The only thing about the OGS not being malevolent is that we hear its thoughts in Darkspawn Chronicles, and they're not nice thoughts (like little jewels). But feel free to disregard that awful DLC entirely.
I keep seeing hate for Darkspwan Chronicles, but I thought it was fun. Why do people hate it?
I keep seeing hate for Darkspwan Chronicles, but I thought it was fun. Why do people hate it?
You can play as an Ogre and do Grab and have the Ogre punch Arl Howe in the face repeatedly.
What's not to like?
In Hitler's case, I think it's safe to say someone else would have taken his place. I think it was Himmler who was going to run for head of the Nazi party, but his wife talked him down in favor of Hitler. (Way to go, wifey.
)
But I was just throwing an example out of my hat. A better one would be an American who goes forward in time and doesn't have to worry about accidentally wiping himself out of existence. But it's a degraded, cyber-punk society run by corporations, and there's this crazy samurai guy delivering pizzas for the Mafia. Do you embrace the new civilization, or do you hold onto your own? Do you keep away from other people and try to maintain it, (Dalish) or do you destroy neighboring 'alien' cultures (Orlais.)? Or just plain take over? (Coryflora).
And one might assume Himmler would have been a lot worse even. And if not him somebody else would have been there. I do not want to say I believe in fate or predestination. But the time back then was one of xenophobia and persecution of Jews. It was not limited to Germany. I definitely know of early British support for the Nazi cause and I assume other countries were not too different. Only Germany was "most successful", and in Germany Hitler happened to gain ground. I assume a hundred different paths might have all lead to the same outcome. I consider it harmful to hang history up on a few people. It's so much easier to turn a blind eye and disregard the ubiquitous danger if you assume "It will never happen again". As soon as people start to believe that, usually it's the point when it will happen again. (I am getting off-topic here, no?)
And about the future... I have watched enough Doctor Who to know that fighting one system (hello Satellite 5!) might turn out even worse, no matter how evil it seems and how sure you are of doing good. Especially when you know nothing about the time and world. You might want to investigate first. Future or past, the same rules apply.
But I do agree with you about what people probably would do (instead of what they should do).
The Archdemon's thoughts were delivered in hissing, but there was text captions, if I remember correctly. They were largely instructions for 'kill this captain, and his soldiers will falter', 'Don't be a ******. Use the Shrieks to kill the artillery operators and sow discord, then bust the gate with the Ogre. End it quickly.' and 'OHSHIT OHSHIT OHSHIT GREY WARDENS EVERYONE COME TO ME GREY WARDENS OH NOES I KNOW WHAT HAPPENS NEXT OH NO!' I only played it the once.
I was real proud of how many times Sten killed me in the boss fight.
Sounds pretty much just like a good field marshal to me. (Except for the whining bit.)
Sten was the boss fight boss?
(And I start to see a pattern in your admiration!)
And one might assume Himmler would have been a lot worse even. And if not him somebody else would have been there. I do not want to say I believe in fate or predestination. But the time back then was one of xenophobia and persecution of Jews. It was not limited to Germany. I definitely know of early British support for the Nazi cause and I assume other countries were not too different. Only Germany was "most successful", and in Germany Hitler happened to gain ground. I assume a hundred different paths might have all lead to the same outcome. I consider it harmful to hang history up on a few people. It's so much easier to turn a blind eye and disregard the ubiquitous danger if you assume "It will never happen again". As soon as people start to believe that, usually it's the point when it will happen again. (I am getting off-topic here, no?)
And about the future... I have watched enough Doctor Who to know that fighting one system (hello Satellite 5!) might turn out even worse, no matter how evil it seems and how sure you are of doing good. Especially when you know nothing about the time and world. You might want to investigate first. Future or past, the same rules apply.
But I do agree with you about what people probably would do (instead of what they should do).
I don't think it's so much believing in fate or predestination, as in rejecting the 'Great Men' interpretation of history. 
Systems set up by previous generations have flaws that upset people in the current generation. Someone steps up to fix them. If they were dead, someone else would have done it, because the flaws were still there.
Germany was still in the grips of the Great Depression and the 'stab-in-the-back' view of things was quite enticing for many.
And yeah, Himmler or Reynard would have been even scarier as leaders of Nazi Germany, as Hitler, despite the occasional stroke of brilliance, made a lot of mistakes that made the war end quicker.
Those were some of my favorite episodes of the Ninth Doctor. 
Well that was disturbing
Sounds pretty much just like a good field marshal to me. (Except for the whining bit.)
Sten was the boss fight boss?
(And I start to see a pattern in your admiration!)
And what pattern is that? 
In Urthie's defense, the final boss fight of Alistair, Barkspawn the Mabari, Leliana, and Morrigan is hard. Not that you can't take them with your darkspawn squad and constant reinforcements. It's that the party hits Urthie so hard and so fast that by the time I could run up to them he was at 40 percent health.
You face numerous companions as boss fights. Wynne is with Greagoir and Cullen and a squad of Templars, for example. Oghren stumbles out of the tavern with other angry drunks.
Sten is a Reaver (a lot less weird now that we have all these hints about the Qunari and dragons. ) who commands a force of dwarves and golems. For me, at least, it was the one hard fight in the DLC. Sten was the last to fall. 
When I got the mission from Urthie to 'Slaughter the civilians to weaken the soldiers' morale' I was like, ' 
'.
Then Vaughan and Goldanna ran across the screen... 
I don't think it's so much believing in fate or predestination, as in rejecting the 'Great Men' interpretation of history.
Systems set up by previous generations have flaws that upset people in the current generation. Someone steps up to fix them. If they were dead, someone else would have done it, because the flaws were still there.
Germany was still in the grips of the Great Depression and the 'stab-in-the-back' view of things was quite enticing for many.
And yeah, Himmler or Reynard would have been even scarier as leaders of Nazi Germany, as Hitler, despite the occasional stroke of brilliance, made a lot of mistakes that made the war end quicker.
Those were some of my favorite episodes of the Ninth Doctor.
It does make me wonder if they would have managed to whip up the frenzy to make the Nazi movement as big as Hitler did. Because that was the one ingenious thing that Hitler did, he was an excellent speaker with a mind for propaganda.
I never played this. I imagined it would feel like making everything I had fought for feel pointless. Stupid idea maybe but I did not deliberately want to destroy what I had build up myself.
So my question is not based on any fact or knowledge, but how were the thoughts delivered? Maybe it was the Darkspawn interpretation that was heard? You know, I want to get at that psychological communication theory. That while sender A has a particular meaning in mind, receiver B will understand something very different, though both operate on the same message. Maybe the Darkspawn (
interpreted the OGS thoughts in a fashion natural to them, understanding them as evil, while actually only distorting the meaning based on their own bias. (Do my words make any sense?)
I am not sure how much we should rely on information from such a DLC.
I like to think like this, too. I imagine the dragon blood corrupted with Blight (Archdemon) as the only prison which can hold an OGS. In order to be freed, the Archdemon must die - although the blood-prison, since linked with darkspawn, is not broken unless there is a Warden nearby who has chosen to let the OGS into their own bodies.
Also, I like to imagine the "Calling" is not entirely born out of malice. The condition of a Warden is always degrading, like a cancer, eventually driving them insane before they die. The Calling may be both an attempt by the OGS (since it can hear them) to give the Warden a "good" death, while also attempting to bring the Warden to its location so that the OGS may be freed. (Although, since there are hoards of darkspawn everywhere underground, it is unlikely the Warden will ever reach it). Were the Wardens in DAI hearing the Calling because the OGS was trying to rally the Wardens away from Corypheus and his demons?
Edit: As for where the OGS from the previously slain Archdemons are.... it certainly would be fun if there were another 4 gods walking around Thedas right now!
I like to think like this, too. I imagine the dragon blood corrupted with Blight (Archdemon) as the only prison which can hold an OGS. In order to be freed, the Archdemon must die - although the blood-prison, since linked with darkspawn, is not broken unless there is a Warden nearby who has chosen to let the OGS into their own bodies.
Also, I like to imagine the "Calling" is not entirely born out of malice. The condition of a Warden is always degrading, like a cancer, eventually driving them insane before they die. The Calling may be both an attempt by the OGS (since it can hear them) to give the Warden a "good" death, while also attempting to bring the Warden to its location so that the OGS may be freed. (Although, since there are hoards of darkspawn everywhere underground, it is unlikely the Warden will ever reach it). Were the Wardens in DAI hearing the Calling because the OGS was trying to rally the Wardens away from Corypheus and his demons?
Edit: As for where the OGS from the previously slain Archdemons are.... it certainly would be fun if there were another 4 gods walking around Thedas right now!
Hmmm... if archdemons aren't in fact Old Gods and are just their bodily prisons, then how were the Old Gods sealed into them?
Flemeth says a soul can't be forced upon the unwilling. I'm assuming that's true the other way around too: you can't force an unwilling soul to join with another. What then would be an Old God's incentive for entering a high dragon's body? It's even more puzzling if that high dragon's already blighted.
Or perhaps blight overrides consent through the song?
I like to think like this, too. I imagine the dragon blood corrupted with Blight (Archdemon) as the only prison which can hold an OGS. In order to be freed, the Archdemon must die - although the blood-prison, since linked with darkspawn, is not broken unless there is a Warden nearby who has chosen to let the OGS into their own bodies.
Also, I like to imagine the "Calling" is not entirely born out of malice. The condition of a Warden is always degrading, like a cancer, eventually driving them insane before they die. The Calling may be both an attempt by the OGS (since it can hear them) to give the Warden a "good" death, while also attempting to bring the Warden to its location so that the OGS may be freed. (Although, since there are hoards of darkspawn everywhere underground, it is unlikely the Warden will ever reach it). Were the Wardens in DAI hearing the Calling because the OGS was trying to rally the Wardens away from Corypheus and his demons?
Edit: As for where the OGS from the previously slain Archdemons are.... it certainly would be fun if there were another 4 gods walking around Thedas right now!
The Wardens were hearing the Calling early en masse because the one thing Wardens fear above everything else is the Calling, and Nightmare was able to tap into that to wreak havoc on them.
I think it's more that the Taint has advanced within them to the point that they start to become full on hybridized darkspawn. As seen in The Calling, they resemble darkspawn in appearance but with some minor alterations. So they basically 'evolve' to the point where they can tune into the Old God's radio channel like the rest of the darkspawn do. I don't think the Old God really cares for the difference between Wardens and darkspawn, it just knows that it can manipulate these tainted creatures to break open its cage.
Question: Why do the darkspawn hear the Old God's Song in the first place? The Old Gods are supposedly not tainted until the darkspawn interact with them while opening the cage, possibly by using blood to open the prison. Is it, perhaps, because they were sealed in the first place due to being powerful beings exposed to the Blight?
Say, seven gods sealed away by Fen'harel until such a time as he could find a cure for the Blight? (Or just, y'know, leave them there.)
And they're tapping into the TaintXM Station to call for help, from all the darkspawn buggers the Magisters seem to have unleashed.
I think the previous OGS's were slain. Since they were forced into a Grey Warden's body, and that Grey Warden didn't consent to that entry, they're both obliterated.
And Last Flight has reminded me there are in fact ways to override consent: blood magic. So if the Blight is also blood magic, then it can also override consent. The reason it doesn't work with a Grey Warden is they took in a small dose first, so they're sort of vaccinated against it for a time, so while they're blighted, it's not completely, and they're able to retain their wills until the Calling gets too loud
Question: Why do the darkspawn hear the Old God's Song in the first place? The Old Gods are supposedly not tainted until the darkspawn interact with them while opening the cage, possibly by using blood to open the prison. Is it, perhaps, because they were sealed in the first place due to being powerful beings exposed to the Blight?
I've been thinking about this a while ago. If the OGs are not tainted, they cannot access the Taint Hive Mind and order Darkspawn around. Which'd mean that the song Darkspawn hear while searching for the OGs is different from the song produced by the Taint. But why would they hear it, then? Because of the Taint? Maybe the Taint makes them misinterpret an untainted OGs song and taint him instead of staying away?Or maybe the OGs are already tainted, and Darkspawn just wake them up and break them out of their prisons....Wardens. Western Approach. They did hear the Song of an Archdemon... but why would they call him an Archdemon if he wasn't tainted yet? Why could they hear the song if he wasn't tainted? Ugh, I don't know
They're Wardens, they use the wrong words for everything.
But they refer to the Song being almost physical, and I'm utterly devoted to my theory that they used Wardens on their Calling to triangulate the locations of the sleeping Old Gods. So I think it's safe to say that even untainted Old Gods emit the Song. But once they're uncovered by darkspawn, it becomes tainted. The Architect talks about this in The Calling, about the irony of forever searching for that perfect sound, but when they get close to it, just wanting something beautiful, they twist it with their own corruption. The Archdemon's Song is similar, but it's diseased. It could be different sources, it could just be corrupted.
I'm a fan of at least one or two gods getting whammied with the Ritual. Perhaps Dumat, because the Mythal theories are so tantalizing. Perhaps not. I enjoy all of the speculation.
No way!!! ahahahah oh gosh I am so stupid.. I didn't realize that!! I did infact sentence her to wear the jesters outfit!That's Florianne!
You have a fantastic taste in games and we have quite a bit in common. This list is nearly perfect for me. I spent a good chunk of my life before DA:I playing Crusader Kings II. I can't recommend it enough though I feel as if I haven't put in the time I wish into it. Knights of the Old Republic is another one I'd like to replay. The nostalgia is strong in this one. I'm also playing the Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition and it's pretty cool. It runs a lot better I think that when I tried to work it out with an older BG copy I had.
Emerald Graves is still my favorite map in Inquisition I think. I never know when I'm gonna wrestle with a bear or play with twin giants. lol
Has anyone played Fallen Enchantress? I really loved that game... One of the few strategy games I could get on with. I used to love the Spellforce games too... Though the voice acting was... Naff... To put it kindly.
I cringed when Urthemiel instructs to burn the vhenadahl in the alienage. Honestly, dude. Arlathan was bad enough, y'have to burn their little tree too?
As for why darkspawn hear the Old Gods' song: I think, if they're the Forgotten Ones in dragon form, that could explain it. The Forgotten Ones lived in the Void, where the Blight appears to originate. The Forgotten Ones may have had control over the Blight, and that "spell" is their song. I've wondered if the Blight might operate similar to the geas in the Well of Sorrows. Just a whole lot nastier.
Fen'Harel sealed the Forgotten Ones in the abyss, and the Old Gods are stuck in stasis (forced uthenera?), deep in the earth. But then they "found the dreams again", and duped the Tevinters into worshipping them. They got revenge on what was left of the kingdom of their enemies by instructing Tevinter to crush Arlathan when the time was right. This also meant there was no one left who would remember what they really were, making it more difficult to stop them. Then the Old Gods tricked the magisters into unlocking the Black City and unleashing the Blight. This resulted in the creation of a new horde of their servants, dedicated to finding and freeing them from their prisons.
I think the original idea was that with the Forgotten Ones locked into uthenera, and the Blight locked in the Black City, the world should have been safe from that. Fen'Harel and his pals probably thought "what's the worst that could happen now?" Well... It also makes me think of Felassan's little comment about humans upsetting the balance of the world. Imagine having done something unspeakably incredible to change the world, only for some gullible magisters to step in and undo everything you had worked for. Ouch.
First of all, I am out of likes. But I like all this. I feel the need to thank you all. I very much enjoy this sort of reflected discussion. (Just... don't tell a few of the others I said that, I have a reputation to lose here.)
Were the Wardens in DAI hearing the Calling because the OGS was trying to rally the Wardens away from Corypheus and his demons?
Edit: As for where the OGS from the previously slain Archdemons are.... it certainly would be fun if there were another 4 gods walking around Thedas right now!
I personally just cannot imagine the soul would die like that. But more than this I don't see how else they want to figure Kieran in. They cannot just make two games, one with and one without Kieran. But they cannot simply ignore Kieran either. (Well, they could, but that would not live up to BioWare's reputation for delivering good writing.) So the soul he harbored must become influential at some point. And they need a way to make the same thing happen for players who have no Kieran. I consider letting the OGS survive the slaying the "simplest" approach.
Hmmm... if archdemons aren't in fact Old Gods and are just their bodily prisons, then how were the Old Gods sealed into them?
I am fairly sure that is exactly what Morrigan tells us, that the archdemon is not the OG, but only has an OGS trapped inside. If madrar were here, she could explain. She knows all the facts related to this. This way, both sides are willing: the OG wants to be deliberated, find some host to leave and get back to the world. The Darkspawn (in that case a dragon) is a mindless beast controlled by the song and is willing to become that vessel. Hence, following the idea Sister Squish pointed out before, we have the same thing as with Flemeth. A willing soul is transferred to a willing body.
If the OGs are not tainted, they cannot access the Taint Hive Mind and order Darkspawn around. Which'd mean that the song Darkspawn hear while searching for the OGs is different from the song produced by the Taint. But why would they hear it, then? Because of the Taint? Maybe the Taint makes them misinterpret an untainted OGs song and taint him instead of staying away?
Why do the darkspawn hear the Old God's Song in the first place? The Old Gods are supposedly not tainted until the darkspawn interact with them while opening the cage, possibly by using blood to open the prison.
I could come up with a theory from cognitive science here but I will refrain from doing so because last time I tried flabbadance totally did not understand what I tried to say.
So I will only point out that we know nothing of "the song" or even "the taint" or "the blight". Maybe there is one universal song, a sort of wave that touches all things. But some are blocked from noticing it (strong mind and such) while others are vulnerable (tainted creatures). So they all react. If we go a step further and assume that the OG themselves emit the song, we have a sound source and the receivers (those with tainted blood, maybe also other gods etc.) approach it.
Let me compare it to our previous topic of Nazi Germany, maybe. Imagine Hitler had not been a racist himself, so what? All he needed to do is feed into the common racist mood (hive mind) at the time and use it to further his goals. I think the same could be true for the OGS. They might not be tainted themselves, but they emit a song that can influence (or create) the hive mind in order to gather their "army".
I think it is very hard to tell any relations and influences while not knowing what exactly the song or the taint are in the first place.
And what pattern is that?
You like the strong outlaw male, the underdog (good or evil does not matter because it's all only different shades of gray anyway) who fights against all the odds for whatever he believes in, preferably doing so with eloquent and sophisticated means, possibly commanding or manipulating others, and always with a big plan in mind. A plan that reaches beyond "We must slay archdemon so we be happy again".
Don't follow me here, Gif, you're not allowed!
(JK, STAY! FANGIRL AWAY AT MY SMUT!) 
I've headcanoned that Solas notices that she picks at her food, and tells Josephine to have the cooks make simpler dishes for her.
This is the sweetest headcanon evah!!
I'm sorry, I know this was some pages ago I'm catching up with the thread while working ahem
Also, I'm willing to bet on anything that the OGS does NOT die from a warden killing an Archdemon... Anything.
If I'm wrong, I'll shave my beard.
I cringed when Urthemiel instructs to burn the vhenadahl in the alienage. Honestly, dude. Arlathan was bad enough, y'have to burn their little tree too?
As for why darkspawn hear the Old Gods' song: I think, if they're the Forgotten Ones in dragon form, that could explain it. The Forgotten Ones lived in the Void, where the Blight appears to originate. The Forbidden Ones may have had control over the Blight, and that "spell" is their song. I've wondered if the Blight might operate similar to the geas in the Well of Sorrows. Just a whole lot nastier.
Fen'Harel sealed the Forgotten Ones in the abyss, and the Old Gods are stuck in stasis (forced uthenera?), deep in the earth. But then they "found the dreams again", and duped the Tevinters into worshipping them. They got revenge on what was left of the kingdom of their enemies by instructing Tevinter to crush Arlathan when the time was right. This also meant there was no one left who would remember what they really were, making it more difficult to stop them. Then the Old Gods tricked the magisters into unlocking the Black City and unleashing the Blight. This resulted in the creation of a new horde of their servants, dedicated to finding and freeing them from their prisons.
I think the original idea was that with the Forgotten Ones locked into uthenera, and the Blight locked in the Black City, the world should have been safe from that. Fen'Harel and his pals probably thought "what's the worst that could happen now?" Well...
It was said that the Creators were sealed in the heavens, and the Forgotten Ones in the earth. That part makes sense.
I do like the idea of an unknowing geas being put upon the Magisters. As Corypheus says in the Shrine of Dumat, "We accepted that power." Much like drinking of the Well, but without Abelas or Morrigan or Solas nearby to explain the whole binding yourself to an ancient god part.
Hence Corypheus acting as a lieutenant to the Blight during the day and afterward, when he was controlled directly by the power behind the Blight? (Can someone come up with a cool and ominous yet ambiguous nickname for this theory-crafting entity? ) He certainly doesn't seem to recollect those years. "A thousand years in darkness, confused, no more!" Or something to that effect.
The big problem with Creators=Old Gods that I can see is the Old Gods turning against Arlathan. It's possible they just needed power, and that they saw the humans as viable alternatives as Arlathan crumbled. But hmm...
I keep seeing hate for Darkspwan Chronicles, but I thought it was fun. Why do people hate it?
I thought it was completely idiotic, and based on the premise that all would be lost in Thedas without our Mary Sue Warden.
You like the strong outlaw
male, the underdog (good or evil does not matter because it's all only different shades of gray anyway) who fights against all the odds for whatever he believes in, preferably doing so with eloquent and sophisticated means, possibly commanding or manipulating others, and always with a big plan in mind. A plan that reaches beyond "We must slay archdemon so we be happy again".
Maaaaybe... 
Have I mentioned that Kelsier is one of my favorite characters from Mistborn?
And the Lord-Ruler is as well?
I've been thinking about this a while ago. If the OGs are not tainted, they cannot access the Taint Hive Mind and order Darkspawn around. Which'd mean that the song Darkspawn hear while searching for the OGs is different from the song produced by the Taint. But why would they hear it, then? Because of the Taint? Maybe the Taint makes them misinterpret an untainted OGs song and taint him instead of staying away?Or maybe the OGs are already tainted, and Darkspawn just wake them up and break them out of their prisons....Wardens. Western Approach. They did hear the Song of an Archdemon... but why would they call him an Archdemon if he wasn't tainted yet? Why could they hear the song if he wasn't tainted? Ugh, I don't know
I'm starting to think the old gods might've been already tainted.. They, including the wardens hear the song before they're awakened, we've never seen an archdemon before they're considered archdemons. The wardens may think the same since they just refer to them as archdemon, tainted or not. But then, they are idiots.
But the biggest piece of evidence for me is that the Architect was putting DARKSPAWN through these joining rituals right? And he attempted to do so to Urthemiel right?
Doesn't that suggest he was already tainted?
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