153429 réponses à ce sujet

[RynJ]

Same here.  I really, really don't like the idea that romantic love is the only way to "save" someone.  And while it's not true of every BioWare LI, some of them do have an unfortunate habit of gating meaningful character growth behind the romance.  Jack and Thane in ME2 are the ones that immediately come to mind, though Jack's better about it in ME3, and IMO Blackwall's character comes through much more clearly on his romance path.

 

Maybe that's what bothers me too. It's not  that I dislike the idea that his love for Lavellan is influencing him, which should be a given and could even be an important factor in his decision. Loving someone can do that, especially when he seems to love Lavellan for giving him new perspective and opening his eyes some more.

 

It's just that having romance be the deciding factor makes it seem like Lavellan is the only thing standing between Solas and darkness. I don't like that. If he's to turn away from a dark path, I want it to be the conclusion he comes to based on everything he's gone through and everyone he's met and the new perspectives he's gained. Not just Lavellan being so incredibly super awesome that she changes his entire outlook on life. That cheapens Solas' intelligence and worth as a character, to me. That's not to say a romance with Lavellan shouldn't be cited as important, I would hope it was important, but....not that much of a deciding factor. Friendship should yield the same results, and not just his friendship with the Inquisitor at that.

[Colonelkillabee]

Friendship should yield the same results, and not just his friendship with the Inquisitor at that.

Could be a moment where you have to make your teammates talk, and depending on who you bring, it has varying results. Obviously Cole must come.

 

I don't like that idea either, only because I don't want it to feel like inquisitors who just befriend him have a lesser relationship. I mean, obviously being his lover would make you very close, but there's some things friends only know about one another that a lover might not. Basically, it can be a strong relationship too, even if it's not lover love, and I don't like feeling like the path I took with someone is somehow not valuable or worth anything.

 

Though if it happened, then I'd just get over it. It's also realistic that a lover could convince someone of something that a friend could not. It'd just be kind of disappointing is all.

[Mims]

I really doubt that the only good outcome would come from romance. Friendship can be just as important. And ultimately, Solas romancers are a very small percentage of the gaming public in general. I believe most don't even do the romance side quests. So, it would be crazy to make an outcome only a small, small minority would ever see.

 

I do think its possible that Solas-romance might make it easier to get a good outcome. But that's about it. 

[Aravasia]

Hello I am back

 

 

I think I've read most of these theories in some form before already (somewhere in this thread, the search button is your friend), so I'm just going to zero in a few new details here (mostly because my body needs to sleep soon)

 

Re: Draconis

Spoiler

Holy **** there was an unknown eighth Old God? And going by what you said, it does make sense if this is Fen'Harel. I mean, you even see that dragon blood symbol in his rotunda (scroll in a bucket atop the scaffolding), and since he's a symbol of rebellion, then of course it would also make sense that he was stricken from the record.

 

There's another likely suspect though. Whoever's being referred to here:

http://dragonage.wik...t_Elven_Writing

 

Some have theorized this is Fen'Harel as well, especially because of those many shifting eyes at the end. So this can also support your theory. Or there might be another dude who stole the form of gods (probably dragon form). Anyway, this Draconis constellation is really interesting. I wonder what this means for the Blights if Archdemons really are the Old Gods.

 

Re: Maker and the Old Gods

Spoiler

Nice find about the Chant saying the Old Gods are actually the Maker's first children there, never noticed that. Though to be fair, it's the Chant, so this could just be Andrastian propaganda to try and demonize/subsume the Old Gods, the way Christianity has often done with "pagan" faiths. Calling the Old Gods the Maker's first children makes them inferior, which would then result in more followers for the Maker

 

But if we assume this to be true, then it's really interesting because as you said, all this time the ones who've been called the Maker's first children are the spirits of the Fade. And what if both these things are true? That would mean the Old Gods are spirits. And since I'm pretty much convinced by now that the Old Gods = Elven Pantheon, that would mean the Elven Gods too were spirits. Maybe not spirits the way Cole is, or Justice before he stepped through the Veil, or demons. But even Solas, when you press him about his belief in the elven gods, says, "Something existed to start the legends! If not gods, then mages, or spirits, or something we’ve never seen."

 

I think you'll enjoy madar's theory on the primeval entities for more of this.

 

Re: Mythal's betrayer

Spoiler

Ok, I am now convinced Dirthamen really is the traitor. For more Dirthamen douchebaggery, check out lizasaurus's analysis of the Saga of Tyrdda Bright-Axe.

 

I need to bring Solas around to that temple again and pay more attention to what he says. And maybe bring Cole along.

 

Re: Old Gods ~ Elven Gods lineup

Spoiler

There've been a lot of different lineups so far. I remember some people saying Razikale's probably Dirthamen, because him and Lucasan (Falon'Din) are the only two Old Gods left, and Dirthamen and Falon'Din do fit Mystery and Chaos, and it would be ultra cool to have a double blight in a future game. And that Dumat could also have been Elgar'nan, and Andoral = Andruil., leaving Fen'Harel (before this find about Draconis), Mythal, and Juno out.

 

Some have theorized that Juno's actually a dwarf. lizasaurus has a lot more on this, but basically, check his mural out. And we just really like the thought that Juno's probably Sandal now (because Sandal can dream, holy ****, and he most likely saw Flemeth, and dwarves supposedly can't dream). Anyway, again, check liz's stuff out.

 

Ok, really need to sleep now. Goodnight! 

Yay! Replies to the theory! *Puts on Sherlock Hat*

 

On Draconis:

Spoiler

Yes, seriously that symbol is everywhere. I can't believe I didn't recall it when I first played DAI, but I'm now in a DA2 playthrough  and that symbol is on every crate, scroll, door, and building. Well, actually, not all buildings, just the one's in the lower reaches of town, especially prominant in the elven alienage. Which leads me to believe it was some symbol that the slaves invoked when they rebelled against Kirkwall. I wonder if back then they knew it's original meaning. If it is of Fen-Harel, it's kind of sad how he went from a symbol of hope to that of dread and fear.

 

I've also thought that maybe the Pantheon had been some type of spirit/elf hybrids. Rather than, 'just mages' or 'just spirits.' This would also fit Cole's dialogue towards Solas of how he 'exists in both places.'

 

And before, Razikale was basically my only candidate for Dirthamen, I believe that it might be him as well. I just went with the assumption based off of the hinting with sacrifices and Andruil. I really need to look at all these theories you're talking about, I've been able to speculate so little on June, but the idea that he may have been a dwarf is fascinating. 

 

I have also been straining to keep myself awake becase, just, ah, speculation! I can't stop! But, I shall return and hopefully build more on this. 

[Pinax]

Here is the Codex entry: http://dragonage.wik...ren_of_Andraste

 

It doesn't really go into why, just an "and out of the blue!" explanation. It does say that she had two daughters, one whom had a daughter of her own, but that had perished. And then another daughter whom ran away with a Tevinter mage (the little minx.) And of course...she had only daughters, whom also had only daughters. Hence why the bloodline was lost. We know that Flemeth has other daughters, such as Yavana, and unless she 'adopted' her as well (I can just imagine Flemeth going around kidnapping babies) then I am inclined to believe that they are of her blood. Plus, her and Morrigan just look so much alike, I would be surprised. How she had her, is another matter. Flemeth is pretty old. Maybe Morrigan's story about her shape-shifting and seducing men might be true. Another theory is that Maric is Morrigan's father, and that's what her and Maric were doing in the hut when they had their little 'discussion' in the Stolen Throne. Though, that puts a whole new twist on the Dark Ritual. I believe it's unlikely we will ever get a clear answer on Morrigan's father either way. But, I am inclined to believe that they are indeed blood related. Who knows, maybe Morrigan is even her granddaughter. 

I actually always treated Morrigan as being raised by Flemeth only. Just reviewed some of Morrigans DA:O conversations where she claims she cannot confirm that Flemeth gave birth to her, but Flemeth always treated her as her own blood (link). Flemeth, when she asks Morrigan to join the Warden and Alistair, also claims she gives to the Warden what's "dearest to her" and, as we know from DA:O and DA:I, the long term goal of this most probably was mostly the DR and OGB to keep the OGS. Flemeth seems to be a good trickster herself.

 

I also quite don't understand the relation Morrigan and Flemeth have: it's really a love/hate relationship. Really, a psychologist would be needed to unplot this twist.

 

What is also interesting is that Flemeth in DA:O claims the 5th Blight is far more dangerous than it seems, something which may destroy even her. Is there some additional threat she fears of? Like: being corrupted herself? Need to think about it.

 

One more vague thought here: can't say too much why now but I tend to incline to a thought that Fen'Harel is actually Mythal's son. But do you refer to your own son as "old friend"? :/ Can the Quizzy joke in Temple of Mythal that Solas and Morrigan when they argue they look like they could have kissed each other? This does not make sense :/ Unless Flemythal is really his mother, but hides the truth from the Dread Wolf...? Just a thought.

[LobselVith8]

I imagine there'd be a lot of slandering from the chuckleheads outside of the thread, laughing like hyenas about how they murdered that high and mighty elven "god" and put him in his place, and blah blah. Since everyone else would have to deal with him otherwise.

 

It's quite possible that may not even be an option, any more than we can kill Morrigan despite having the option to oppose her. Frankly, the behavior outside this thread only makes me appreciate this thread more and more as one of the friendliest places on BSN. I'm grateful to Solas for that, both the fictional character and our own Solas.

 

Could be a moment where you have to make your teammates talk, and depending on who you bring, it has varying results. Obviously Cole must come.

 

I don't like that idea either, only because I don't want it to feel like inquisitors who just befriend him have a lesser relationship. I mean, obviously being his lover would make you very close, but there's some things friends only know about one another that a lover might not. Basically, it can be a strong relationship too, even if it's not lover love, and I don't like feeling like the path I took with someone is somehow not valuable or worth anything.

 

Though if it happened, then I'd just get over it. It's also realistic that a lover could convince someone of something that a friend could not. It'd just be kind of disappointing is all.

 

I'm sure a romanced Lavellan would have a much more intimate relationship to Solas, but I'd like to think that someone who befriended him would also be able to connect with him.

[BoscoBread]

I really doubt that the only good outcome would come from romance. Friendship can be just as important. And ultimately, Solas romancers are a very small percentage of the gaming public in general. I believe most don't even do the romance side quests. So, it would be crazy to make an outcome only a small, small minority would ever see.

 

I do think its possible that Solas-romance might make it easier to get a good outcome. But that's about it. 

That's my thought. I think people get hung up on the tarot card but it's no different than how Cass' works.    I would really hate for BW to sort of take away from the friendships that you can build up and fling it back in your face "Friendships aren't important!" I would be devastated if it was Cass and only a romanced Cass can be talked down. She's my bff!  A friendmanced Solas/Inky deserve their Xander/Willow yellow crayon moment dammit!

[Elessara]

Neither do I. I think that's what his romanced card tells us... Did I read somewhere that you can get that card even if you don't romance him but are on friendly terms??? Because that would proves the point even more, it is what happens if he can achieve some sort of balance within the present world-state...

 

No, the Heirophant card is only present if you romance him.

[Colonelkillabee]

I also quite don't understand the relation Morrigan and Flemeth have: it's really a love/hate relationship. Really, a psychologist would be needed to unplot this twist.

LOL after observing my mother around my grandmother for a very long time, I can confirm this isn't so strange amongst mothers and daughters. More dysfunctional ones maybe but that can apply to a lot of people.

[LobselVith8]

What is also interesting is that Flemeth in DA:O claims the 5th Blight is far more dangerous than it seems, something which may destroy even her. Is there some additional threat she fears of? Like: being corrupted herself? Need to think about it.

 

It may have concerned the Old God Baby ritual (since she extracts the 'old god soul' from Keiran for reasons yet unknown), as well as concern about Morrigan. who may be in danger if the entirety of Ferelden fell to the Blight; after all, Asha'bellanar seems more than adequate at handling the darkspawn when she rescues Hawke as a High Dragon, after all.

[The Oracle]

Yeah. i get the feeling that, given the major "OMG" ending of DA:I, his plot will be pretty big in anything that follows. Therefore, it would just be ridiculous of BW to make his redemption (if indeed that is the way the story is going) only achievable through a romance. It would cut out a huge percentage of players, given how strictly gated he is. Na, I figure that perhaps close friendship as well as romance would be equal. He is very complimentary about how important those relationships are to him.

[BoscoBread]

It's quite possible that may not even be an option, any more than we can kill Morrigan despite having the option to oppose her. Frankly, the behavior outside this thread only makes me appreciate this thread more and more as one of the friendliest places on BSN. I'm grateful to Solas for that, both the fictional character and our own Solas.

 

 

I'm sure a romanced Lavellan would have a much more intimate relationship to Solas, but I'd like to think that someone who befriended him would also be able to connect with him.

I agree.  Maybe it's just my own baggage - but  I'd sort of kind of question the type of person that he was if he didn't give his close friends a second thought. 

 

Also, yes this thread is very safe.  I peruse some of the others one just to watch them go up in flames(current favorite is the now locked "Leliana is a Slattern"), but god forbid try having a fun discussion on there. 

[Mims]

 

One more vague thought here: can't say too much why now but I tend to incline to a thought that Fen'Harel is actually Mythal's son. But do you refer to your own son as "old friend"? :/ Can the Quizzy joke in Temple of Mythal that Solas and Morrigan when they argue they look like they could have kissed each other? This does not make sense :/ Unless Flemythal is really his mother, but hides the truth from the Dread Wolf...? Just a thought.

 

Fen'Harel probably isn't actually Mythal's son. But as the 'mother' of the pantheon, it is very likely that their relationship mirrored it. Presumably Mythal's own sons had failed her, possibly even betrayed her. Fen'Harel was the outlier. As far as we know, he had no family. We can't really speculate what might have happened between them. But my read is that, even if it was never spoken, one or both of them held the other in a sort of familial respect. So 'old friend' is more accurate. 

[Elessara]

It may have concerned the Old God Baby ritual (since she extracts the 'old god soul' from Keiran for reasons yet unknown), as well as concern about Morrigan. who may be in danger if the entirety of Ferelden fell to the Blight; after all, Asha'bellanar seems more than adequate at handling the darkspawn when she rescues Hawke as a High Dragon, after all.

 

Honestly I think they had Flemeth take the Old God soul strictly to get it out of the picture.  Since not everyone did the Dark Ritual, there's this potentially huge world changing person out there carrying around an Old God soul but the devs can't do anything *really* important with it.  Kieran can't have a large impact on the storyline unless they really want to retcon things and *that* would cause an angry backlash.  I know they already reconned Leliana and Wynne but honestly their deaths weren't a major plot point and the Dark Ritual is.  To retcon that it always took place or that Morrigan always somehow got an OGB would anger a lot of people because it was a major choice that's now be completely taken out of their hands.

[Pinax]

Neither do I. I think that's what his romanced card tells us... Did I read somewhere that you can get that card even if you don't romance him but are on friendly terms??? Because that would proves the point even more, it is what happens if he can achieve some sort of balance within the present world-state...

 

Sorry if this was said before (catching up the thread which grew immensely in last minutes): if you befriend him you still get the Dread Wolf card.

 

Although I also find it unjust if the romance was the only way to "save him". This would exclude all non fem!Lavellan characters? Also BW usually does not built up their games like this to make the romance having such a heavy impact on the story progress, usually it's:

- main missions outcomes fix the world state

- any second level mix-ups are on side quests + romance options

so I doubt they would do this in DA.

[BoscoBread]

I also quite don't understand the relation Morrigan and Flemeth have: it's really a love/hate relationship. Really, a psychologist would be needed to unplot this twist.

It's a dysfunctional mother/daughter relationship...which is common.  Morrigan resents Flemeth for keeping her out of society and I think on a deeper level is incredibly hurt because I thinks she believes that her mother never loved her.  Morrigan believes that Flemeth just raised her like you would raise livestock.  To be pruned and trained for the time Flemeth was going to take over Morrigan's body.  At the end of the day, Morrigan is someone that desperately wants to love and be loved in return.  That's why that scene with Flemeth and her in the Fade is so amazing.  Just the way Morrigan spat that hate back in Flemeth's face and the look on Flemeth's face...*tears*.  

[Rabbitonfire]

O_o The thread title says its in progress but the google chat has been over since like... half a day? Is it still going on?

[Meer]

Since it was brought up again in passing in regards to how Solas DLC might play out, I've a wonder about the tarot. Forgive me if it's been asked before, but it's something I've worried about on my own for quite a while. Has it been confirmed that the Hierophant remains after the final battle on purpose? It would be so disappointing if all Inquisitors were meant to have The Tower and the flag wasn't set properly in the event Solas is romanced; I rather like the idea that the other card staying is meaningful.

[LadyKarrakaz]

Source 

[BoscoBread]

Since it was brought up again in passing in regards to how Solas DLC might play out, I've a wonder about the tarot. Forgive me if it's been asked before, but it's something I've worried about on my own for quite a while. Has it been confirmed that the Hierophant remains after the final battle on purpose? It would be so disappointing if all Inquisitors were meant to have The Tower and the flag wasn't set properly in the event Solas is romanced; I rather like the idea that the other card staying is meaningful.

We have no idea how critical those cards will be.  It may not mean anything other than it's merely a facet of that person's personality is.  The Tower remains for all non-romanced Inquisitors.  The Hierophant card remains for all romanced. I don't think it's a glitch.   I would imagine that would have already been fixed or addressed given how loud the Solasmancers have been.   

[LobselVith8]

Honestly I think they had Flemeth take the Old God soul strictly to get it out of the picture.  Since not everyone did the Dark Ritual, there's this potentially huge world changing person out there carrying around an Old God soul but the devs can't do anything *really* important with it.  Kieran can't have a large impact on the storyline unless they really want to retcon things and *that* would cause an angry backlash.  I know they already reconned Leliana and Wynne but honestly their deaths weren't a major plot point and the Dark Ritual is.  To retcon that it always took place or that Morrigan always somehow got an OGB would anger a lot of people because it was a major choice that's now be completely taken out of their hands.

 

I don't disagree, but I meant that Asha'bellanar wanted her daughter to accompany the Warden during the Fifth Blight because she wanted Morrigan to use the dark ritual, as Morrigan herself admits the night before the battle (as opposed to any direct threat to Asha'bellanar); Morrigan's own reasons for doing so are much more personal if the Warden is a friend or like a 'sister' to her, or if the Warden is someone she is romantically involved with.

 

I'm also wondering if Asha'bellanar's meeting (the one she makes an opaque reference to on Sundermount) was in reference to Solas.

[Aetheria]

You know, I would actually hate if romancing Solas was the only way to keep him from becoming the bad guy.

 

I'm not sure why. I suppose I should find it romantic but I just really don't like the idea of that. 

 

That would be lame, but I really don't think they'd do that. It's clear that the devs put a lot of work into making Solas a character that the Inquisitor could befriend, and it doesn't sound like adding a romance path changed that original plan much. There was a "bromance" thread a while back and I noticed a lot of players said that their Inquisitor was good friends with Solas, so I'm pretty sure that if we do get a chance to confront him later on, it'll provide just as much resolution for characters who were just friends.

 

I doubt that they'd let the player have that much influence anyway - if a character is already planned to do something world-changing, they're not going to let players intervene and split world-states so dramatically.

[Maria13]

LOL after observing my mother around my grandmother for a very long time, I can confirm this isn't so strange amongst mothers and daughters. More dysfunctional ones maybe but that can apply to a lot of people.

 

I wouldn't know anything whatsoever about that...

[Pinax]

It's a dysfunctional mother/daughter relationship...which is common.  Morrigan resents Flemeth for keeping her out of society and I think on a deeper level is incredibly hurt because I thinks she believes that her mother never loved her.  Morrigan believes that Flemeth just raised her like you would raise livestock.  To be pruned and trained for the time Flemeth was going to take over Morrigan's body.  At the end of the day, Morrigan is someone that desperately wants to love and be loved in return.  That's why that scene with Flemeth and her in the Fade is so amazing.  Just the way Morrigan spat that hate back in Flemeth's face and the look on Flemeth's face...*tears*.  

I also see it this way.

 

What troubles me though is that... the big Flemythal, The Mother of Everything is actually hated by her only child we know. Morrigan is afraid of Flemeth, obviously feels hurt, does not trust her... I appreciate this leaves me like: "huh, looks like you totally failed as mother, you super duper just and protector Mythal" :/ I know large part of DA:I lore is to bring more shades of grey into the world, including in most part the perspective on elvhen pantheon.

 

I wonder if relation between Flemeth and her other daughters was different (more trustful) and is Morrigan-Flemeth relation different because of something changed in Flemeth or because of Morrigan's personality.

[Elessara]

I don't disagree, but I meant that Asha'bellanar wanted her daughter to accompany the Warden during the Fifth Blight because she wanted Morrigan to use the dark ritual, as Morrigan herself admits the night before the battle (as opposed to any direct threat to Asha'bellanar); Morrigan's own reasons for doing so are much more personal if the Warden is a friend or like a 'sister' to her, or if the Warden is someone she is romantically involved with.

 

I'm also wondering if Asha'bellanar's meeting (the one she makes an opaque reference to on Sundermount) was in reference to Solas.

 

I think the meeting was in reference to the Warden meeting - either by killing her or agreeing to lie to Morrigan.  In part because Solas seems surprised and pleased that Mythal is still kicking around when you go to the Temple.