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[Illyria]

Legend suggests the Forgotten Ones were many, but even the names of most of them have been largely lost to time, making their title exceedingly appropriate. Some fragments of lore do remain, however, as do intimations of their intentions

http://dragonage.wik...nes#cite_note-6

 

Well that could really help out the Old Gods=Forgotten Ones theories. There were just three of them whose names survived the centuries.

As for Duncan's comment on the Eluvian, I think we have an explanation for that one. Namely, that the Vints commandeered Eluvians, but could only use them for long-distance communication. Duncan, not being an ancient elf expert, but still being pretty cool, knows of them as they were used by the Vints.

The ruin, though. Ugh. *flails*

 

I first thought that Duncan didn't know what he was talking about when it came to the eluvians, or he didn't want to tell the three armed Dalish that 'lol, this is a relic of your people' *smash*  Then I took a closer look at the eluvian on my latest DAO run (went Dalish to get some more lore out of it) and saw that the figures had rounded ears.

 

This raises some interesting questions:

 

Was this a retcon?  At some point between DAO and Witch Hunt were the eluvians changed from Tevinter to Elven?

 

Were the statues altered by humans at some point?

 

Or (and the most interesting) was this a human made eluvian from a time when humans and elves lived together?  The ruin that Tamlen and the Warden find does imply that humans and elves were living as equals (it's a human ruin with statues to elven gods, not something you'd expect to see if the elves were slaves).

[Colonelkillabee]

I first thought that Duncan didn't know what he was talking about when it came to the eluvians, or he didn't want to tell the three armed Dalish that 'lol, this is a relic of your people' *smash*  Then I took a closer look at the eluvian on my latest DAO run (went Dalish to get some more lore out of it) and saw that the figures had rounded ears.

 

This raises some interesting questions:

 

Was this a retcon?  At some point between DAO and Witch Hunt were the eluvians changed from Tevinter to Elven?

 

Were the statues altered by humans at some point?

 

Or (and the most interesting) was this a human made eluvian from a time when humans and elves lived together?  The ruin that Tamlen and the Warden find does imply that humans and elves were living as equals (it's a human ruin with statues to elven gods, not something you'd expect to see if the elves were slaves).

 

Just goes to show that the gods are their own and no respect of mortal races. In my opinion. The humans may have forgotten, but that doesn't make things beyond their understanding elven because they have innacurate stories about them.

[Eomie]

Ohhhh, Speaking of crazy theories, we know Dirthamen has two ravens Fear and Deceit. Has anyone considered that the Fear demon and Imshael could be those two 'ravens'? With Dirthamen gone there is know one to control them, so, they run around causing chaos!!

[Illyria]

Ohhhh, Speaking of crazy theories, we know Dirthamen has two ravens Fear and Deceit. Has anyone considered that the Fear demon and Imshael could be those two 'ravens'? With Dirthamen gone there is know one to control them, so, they run around causing chaos!!

 

Isn't Imsheal one of the Forbidden Ones, though?  There's been one per game so far.
 

[flabbadence]

:: Straightens tinfoil hate and hides in the corner :: Ugh I am wired and I have classes tomorrow.

 

I've just downloaded The Poetic Edda, by Henry Adams Bellows, and it's 500+ pages. LET'S DO THIS

[Colonelkillabee]

Ohhhh, Speaking of crazy theories, we know Dirthamen has two ravens Fear and Deceit. Has anyone considered that the Fear demon and Imshael could be those two 'ravens'? With Dirthamen gone there is know one to control them, so, they run around causing chaos!!

Could be. I always took the story of him and falon'din as a sign that elves had blood magic for some time. Though I guess the gods could bind demons without it in some other way, but they contributed knowledge of the grey warden blood ritual to the humans from arlathan, and of course there's morrigan's ritual.

[Eomie]

I thought there were two in the first..I do not remember any in the second, and you are correct he is a forgotten one. Hmmm, It was just something I was thinking about.....I am probably wrong....

[Colonelkillabee]

Isn't Imsheal one of the Forbidden Ones, though?  There's been one per game so far.
 

The forbidden ones could have been involved with elven gods at some point.

[Eomie]

I've just downloaded The Poetic Edda, by Henry Adams Bellows, and it's 500+ pages. LET'S DO THIS

I love norse mythology and I have many many many books on the subject.  YOU CAN DO THIS! If you decide you do not feel like reading it, you can always listen to it on audio...

[Eomie]

Okay, here is my confusion on demons teaching blood magic. Dreamers are the most susceptible to demons, but according to Solas, he does not use blood magic because it makes it harder to slip into the fade. So, why would they teach it to them in the first place?

[Illyria]

I thought there were two in the first..I do not remember any in the second, and you are correct he is a forgotten one. Hmmm, It was just something I was thinking about.....I am probably wrong....

 

He's a Forbidden One, the Forgotten Ones are the ones who warred with the elven gods.

 

You fight Gaxkang in DAO and Xebenkeck in DA2.

[Colonelkillabee]

Okay, here is my confusion on demons teaching blood magic. Dreamers are the most susceptible to demons, but according to Solas, he does not use blood magic because it makes it harder to slip into the fade. So, why would they teach it to them in the first place?

Well, no one really slips into the fade the way Solas does. And he isn't as tied to the physical as we already are. I doubt blood magic somehow dilludes the connection when you can trade life force for fade mana with it. Maybe it's a unique issue for Solas. Or he and his kind.

[Caddius]

I don't believe that. It's another conceit of the ideology. They need a secret police to enforce their system, so it's not self sustaining. The fact that they have to fight Tal Vashoth in Seheron shows that.
 
I didn't like Michel either, but otherwise I agree. Gaspard at least admits he's a putz and doesn't make any apologies for it.

I do believe the Qun would go on unchanged by the Triumvirate being wiped out. As in, the current Triumvirs being assassinated. They would simply get new Triumvirs and go on as before, albeit with improved security. The Tal-Vashoth that they fight in Seheron are themselves following the Demands of the Qun. If you leave the Qun, you are a savage bandit. The ones that really rock the boat just leave the whole jungle mess and give birth to the future Inquisitor. The presence of the Tal-Vashoth allows them an eternal boogeyman to blame failures on, an eternal hate sink for the Antaam to hone their skills as soldiers against in preparation for the next invasion. It reminds me of Eurasia/Eastasia and the Resistance in 1984.

Iron Bull was making a point that they flat out don't have succession crises under the Qun. Which seems to be true. (Who selects each Triumvir, though? I doubt Sten ran an election campaign.) Succession crises have caused untold strife in many different civilizations, and are often the motivation behind such quaint notions as 'divine blood' and the 'divine right of kings'. The Qun doesn't have that. They have constant break-away rebels, consistently in the military sector, and they seem content to kill them off. Many Qunari seem happy to go on living under the Qun, which seems content to stay as it has for centuries. That's what I meant about the self-sustaining and the power not being corrupted (that we know of) in regards to Solas. The Qun is totalitarian, collectivist, and frankly unsettling. But it also accomplishes what it says it sets out to do. It doesn't feel like the ideals of the Qunari 'revolution' have withered away. They've handled entropy of political purpose better than the Elvhen or even many of the human kingdoms, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.

Does any of that make sense? I'm trying to provide context to my original comment. 

[Siha]

Theory time!

The Solas romance follows the Heisenberg uncertainty principle: because everyone can see there's something there, but nobody knows where it's going or how fast it's moving.

Right! That's just what Schroedinger did not like about Heisenberg. All those weird emotional quantum jumps occurring out of nowhere. It's so much simpler with a box (everything is simpler with a box, no? Also much bigger on the inside.). And on basic principle, a cat is just a dog, too. Such a box allows to resolve the uncertainty in such an elegant way.... just make sure the wolf dragon god Warden magister empress ambassador demon cat is dead. (SONITH)
 

[Colonelkillabee]

I do believe the Qun would go on unchanged by the Triumvirate being wiped out. As in, the current Triumvirs being assassinated. They would simply get new Triumvirs and go on as before, albeit with improved security. The Tal-Vashoth that they fight in Seheron are themselves following the Demands of the Qun. If you leave the Qun, you are a savage bandit. The ones that really rock the boat just leave the whole jungle mess and give birth to the future Inquisitor. The presence of the Tal-Vashoth allows them an eternal boogeyman to blame failures on, an eternal hate sink for the Antaam to hone their skills as soldiers against in preparation for the next invasion. It reminds me of Eurasia/Eastasia and the Resistance in 1984.

Iron Bull was making a point that they flat out don't have succession crises under the Qun. Which seems to be true. (Who selects each Triumvir, though? I doubt Sten ran an election campaign.) Succession crises have caused untold strife in many different civilizations, and are often the motivation behind such quaint notions as 'divine blood' and the 'divine right of kings'. The Qun doesn't have that. They have constant break-away rebels, consistently in the military sector, and they seem content to kill them off. Many Qunari seem happy to go on living under the Qun, which seems content to stay as it has for centuries. That's what I meant about the self-sustaining and the power not being corrupted (that we know of) in regards to Solas. The Qun is totalitarian, collectivist, and frankly unsettling. But it also accomplishes what it says it sets out to do. It doesn't feel like the ideals of the Qunari 'revolution' have withered away. They've handled entropy of political purpose better than the Elvhen or even many of the human kingdoms, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.

Does any of that make sense? I'm trying to provide context to my original comment. 

 

Good example of the Qunari mindset is the mage Qunari in DA 2. He had freedom and he chose to die rather than go on living in violation of the Qun. Whether they actually like the Qun or not, many are thoroughly brainwashed. Iron Bull willingly went back to the re-educators.

 

They're like children, really. They need to be guided, they need rules and regulations. Kids run away sometimes, but many come back or wish they had later. I bet the majority of them fear what their society would be without it. Even though lol, society's not exactly stellar right now, but it sure could be worse, which Bull hinted to. I'd rather see a nation of Qunari chaining themselves rather than seeing them without their self imposed leash. I guess a lot of them would too or they'd never last this long with such a hardcore system.

[Illyria]

No, I mean.. I remember the whole quest in-game with the messenger and the whole.. Implication thing, that is a **** move on her part. But.. Did she do something like that in the books? because It seems stupid-villain-tropey to send useful messengers to drop points.. to just be killed, for no apparent reason?

 

I just got the gist of her banging Celene for political power, even though Celene wiped out a Alienage. 

 

Edit top of page. - http://drathe.tumblr...iggin-fits-that

Spoiler

  

 

Sorry if this has been answered already.

 

No, Bria wasn't sleeping with Celene for power.  They'd been together since they were teenagers and Briala was devoted to Celene and dedicated herself to getting Celene made Empress.  She did use her connection to the throne to have life made better for the elves.  The plot of The Masked Empire has an elven revolt in Halamshiral which Briala tries to end without a purge of the elves by assassinating the noble who caused the revolt.  Celene is fine with this but when Bria is away Gaspard starts spreading rumours that Celene is sleeping with elves and that's why she's so soft on them.  So in order to counter this Celene purges the elves of Halamshiral (killing 3000 people) and has Bria arrested.

 

Celene is also responsible for the deaths of Briala's parents who were killed as part of a phoney assassination attempt on Celene when she was 16.

 

Briala is probably one of my favourite DA characters, even if I'm not fond of the way she came across in DAI.

 

 

EDIT: I wasn't fond of the 'get the two back together ending' of Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts until I did it (figured that my Lavellan wouldn't know everything I know) and the two seem really willing try and make the relationship work again and Bria is going into it with all the facts this time.  Plus, it's on a much more equal footing than it was before.

[Colonelkillabee]

Good example of the Qunari mindset is the mage Qunari in DA 2. He had freedom and he chose to die rather than go on living in violation of the Qun. Whether they actually like the Qun or not, many are thoroughly brainwashed. Iron Bull willingly went back to the re-educators.

 

They're like children, really. They need to be guided, they need rules and regulations. Kids run away sometimes, but many come back or wish they had later. I bet the majority of them fear what their society would be without it. Even though lol, society's not exactly stellar right now, but it sure could be worse, which Bull hinted to. I'd rather see a nation of Qunari chaining themselves rather than seeing them without their self imposed leash. I guess a lot of them would too or they'd never last this long with such a hardcore system.

This reminds me of the images of Qunari slaves in the elven ruins. If I let my dog outside right now and shut the door, he'd eventually come back, if he ran far at all, and sit at that door until I opened it. If Qunari were elven slaves, they'd be getting bred like animals for a very long time now. This way of life may work for them so well because they were bred for it. That culture and way of life even if they forgot the origins still survives even today. Slavery to a purpose, that's all many of them know or have known for a long long time.

[Caddius]

This reminds me of the images of Qunari slaves in the elven ruins. If I let my dog outside right now and shut the door, he'd eventually come back, if he ran far at all, and sit at that door until I opened it. If Qunari were elven slaves, they'd be getting bred like animals for a very long time now. This way of life may work for them so well because they were bred for it. That culture and way of life even if they forgot the origins still survives even today. Slavery to a purpose, that's all many of them know or have known for a long long time.

I'm growing increasingly fond of the theories about the Creators ruling over both Thedas and lands beyond, like the home continent of the kossith. Some of the imagery of the Creators, like Flemythal's hair horns, even reminds me of the Qunari. (Though that could just be a shared draconic connection.)

[Colonelkillabee]

I'm growing increasingly fond of the theories about the Creators ruling over both Thedas and lands beyond, like the home continent of the kossith. Some of the imagery of the Creators, like Flemythal's hair horns, even reminds me of the Qunari. (Though that could just be a shared draconic connection.)

Creators or whoever, yea. I mean, it's not like they can't just fly over to other lands after all, so why not?

[flabbadence]

I think the reason why Qunari, even the rebels, adhere to the Qun so rigidly is because, like mages, they were raised to fear themselves. They're indoctrinated to fear madness, chaos, magic, demons, Tal-Vashoth, and their supposedly barbaric roots as kossith. Their indoctrination's just a lot more thorough than with the mages thanks to the Tamassrans, and that's why we don't hear about mass rebellions, only Tal Vashoth stragglers.

[Caddius]

Creators or whoever, yea. I mean, it's not like they can't just fly over to other lands after all, so why not?

I have this image of Morrigan testing out Eluvians to find a hiding spot in the Crossroads. Stepping out of one, she's in the middle of a kossith citadel. Cue Indiana Jones style scene of her running to Kieran and screaming for him to fire up the Eluvian tied to the Hero of Ferelden's back. 

[flabbadence]

Okay, here is my confusion on demons teaching blood magic. Dreamers are the most susceptible to demons, but according to Solas, he does not use blood magic because it makes it harder to slip into the fade. So, why would they teach it to them in the first place?

 

This has been bugging me as well. How can demons know about blood magic, if blood magic's supposed to be the mage drawing from their life force, not the Fade? Supposedly, Tevinters first learned about blood magic either through the Old God whispering in their dreams, or captured ancient elves. But if the Old Gods are from the Fade, then again, how can they know about blood magic? How can ancient elves know about blood magic, when it's so counterintuitive to what we know about ancient elven magic, which was as natural as breathing?

[Colonelkillabee]

I have this image of Morrigan testing out Eluvians to find a hiding spot in the Crossroads. Stepping out of one, she's in the middle of a kossith citadel. Cue Indiana Jones style scene of her running to Kieran and screaming for him to fire up the Eluvian tied to the Hero of Ferelden's back. 

Lol not me My Hero of Ferelden is a dead beat dad.

 

Will send ya a post card from earth to never never land.

[Caddius]

This has been bugging me as well. How can demons know about blood magic, if blood magic's supposed to be the mage drawing from their life force, not the Fade? Supposedly, Tevinters first learned about blood magic either through the Old God whispering in their dreams, or captured ancient elves. But if the Old Gods are from the Fade, then again, how can they know about blood magic? How can ancient elves know about blood magic, when it's so counterintuitive to what we know about ancient elven magic, which was as natural as breathing?

Maybe one of the Creators/Forgotten Ones turned to Blood Magic as a way of gaining an edge on those higher up in the hierarchy?

But yeah. Demons teaching it is weird. Old Gods teaching it is weird.

[Eomie]

This has been bugging me as well. How can demons know about blood magic, if blood magic's supposed to be the mage drawing from their life force, not the Fade? Supposedly, Tevinters first learned about blood magic either through the Old God whispering in their dreams, or captured ancient elves. But if the Old Gods are from the Fade, then again, how can they know about blood magic? How can ancient elves know about blood magic, when it's so counterintuitive to what we know about ancient elven magic, which was as natural as breathing?

I am glad I am not the only one, but I will say this. I do not believe the veil is a physical thing. It is something of the mind, and I think is was created with the use of blood magic......So, maybe there could be a connection, but I doubt it. Also it very well could be that the ancient elves just stumble upon blood magic, and the vints learned it from slaves.