, naughty Catullus 16. The link may be NSFW--or NSFW-y for a Wikipedia article.

 

Edit: I couldn't find the original source for the comic I originally posted.  

 

Catullus rocks but why are the translations so bloody stilted...

 

'bout time someone went for it

 

Spoiler for obscenity.

 

Spoiler

I'm going to **** you up the arse and come in your mouth

 

Bloody motherfuckers...

 

Someone should rap Catullus

[Maria13]

 

Solas, the amiable wolf...

[Siha]

That would likely be true except for the fact that Solas adamantly states that they - so he - weren't gods.   He recognizes that bodies are limiting things because he spends an inordinate amount of time with spirits who live in semi-existence.  He's still flesh and can still die and get sick - you see this during the Redcliffe quest if you take him. If he was just an essence, why not shuck off the meat sack and flee?

Them not being gods does not quite disprove the idea that they needed to change bodies (in my eyes it's rather the opposite, if anything at all). And he cannot flee in the future because where to? What body could he use? The body of the dying guy next to him? He needs a willing host after all, not just anybody. There is nowhere to go. And also, what for? He's given up by that point, pragmatically thinking there's no hope left.

 

I really respect that there are different opinions here. I rather think that it is completely open. There's no "evidence" whatsoever. The few facts we know could support both theories. If one of both were clearly and obviously correct BioWare would not sternly avoid answering this question. I am sure they arranged the lore so that none of both ideas can be dismissed readily.

[Sister Squish]

Collected Discussion on BROODMOTHERS

(spoilered for size) #mordinscienceteam

Spoiler

Sorry this is a bit off topic but I know this thread is full of lore buffs and smarty-pantses. 

 

Do broodmothers have a definite lifespan? Regular darkspawn are immortal b/c of the taint, but broodmothers are not true darkspawn, just tainted/mutated females of various species. Considering how fast the Mother was able to field an entire ARMY, how has thedas not been completely overrun by darkspawn???

 

This has been my question FOR A WHILE. Hence my shriek question. We know they have elven broodmothers.. somewhere underground. There should be more of them. Unless they use the shrieks to do the digging because they already have sword-space arms and they dig faster. But that's just silly.

I'd imagine a broodmother is capable of living a MINIMUM of double the average healthy mortal lifespan. But I'm also unaware of how long darkspawn... incubate. Do they have an average 9 month birth cycle? Or are they having 20-50 darkspawn chid'rens every week? 

 

The Mother managed to birth an entire ARMY of children between her awakening by the Architect and DAO:A. That suggests a fairly short gestation. (I think the mother was turned just after Urthemiel bit the dust.)

 

Darkspawn don't eat- confirmed by Gaider. I mean, they do eat, but they don't need to. He said they eat "for another purpose." I take that to be a blood magic thing. They're sustained by the Blight, the same way elves in Uthenera can be sustained by the Fade alone.
 
And maybe that's why Solas says what would happen if the Wardens' plan succeeds could be even worse. Darkspawn with nothing to occupy them, driven mad by the silence like the Mother was. We see what happens when humans and elves find their gods are silent.

 

The poem makes it fairly clear. A woman is taken, fed tainted flesh, and raped. After which she goes mad and feasts on non-tainted flesh and grows. 

 

http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Hespith

 

The poem is at the bottom. 

 

Ah, I found where I thought Broodmothers become inactive during the periods between a Blight:

 

"She also charges another disciple The Lost with defending Kal'Hirol where she houses several unawakened broodmothers who provide darkspawn troops for her." - Snipped from Wiki.

 

Looking at it now though, it looks more like they're Broodmothers not yet seperated from the Call, not actually asleep/inactive.

 

That would actually make some sense.  They still are "living" creatures in a sense.  Can be killed, possibly subject to wear and tear.  Birthin' hundreds of darkspawn probably is physically draining.  So I mean they really only "exist" to create troops during wartime.  I mean the darkspawn aren't concerned with populating a species.  That's not their prime directive.   The taint programs them to simply find the Old Gods and then what??  What is supposed to happen? What is the Blight supposed to do? 

 

<snip>

Although, one must note that the darkspawn want fertile women to serve them, and Grey Warden women are practically sterile thanks to the taint. It's possible the darkspawn sense this (since Wardens and darkspawn can sense each other, especially Wardens so far gone they hear the same music as darkspawn) and so don't want them for Broodmothers. In fact, I'm almost sure I read a quote somewhere (but can't find it now) where an angry fan called Gaider out on putting Grey Warden women in the position to get turned into Broodmothers, and he calmly responded that Grey Warden women have limited reproductive abilities. I can't remember exactly what he said, but he basically implied that they're safe in that area thanks to the side effect of the Joining limiting their fertility.

[Pinax]

Spoiler

I absolutely agree about the inconsistency. Hence I do not cling to every single sentence ever said, because BW often just changes lore and I understand that. Sometimes something does not work out (anymore) and so you drop it. As a long time comic book fan I have seen it all come and go.

 

I think something can be "a tool" without having created it yourself. I see, let's say, racism and understand that I can use the people's fear of strangers to make them follow me. Maybe I don't even believe that any race is worth less than another. But if I hunger for power and I understand how much power you can get by feeding off the fear of others, how you can use it to make them follow your orders, than I might use rasist theories and terminology to achieve my goals. So I think it is possible to use the Blight as a tool (knowing it makes Darkspawn unite) without being able to create the taint.

 

My asusmption is that the OGS emits the Song, which attracts Darkspawn, i.e., makes them look for the OG in the first place. I assume the OGS can sing even without having found its vessel (a tainted dragon) already. I am not sure the Darkspawn themselves taint the OGS in the first place. But even if so, it might take only one Darkspawn to do that and once the soul is tainted, the others follow the Calling (Song). Or the OGS sings either way, tainted or not, and the Darkspawn are attracted to this Song and find it this way. Maybe the nature of the Song changes once the OGS is corrupted by the taint, I am not sure but it's possible.

 

I do not assume the Darkspawn have a motive. They are pretty much mindless cattle. They remind me of insects that gather to swarms but the internal motivation does not go beyond just doing that. Like a force of nature. Maybe an intrinsic desire for strength in numbers. Or they are just driven by the Song and cannot but obey.

 

I assume, as you do, that the Blight is something of its own and is connected to the Song, uses it. The Darkspawn just follow the Song, assemble, build the army needed to---- this we don't know yet.

And Corypheus is very arrogant, he is not aware of what he really is, he sees himself in a much better position. I suppose he is also (partially?) controlled by the Blight but does not understand that. He realizes how the Blight has power and thinks he can use that power to achieve his goals, without being aware that the Blight is stronger than him.

 

Anyway, I don't know either, it's just the theory I base my POW on.

I also try not to stick in into every single drop of information and not to create too overwhelming theories: I think it's the game developers right to change the lore/story as they want to and a player sticking too much into some head canon risks only a heavy disappointment. I also try not to go to much into parallels between the gaming world and historical events or literature, as this is a big against my belief what makes a coherent story. In short: I think a good story explains itself by... itself, any additional associations can just make it grander for the recipient, though if the recipient needs to seek explanation of the story out of it... then it's not such a good story and I truly hope DA will turn out to be one like that.

 

Anyway, after DA:I, Solasmance and this terrible and wonderful (paraphrasing Cass ) cliffhanger at the end... I need to seek for sense and answers! I think I'm blighted by seeking information on DA now, digging and hoping to find my archdemon of knowledge, lol Maybe actually this is what drives the darkspawn in seeking the archdemons: looking for the sense of their condition...? Just an instant thought.

 

Anyway, did some basic research, revised again all the scraps of information I gathered through the games, made notes (and graphs) and here are the basic things I came out with. Shortly speaking: it all brought me again underground and again the Deep Roads seem to be the place of all answers and more questions.

These are more draft notes, mostly to show how my mind was mingling for answers (extremely long post, so hiding it under Spoiler tag, not to dominate the whole page).

 

Spoiler

1. Blight starts underground: dwarven kingdoms are the 1st to fallen to the darkspawn, darkspawn emerge from the earth

1.1. Unknown origin of the Blight: chantry believes it's the magisters fault, dwarfs not

1.2. OGS slumber underground

 

2. Corypheus goes to Golden City, as it's Dumat who calls him to go there, promises the godhood (Legacy DLC). Corypheus claims the Golden City was already black/tainted, when he came there.

 

3. So: Black City (BC)/Golden City is also underground?

3.1. Corrupted magisters are expelled from BC and come out as 1st darkspawn, so as point 1 is confirmed as a fact, then it supports the point 3 theory, unless there is some direct connection between the Fade (where the BC is supposed to be?) and the Deep Roads.

3.2. This all underground place of all mystical stuff made me think of the Stone

3.2.1. Dwarfs think of the Stone is a "she"

3.2.2. There is a cult of Ancestors who live(d) according to Stone's will

3.2.3. Does all this does not sound similar to the guardians of Well of Sorrows or the Well of Sorrows itself? Bound to the will of the deity, ancient knowledge transmitted through generations to the ones willing to obey to the deity's will...

_{3.2.4. Can the Stone by somehow linked to Mythal and can references to Mythal stop popping out of everywhere in this game?!}

 

4. So what is the Stone? All the above made me think of the codex entry of Mythal as Great Protector which echoes the story of the destruction of the earth by the sun and how Mythal and Elgar'nan bring balance between these two.

4.1. Here again the Earth is "she", she's the mother, where the sun is male, father.

4.1.1. Can the dwarfs worship the Earth directly, as the Stone...?

_{4.1.2. Can the associations I see between the Well of Sorrow guardians and the dwarven Ancestors come from the fact Mythal is Earth's creature?}

4.2. Mythal is a creature born "out of the sea of the Earth's tears": there is definitely a connection between Mythal and Earth only, while Elgar'nan is the child of Earth and Sun. Does it has any meaning? Let's leave it aside as for now.

4.3. In this story Sun is depicted as a destructive force which needs taming but also is required to grow life.

4.4. Again: dichotomy, this time Earth and Sun and their children are the ones which negotiate and restore balance between these two.

 

5. In the meantime we have all the time the motive of the song - I tried to associate some motives from the game in context of all thoughts above and came out with the following dichotomies. (More questions than answers though).

lyrium - red lyrium

OGS - tainted OGS?

Earth? - Sun?

Stone? - Thedas?

 

I know it's more a collection of loose ends rather than any proper theory, though... thought I can share it to discuss. I strongly believe discussions are a fertilizer to get more answers

[Giton]

Catullus rocks but why are the translations so bloody stilted...

 

'bout time someone went for it

 

Spoiler for obscenity.

 

Spoiler

I'm going to **** you up the arse and come in your mouth

 

Bloody motherfuckers...

 

Someone should rap Catullus

I do, however, enjoy how the early translators tried to translate the text. You can see the old men putting their wooden pipes down, taking a deep breath, trying a translation, becoming uncomfortable, then deciding to omit the lines "because the poem is better without them," smiling with satisfaction, putting on their tweed jackets, and calling it a day. Or just translating it as "wrestling."

 

More related to the thread (kind of), I bet Dorian has fun with those Latin terms when it is time to inquisit the Inquisitor.

 

Also, if Latin is Tevinter-ese, does that mean Cornflakes' mother tongue is Latin? (I wish Dorian would curse at him in Latin. That would be fun.) 

[ByTheCode]

I have a question regarding What Pride Had Wrought when you're romancing Solas.

 

Spoiler

If you drink from the Well of Sorrows, how does that affect your relationship with Solas? Yes, I already know the very ending part, so I'm not taking that into account. Just the relationship aspect.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Cute title.

[Elessara]

I have a question regarding What Pride Had Wrought when you're romancing Solas.

 

Spoiler

If you drink from the Well of Sorrows, how does that affect your relationship with Solas? Yes, I already know the very ending part, so I'm not taking that into account. Just the relationship aspect.

 

He disapproves.  It's not even Greatly Disapproves, just Disapproves.  And I think the dialogue is the same for for a friend.  He's mad because you've basically given up your free will.

 

So really it doesn't affect the relationship at all as far as we know.

[Gervaise]

Back on the topic of Solas having duality; there was a snippet of conversation with Cassandra where she is asking him if he had encountered Templars before as an apostate and he says that his only experience of them was as an "infant" (I think I got this word right).   In other words before he came into his powers and therefore they did not present a problem.    Now I may have misheard but there are occasions when he says stuff that sounds like he experienced life as an ordinary elf at one time, so unless he is outright lying in order to make his cover story more convincing, I keep coming back to the idea that he was "possessed" by Fen'Harel, but in the same way that Anders or Wynne or even Flemeth was.

 

Now the Dalish may have got their history and legends of the gods a bit wonky but there is an element of truth in them as well.    They have a belief that Fen'Harel stalks the Fade looking to capture souls (or something like that).    If you remove the hostile element to this belief then you are left with Fen'Harel walking the Fade looking for souls to interact with.      Solas was definitely a dreamer and such people are very attractive to all spirits, but particularly a powerful Fade spirit like Fen'Harel.    Also it may be that Fen'Harel himself was a material being originally but may be had to surrender that material existence in order to imprison his fellow gods.    So unlike Mythal he wasn't murdered but he did effectively die in the material world, voluntarily giving up his existence there.

 

Of course it could be that Solas is simply Fen'Harel under another name but somehow it doesn't feel right to me.

[Avejajed]

Hi I have a dumb question:

 

Where the hell is my override folder on DA O? I downloaded a few mods but I'm not finding the folder so I thought maybe I'm just going crazy. I swear I've done mods before it's just been awhile.

 

Did I have to download something first before I download the mods? It's for hairstyles and eye colors.

[Maria13]

I do, however, enjoy how the early translators tried to translate the text. You can see the old men putting their wooden pipes down, taking a deep breath, trying a translation, becoming uncomfortable, then deciding to omit the lines "because the poem is better without them," smiling with satisfaction, putting on their tweed jackets, and calling it a day. Or just translating it as "wrestling."

 

More related to the thread (kind of), I bet Dorian has fun with those Latin terms when it is time to inquisit the Inquisitor.

 

Also, if Latin is Tevinter-ese, does that mean Cornflakes' mother tongue is Latin? (I wish Dorian would curse at him in Latin. That would be fun.) 

 

I am pretty certain that the mutterings you hear from the Venatori (yeah, and that that name too...) are Latin.

[HayleyDawn]

So, Im at the salon getting my hair dyed Lavallan white. I figured if anyone could appreciate that, itd be you guys! Haha

Spoiler

[BoscoBread]

I have a question regarding What Pride Had Wrought when you're romancing Solas.

 

Spoiler

If you drink from the Well of Sorrows, how does that affect your relationship with Solas? Yes, I already know the very ending part, so I'm not taking that into account. Just the relationship aspect.

None at all. He yells at you - but he yells at any Inquisitor(romanced or no) if you drink from the well.    The final scene is the exact same either way.

[Illyria]

I have a question regarding What Pride Had Wrought when you're romancing Solas.

 

Spoiler

If you drink from the Well of Sorrows, how does that affect your relationship with Solas? Yes, I already know the very ending part, so I'm not taking that into account. Just the relationship aspect.

 

It does add a nice extra level of Lavellan angst (if you want that) as you can headcanon that she believes this is the reason for their breakup.