153431 réponses à ce sujet

[Sable Rhapsody]

@Sable - I totally see this....in a way. But dammit! I had a mod to "fix" that situation (*paarthurnax dilemma ftw*). Here, have a haughty Maggie. Cuz I likes.

 

I had that mod too.  Stupid Blades.  For my Dragonborn, Paarthurnax was almost a parental figure after she'd been totally cast adrift.  He set her on a redemption arc; she was a pretty sketchy person before she wound up a prisoner in Skyrim.  

 

 

Agree to some extent, but also can't help remembering his disapproval when my Lavellan responded to the idea of abandoning Haven with "I'll sacrifice myself if it will help you all get away" (paraphrasing).

 

This would have been so much easier if I could have hated him.

 

My Inquisitor was all like "We need to find out more about Coryflora" and then proceeded to pump him for information even as he was trying to choke the life out of her.  They don't show the scene, but I imagine that quizzy has to tell everyone else what happened after they ran, and Solas was more than a little impressed.  And possibly turned on 

[flabbadence]

Why would you separate what makes a person them though? Fen'harel's experiences are his. Solas' experiences are his. It's like two rivers conjoining as one. Two timelines connected. They aren't Fen'harel's experiences and Solas'. They become Solas' experiences. If you can't separate the god from the elf, then they are one and the same. Solas is Fen'harel.

 

I think a lot of people (well ok me too) are resistant to the idea because having Solas and Fen'Harel be originally separate entities brings up the possibility of Bioware forcing us to choose between either of them in the future. And you're right, Solas is Fen'Harel. So how could we choose?

[Maria13]

I think his disapproval there was because you were the only who could close the rifts and were likely the only one who would be able to stop Corypheus. So sacrificing yourself just so other people could get away seemed like a bad choice. I think if he had his way he would have sacrificed everyone in Haven if it meant saving the Inquisitor and made it more likely to defeat Cory and recover the orb.

 

This. Strategic disapproval. 

 

There is no point to sacrificing even a pawn if there is nothing whatsoever to gain by it.

[coldwetn0se]

I had that mod too.  Stupid Blades.  For my Dragonborn, Paarthurnax was almost a parental figure after she'd been totally cast adrift.  He set her on a redemption arc; she was a pretty sketchy person before she wound up a prisoner in Skyrim.  
 
 
 
My Inquisitor was all like "We need to find out more about Coryflora" and then proceeded to pump him for information even as he was trying to choke the life out of her.  They don't show the scene, but I imagine that quizzy has to tell everyone else what happened after they ran, and Solas was more than a little impressed.  And possibly turned on 

Like!

[Mims]

Why would you separate what makes a person them though? Fen'harel's experiences are his. Solas' experiences are his. It's like two rivers conjoining as one. Two timelines connected. They aren't Fen'harel's experiences and Solas'. They become Solas' experiences. If you can't separate the god from the elf, then they are one and the same. Solas is Fen'harel.

 

It doesn't change the fact that, at one point, the rivers were separate. They can't ever be one singular entity throughout time, unless one died in the process of creating the other. [IE; In the theory that Fen'Harel is puppeting dead Felassan, we're still only getting one personality.] 

 

If Solas is Solas+Fen'Harel, even if he sees Fen'Harel's memories as his own, feels everything from that moment, the mistakes aren't his. He wasn't ever apart of that instance. The question will always remain. He will always be an 'innocent' attached to a larger entity. 

 

Which is not to say that there isn't a place for that sort of character story. Jadzia Dax, for instance, has a similar character story and she's wonderful. But it does absolutely change the perception of who Solas and Fen'Harel are and where they are going. 

[Colonelkillabee]

I think a lot of people (well ok me too) are resistant to the idea because having Solas and Fen'Harel be originally separate entities brings up the possibility of Bioware forcing us to choose between either of them in the future. And you're right, Solas is Fen'Harel. So how could we choose?

What do you mean choose, like decide on which side to reinforce in him?

 

That's because people are thinking as his dark wolf side as "Fen'harel" and the light wolf side as "Solas", when they should be thinking of both of these aspects as two sides of Solas. It's also faulty to assume "Fen'harel" was a one sided individual.

 

I still think of Flemeth as Flemeth even now. Flemeth wouldn't be the same if Mythal hadn't bonded with her.

[Colonelkillabee]

It doesn't change the fact that, at one point, the rivers were separate. They can't ever be one singular entity throughout time, unless one died in the process of creating the other. [IE; In the theory that Fen'Harel is puppeting dead Felassan, we're still only getting one personality.] 

 

If Solas is Solas+Fen'Harel, even if he sees Fen'Harel's memories as his own, feels everything from that moment, the mistakes aren't his. He wasn't ever apart of that instance. The question will always remain. He will always be an 'innocent' attached to a larger entity. 

 

Which is not to say that there isn't a place for that sort of character story. Jadzia Dax, for instance, has a similar character story and she's wonderful. But it does absolutely change the perception of who Solas and Fen'Harel are and where they are going. 

 

 

Then think of it as one line ------------------- starting behind another ------------------- and the back line catches up and connects..

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Now it is one, and if I didn't bold it, you couldn't tell the difference. As far as I'm concerned, both the elf and original fen'harel are dead. And there is only Solas.

[Taelaa]

He disapproves because you - the only person with the mark - possibly the most important asset to the Inquisition and dealing with Corypheus is - without ANY thought - going to kill themselves.  He disapproves with a hated Inquisitor as well.  You are making a rash decision based on emotions without thinking.  When you ask 'we need to figure out what he wants' he approves because that's correct. If you need to kill yourself AFTER you find out more about him, he would likely approve.

 

 

I think his disapproval there was because you were the only who could close the rifts and were likely the only one who would be able to stop Corypheus. So sacrificing yourself just so other people could get away seemed like a bad choice. I think if he had his way he would have sacrificed everyone in Haven if it meant saving the Inquisitor and made it more likely to defeat Cory and recover the orb.

 

 

I had that mod too.  Stupid Blades.  For my Dragonborn, Paarthurnax was almost a parental figure after she'd been totally cast adrift.  He set her on a redemption arc; she was a pretty sketchy person before she wound up a prisoner in Skyrim.  

 

 

 

My Inquisitor was all like "We need to find out more about Coryflora" and then proceeded to pump him for information even as he was trying to choke the life out of her.  They don't show the scene, but I imagine that quizzy has to tell everyone else what happened after they ran, and Solas was more than a little impressed.  And possibly turned on 

 

Of course you're all correct. Sorry, my brain is fuzzy today!

[Siha]

Why would you separate what makes a person them though? Fen'harel's experiences are his. Solas' experiences are his. It's like two rivers conjoining as one. Two timelines connected. They aren't Fen'harel's experiences and Solas'. They become Solas' experiences. If you can't separate the god from the elf, then they are one and the same. Solas is Fen'harel.

Ahhhhhhh! Time... warp... can't... escape...

Solas is Fen'harel, there has never been and will never be anything ordinary in him. Whenever he speaks about being born or growing up or being a dreamer or an elf or referring to the elven gods as "they" he's simply lying. The world is black and white. Now follow the KISS principle and finally shut up about it!  

[flabbadence]

What do you mean choose, like decide on which side to reinforce in him?

 

That's because people are thinking as his dark wolf side as "Fen'harel" and the light wolf side as "Solas", when they should be thinking of both of these aspects as two sides of Solas. It's also faulty to assume "Fen'harel" was a one sided individual.

 

I still think of Flemeth as Flemeth even now. Flemeth wouldn't be the same if Mythal hadn't bonded with her.

 

Like Anders style separate him from Justice I think.

 

And I'm not saying Fen'Harel's bad and Solas's good. If anything, if they actually were once separate and I was forced to choose, I'd probably pick Fen'Harel because he's much more interesting. But he still wouldn't be the Solas I got to know.

 

Though while writing this, I think even if Solas and Fen'Harel were separate once, I don't think it's possible to separate them again. Take Anders. Even when you're on his rival path, and it looks like Anders wants to get rid of Justice, they still can't separate. It might be different with a god's soul, but if both Solas and Fen'Harel are willing parties to their binding, I don't think there's any way to force them apart if they don't want to.

[nikki-tikki]

**I think my gif spam is my form of civil disobedience, against the limited "like" system, on this forum. **

 

I gif spam so much. Gifs are the best.

[Mims]

Then think of it as one line ------------------- starting behind another ------------------- and the back line catches up and connects..

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Now it is one, and if I didn't bold it, you couldn't tell the difference. As far as I'm concerned, both the elf and original fen'harel are dead. And there is only Solas.

 

I get what you mean! But, it doesn't change the fact that there are two entities, even if the Solas we see now is made up of both and wouldn't exist without either. Flemeth may say that Mythal and her are as close as a body and a heart- but she's still able to remove the part of herself that is only Mythal and give it to Fen'Harel.

 

Can we really say what the original Flemeth would have wanted? She traded her life and her soul away for revenge. Possibly the souls of her own daughters down through the ages. 

 

There's always going to be a big difference between Solas just being Fen'Harel and being a combination between the two. I prefer the simpler answer, but I wouldn't be that bothered if its the latter. But I do not see the two as being analogous. They are two very different story situations. 

[Mariposa Diurna]

I don't see a difference between Solas and Fen'Harel either. But I do see a difference between the real Fen'Harel and the Dread Wolf of lore.

 

From what I imagine, the Solas who joined the Inquisition is old, tired and still weak from a very long slumber. He needs to do many things, correct mistakes, make what was broken whole again. He found that he couldn't do it and he realized there was someone who could help him. So he allowed Cory to find the orb and get to know some of its power (not all, never all!). Solas knew that, ultimately, the orb was tied to his own power and that Cory never could have commanded it entirely. It was a gamble but one that Solas likely would have won (think of the chess game, he's willing to sacrifice a lot to win in the most unlikely ways). Only things happened, the Quizzie happened and now part of Solas' power belongs to Lavellan and he stays close both because he doesn't want Cory to win and because he doesn't control the pieces anymore. He's sceptical. And then he's drawn to Lavellan, despite his every attempt not to fall for her.

 

In the end, he leaves her. It can't happen, he has things to do that go beyond her own goals and maybe contrary to them. He cannot stay much longer for fear of being swayed by her. But he has not betrayed her (yet) and he has done what he could in this weakened form of his.

 

 

Flemeth may say that Mythal and her are as close as a body and a heart- but she's still able to remove the part of herself that is only Mythal and give it to Fen'Harel.

 

Do we really know that? I mean, maybe that was the deal. Mythal gets to use Flemeth's body but Flemeth's original soul passed on a long time ago. It's not like is still alive after Mythal left.

[Janic99]

Woooh got younger Solas haircut now ^^

MY FRIEND

[Rav]

MY FRIEND

MA LAVELLAN

[Colonelkillabee]

I get what you mean! But, it doesn't change the fact that there are two entities, even if the Solas we see now is made up of both and wouldn't exist without either. Flemeth may say that Mythal and her are as close as a body and a heart- but she's still able to remove the part of herself that is only Mythal and give it to Fen'Harel.

 

Can we really say what the original Flemeth would have wanted? She traded her life and her soul away for revenge. Possibly the souls of her own daughters down through the ages. 

 

There's always going to be a big difference between Solas just being Fen'Harel and being a combination between the two. I prefer the simpler answer, but I wouldn't be that bothered if its the latter. But I do not see the two as being analogous. They are two very different story situations. 

I see the point, I just don't see why any of that matters when the man you fell in love with is this guy currently.

 

I'm a much much different person than I was five years ago, and if people saw me then they might not like me as much or at all. I certainly get the objections, tussling with the idea of it and trying to figure out who is Solas. The concept makes him feel less real.

 

But then, he is a god. Did you all really expect a relationship with such a being to be anything less than complicated?

 

Of course I know you all know that. Rhetorical. Lol, it also wasn't exactly your choice, but it's something to think about anyway. Even if Solas was always Fen'harel, the two personas, him then and him now, will be so different that they may as well be two different people. And I can imagine if he is a villain, that he'll be in conflict with that regularly.

 

 

Like Anders style separate him from Justice I think.

 

And I'm not saying Fen'Harel's bad and Solas's good. If anything, if they actually were once separate and I was forced to choose, I'd probably pick Fen'Harel because he's much more interesting. But he still wouldn't be the Solas I got to know.

 

Though while writing this, I think even if Solas and Fen'Harel were separate once, I don't think it's possible to separate them again. Take Anders. Even when you're on his rival path, and it looks like Anders wants to get rid of Justice, they still can't separate. It might be different with a god's soul, but if both Solas and Fen'Harel are willing parties to their binding, I don't think there's any way to force them apart if they don't want to.

I don't think they can be either. Not without someone dying, like in the case of the archdemon, and even then the souls here are what is linked. It's a lot different than what we've seen before, if true.

[Siha]

Woooh got younger Solas haircut now ^^

 

Pics or it didn't happen!

[Mims]

I see the point, I just don't see why any of that matters when the man you fell in love with is this guy currently.

 

 

For Lavellan, it probably doesn't matter. From someone looking at the character from an outside perspective, it does. I don't doubt that if Solas is a combination of the two that they can't be realistically separated, nor would you want to. But it does change how one would talk about and relate to the character. Did the change in Fen'Harel happen organically, or as a result of a soulmerge? It changes the character arch, even if the results appear to be the same. 

[Colonelkillabee]

For Lavellan, it probably doesn't matter. From someone looking at the character from an outside perspective, it does. I don't doubt that if Solas is a combination of the two that they can't be realistically separated, nor would you want to. But it does change how one would talk about and relate to the character. Did the change in Fen'Harel happen organically, or as a result of a soulmerge? It changes the character arch, even if the results appear to be the same. 

And that's something we can all hope to get answers for later.

 

For me, I imagine this merging happening a long long time ago. I like to think that the gods were ethereal forms of some kind and got volunteers to give them shape. So Solas would have experienced all of the ruling and godding it up as Fen'harel in that form, not the "possession" stuff some others were saying.

 

That would allow him to organically change.

[BoscoBread]

Like Anders style separate him from Justice I think.

 

And I'm not saying Fen'Harel's bad and Solas's good. If anything, if they actually were once separate and I was forced to choose, I'd probably pick Fen'Harel because he's much more interesting. But he still wouldn't be the Solas I got to know.

 

Though while writing this, I think even if Solas and Fen'Harel were separate once, I don't think it's possible to separate them again. Take Anders. Even when you're on his rival path, and it looks like Anders wants to get rid of Justice, they still can't separate. It might be different with a god's soul, but if both Solas and Fen'Harel are willing parties to their binding, I don't think there's any way to force them apart if they don't want to.

AND This is where I have an issue with Fen'Harel posessed someone else because of what we know of Anders. Yes, Anders says "I don't know where I start and he begins".  That is true but at the same time there was a seperation there. He was able to block off Justice from parts of himself.  He was able to try to cling to the last shreds of what made him Anders because there was certainly intimation that Justice was changing who he was.  We've also seen how posession wreaks havoc on a person's mental state.  EVERYONE in the game that has been possessed is NUTS.  Even Mythal/Flemeth.  It is not natural and we have been told this in every single Dragon Age game.   

 

There was NEVER any point in time that I thought Solas was losing his marbles.  Solas comes off as way too confident. Way too calm and collected. We see him get angry a grand total of once and you're able to stop him from making a rash decision. 

[jellobell]

I'm glad they did it that way.  You can see - a little - how the Dread Wolf name possibly came about and I imagine we'll learn a lot more about his past to underscore that, but now he's just thoughtful, scrunchy-nosed Solas.  I'm happy they didn't go all creepy-slutty-Zeus route with him which seems to be the case with Gods befriends/loves mortals stories.

Same here. It just happened so...naturally. And Solas was so obviously aware of all of the monumental problems it could cause. But he just as obviously couldn't help himself. What I found most refreshing was that, for a so-called god, Solas is one of the most human and relatable characters that I've ever seen in a Bioware game.

 

SIDE NOTE: When you put it that way I feel my Lavellan would almost be a bit amused when the initial shock wears off because for her he was never "Dread".

Yep. It's hard to be afraid or in awe of someone who you've seen get completely sloshed at an Orlesian Ball. Or who scrunches up his nose whenever he's forced to drink tea. Or who gets flustered when you tease him about "Fade Tongue".   Solas just isn't a "god" to my Lavellan. And after she's had a bit of time to process, she's not going to be all that put off by the revelation.

 

As for the whole argument about possession, it just feels wrong for Solas to have been two separate beings. All of his opinions and experiences he shares with you are too coherent for that. Flemeth says that Mythal and herself are inseparable now, but they were very obviously two different people at one time. And Flemeth's personality is pretty distinctly her own. Solas, on the other hand, speaks of war and regret and alienation, and obviously experienced all of those things himself. When Cole talks to him about his past, he's always talking to Solas, not to some Solas/Fen'harel gestalt being, and Solas replies in kind. Then there's also the fact that Mythal's situation is unique. She was murdered, thus needing to find a host in the first place. I'm an Occam's Razor kind of person, and Solas being the real deal is actually the simplest explanation.

 

But anyways, sort of bringing it back to Disney and musical numbers, you guys should totally check out this amazing Solas-ified parody of Colours of the Wind because it is amazing.

[Siha]

If I had to merge my soul with that of another being, I'd make sure that the other soul resembles mine as closely as possible. I would not wish to merge with somebody who's very different from myself. So whatever Solas was before, I am convinced that he was the closest match that Fen'Harel was able to find. And the merge has happened many hundred years ago, at least, based on what Leliana finds out about Solas' birth place. I am sure there is no way to separate them anymore; tearing out Fen'Harels soul would kill Solas.

[Colonelkillabee]

I don't wanna be that guy, (I think I might be the only guy here actually, lol), but Anders could be foreshadowing for a lot of this stuff.

[Colonelkillabee]

If I had to merge my soul with that of another being, I'd make sure that the other soul resembles mine as closely as possible. I would not wish to merge with somebody who's very different from myself. So whatever Solas was before, I am convinced that he was the closest match that Fen'Harel was able to find. And the merge has happened many hundred years ago, at least, based on what Leliana finds out about Solas' birth place. I am sure there is no way to separate them anymore; tearing out Fen'Harels soul would kill Solas.

Yep, I imagine the bond would be unstable and detrimental otherwise. They had this concept in Stargate as well for Tok'ra.

[BoscoBread]

I don't wanna be that guy, (I think I might be the only guy here actually, lol), but Anders could be foreshadowing for a lot of this stuff.

Foreshadowing how the writers torpedo a perfectly good character?  Probably.  In all seriousness, I think in certain ways yes. Or he could be a nice mirror.  Solas actually walks away from the edge.