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[Zarro-Morningstar]

People also often forget that Anders did indeed help people before all of this went down and that was because he WANTED to help them. He had nothing to gain by helping them; save for a few coins or a gracious thanks. He isn't some monster that wanted to watch the world burn. He was a man who was pushed too far and felt as if he had no other options left.

 

Plus if you want to argue that Anders is a murderer, well, every single companion is a murderer in the sense of taking away human life. Hawke killed, Fenris killed, Isabela killed, Merrill killed, and Varric killed. So many of them killed and there were innocents that they had to have killed at some point. Even if it was on accident or not intentional.

[Avejajed]

You have redeemed yourself.

Wait, when did was I...unredeemed?

[Cecilia]

There's your mistake...usually Tumblr's arguments are filled of illogical fools who blindly defend someone without looking at both sides of the argument. Why do you think I don't have an account on that place?

 

My main argument for Anders is simply that he is still a man/human. Everyone of us have boundaries and when they are pushed, well, our species is always only one step away from becoming animals. Anders saw constant abuse such as rape, tranquility, discrimination, etc. He finally snapped when he realized that the world need a push for anything to change and DAI is the PERFECT example that sometimes force is needed for change. We all know that the Mages and Templars would had started fighting one another without Anders at some point, it was indeed inevitable and it probably would had been even worse since all that hate would had been bubbling up for even longer.

 

In short: Anders was a character used to remind us that men sometimes are pushed too far and snap/make horrible decisions. We are all humans and even though we will never be exposed to something like Anders was, well, we can at least think about what it would be like. We never know how we would truly react in a situation until we are in it. We may predict what we might act like, but we do not know.

 

As for why I let Anders live? I roleplay my characters as the way I made them so they do things that I may not agree with. My Hawke was romancing Anders and she was the type who was never going to give up on anyone. So when he betrayed her...it nearly broke her, but she knew that Anders had to fix what he did. Even though she does not expect their relationship to ever be back to what it was, because that was a lie and not even real. She wants Anders to move on and become a better man even if that means she is simply in his life as a force that helped him get through his hardships.

 

I'm fairly pro-Circle personally (I think I'd be Aequitarian/Chantry apologist) so I disagree with Anders' more radical viewpoints, but I think his character arc in DAII is really heart wrenching - he's not super extremist to begin with and it's only after seeing Elthinia refuse to step in despite Meredith's continued abuses that he starts to get pushed closer and closer to the edge. If Anders' manifesto and initial actions are any indication, I'd argue he's more of an example of how a moderate can be pushed into an extremist by his circumstances. Also Justice. The two of them have a fairly toxic relationship in which both end up bringing out the worst in each other (I think Solas would like Anders - or at least approve of the fact that Anders is really regretful of accidentally polluting Justice with his own failings as a human)

 

It's probably hypocritical because I heavily dislike Loghain, but all I want to do is scold Anders for a really really long time and then give him lots of hugs and feed him so he looks less emaciated and make him take a bubble bath and a long nap and play with kittens ;;

[Avejajed]

Revolutionaries always get a lot of people killed.

[Cecilia]

Revolutionaries always get a lot of people killed.

 

I suppose the question here is, even as someone who really really loves Anders, I think he overstepped the boundaries of acceptable damage. I think Anders really does realize this afterwards, but unjustifiable means result in unjustifiable ends, no matter how noble your intentions were to begin with - assassinating an entire Chantry of non-combatants without their prior knowledge is an act of terrorism and is never acceptable under any circumstances. We can definitely argue that Meredith and the templars took the first step towards unjust warfare, but I'm of the personal opinion that meeting escalation with escalation is never justified.

 

/Edit if he had decided to blow up a barracks full of templars, then I think we'd have more room for argument

[BoscoBread]

There's your mistake...usually Tumblr's arguments are filled of illogical fools who blindly defend someone without looking at both sides of the argument. Why do you think I don't have an account on that place?

 

My main argument for Anders is simply that he is still a man/human. Every one of us have boundaries and when they are pushed, well, our species is always only one step away from becoming animals. Anders saw constant abuse such as rape, tranquility, discrimination, etc. He finally snapped when he realized that the world needed a push for anything to change and DAI is the PERFECT example that sometimes force is needed for change.

 

We all know that the Mages and Templars would had started fighting one another without Anders at some point. It was indeed inevitable and it probably would had been even worse since all that hate would had been bubbling up for even longer.

 

In short: Anders was a character used to remind us that men sometimes are pushed too far and snap/make horrible decisions. We are all humans and even though we will never be exposed to something like Anders was, well, we can at least think about what it would be like. We never know how we would truly react in a situation until we are in it. We may predict what we might act like, but we do not know.

 

As for why I let Anders live? I roleplay my characters in the way I made them, so they do things that I may not agree with. My Hawke was romancing Anders and she was the type who was never going to give up on anyone. So when he betrayed her...it nearly broke her, but she knew that Anders had to fix what he did. Even though she does not expect their relationship to ever be back to what it was, because that was a lie and not even real. She wants Anders to move on and become a better man even if that means she is simply in his life as a force that helped him get through his hardships.

This is how I feel about Anders. Guilty of the crime of murdering Awakenings Anders - I don't care that he blew up the chantry. It made sense...blah blah tumblr argument blah. You make good points though zarro.  I killed Anders because...guh.  I let him live in another PT. I think where I romanced him.  My Lady Trev has that one I believe.

Spoiler

[Colonelkillabee]

snip

I'm familiar with his death theories just fine.

 

Actually a lot of our alcohol is a lot stronger than what they had available back in the day. Like Viking Mead for one. People think of it as this really strong stuff, but it's not.

 

And I highly doubt he would. My tolerance is pretty stiff. I am six foot four, and he was a good bit shorter than me. To be expected.

[faeofthefellwood]

This isn't relevant to the current discussion, but I almost forgot - I finally had a Solas dream the other night. I was a Gray Warden but for some reason I was a security guard at some private school?? Anyway, the school got attacked by Darkspawn and Iron Bull, Sera, Solas and I had to get students to an upper floor and deactivate the elevator, so we were stuck there. Solas was consulting with the ghosts of Wynne and Orsino for help (haha), and getting more and more frustrated with Orsino's advice. The students were complaining about being stuck and Sera was testy with them.

Odd, but amusing.

[Avejajed]

I suppose the question here is, even as someone who really really loves Anders, I think he overstepped the boundaries of acceptable damage. I think Anders really does realize this afterwards, but unjustifiable means result in unjustifiable ends, no matter how noble your intentions were to begin with - assassinating an entire Chantry of non-combatants without their prior knowledge is an act of terrorism and is never acceptable under any circumstances. We can definitely argue that Meredith and the templars took the first step towards unjust warfare, but I'm of the personal opinion that meeting escalation with escalation is never justified.

/Edit if he had decided to blow up a barracks full of templars, then I think we'd have more room for argument

The term "terrorism" has forever changed the way people see revolutionary acts.

[Avejajed]

This isn't relevant to the current discussion, but I almost forgot - I finally had a Solas dream the other night. I was a Gray Warden but for some reason I was a security guard at some private school?? Anyway, the school got attacked by Darkspawn and Iron Bull, Sera, Solas and I had to get students to an upper floor and deactivate the elevator, so we were stuck there. Solas was consulting with the ghosts of Wynne and Orsino for help (haha), and getting more and more frustrated with Orsino's advice. The students were complaining about being stuck and Sera was testy with them.

Odd, but amusing.

You win best dream because I could picture all of that.

[Vorathrad]

The DA novels are great.  Stolen Throne and The Calling give backstories to DAO and DAOA and help understand both Loghian and The Architect a lot more.  Asunder is Cole's entire backstory, The Masked Empire is both the best written and the most interesting of the books (and includes a lot of characters who appeared in DAI), and Last Flight is just amazing.  It has GRIFFONS!  And wonderful elven characters!  And griffons!  Just take a look at the Colonel's reaction whenever anyone mentions Crookytail or Garahel, if you want an idea of how great people find this book.

I know I risk being banned from the thread but... I confess I really, really love dragons but I'm not much interested in griffons

Still they all sound very good. I think I'll get me TME once my finances allow for self gifts. Thank you all for your advice!

[Caddius]

I usually see Anders as a soft revolutionary. He prefers to spend his time proving that mages can be good on their own rather than tearing down the Circle brick by brick. He heals the sick and poor without pay, and they seem to adore him for it. He was willing to just dodge the Circle.

Once Justice entered the picture, he set up Anders on a darker path. I think that if Anders was by inclination a terrorist, a 'hard' revolutionary, the Chantry explosion would have happened long ago.

While when I was younger, I thought he was trying to become a martyr for the cause by being so willing to accept Hawke executing him. But Anders isn't publicly blamed for the explosion. Meredith pins it on the Circle, and uses it as an excuse for an Annulment. Just as he planned. He's martyring the Circle in Kirkwall, to incite a Thedas-wide revolution, to prove in as bloody a fashion as possible just how tenuous mages' positions are in the world. No more debates, no more idealizing the Circles. And he hopes to die before he sees the world torn apart by his actions. Nowadays, I see it as Anders being driven by a personification of Justice and Vengeance to do something that crosses the line, and he hates himself for it. So he accepts death. If Hawke continues to accept him, he sees that other people also see the revolution as being worth the cost, and he's relieved.

One of the darker endings is Rivalry, Templar-aligned, where he comes to the conclusion that Justice really was a demon driving him, that he was an abomination the entire time. So he sides with Hawke to put down the mages and try to undo his mistake. It's implied that he backed out of making the bomb if Hawke questions him during the quest, and that Justice took over and he couldn't even remember doing it.

I definitely understand why people would hate Anders, or dismiss him as a terrorist. But I see him as a very nuanced character that's believably torn. Depending on player actions, he can either be the misguided terrorist that brought about years of chaos and misery with no triumph of the Mage Rebellion, or he's the man who did the ugly work to spark a horrifying revolution that nevertheless ended up with a better world for mages.

*shrug* Then again, I'm also a Loghain fan. So for some, that probably diminishes my moral viewpoints a bit. A comparison I could make would be that Loghain commits his controversial act, leaving the army at Ostagar, but he never apologizes for it. He sees it as necessary, and it hurt him to leave his men behind. Why should he apologize for what had to be done? But, while surviving that event and believing it was just, he struggled with everything that came as a result of that. Becoming regent, dealing with the other nobles, having Howe as the only ally available to him, selling elves to Tevinter, eventually realizing that he nearly brought doom upon his country.

Anders does not live with his controversial act so easily, and in many playthroughs, dies for it.

[Caddius]

I'm familiar with his death theories just fine.

 

Actually a lot of our alcohol is a lot stronger than what they had available back in the day. Like Viking Mead for one. People think of it as this really strong stuff, but it's not.

 

And I highly doubt he would. My tolerance is pretty stiff. I am six foot four, and he was a good bit shorter than me. To be expected.

That's only like, a foot-four inches on him...

Add in the known scientific fact that beards add to alcohol resistance, and I guess I have to concede you would out-drink an ancient Macedonian king. 

After doing a quick bit of Google-fu, turns out I got my essays on certain types of improvised alcohol in the Late Modern Age mixed up with the wine commonly drunk, which was watered down because its main use was to not get those nasty water-borne diseases rather than get drunk. The Greeks even considered getting drunk an 'unmanly display, lacking temperance'. 

Meanwhile, the Macedonians were renowned for being rowdy and drunk and looking down on teetotalers like me for being unmanly. 

[Rhoxi]

I....wha...to even compare the two on the same level..... 

 

*shrugs* It makes sense to me. Both open minded, liberal, educated, pro-mage, kind, passionate people who strongly believe in the right of all thinking individuals to be free.

 

Okay sure, plenty of differences too. In reality, Anders's depression, bi-polar disorder, and suicidal idealizations would have made me turn around and look for the exit door. Or just, not gotten involved in the first place. In the game, I found him to be such a compelling character that I decided to do something I wouldn't normally do, and pursue and romance with him--the friendmance route. (I usually play self-insert characters). The foreshadowing was so strong, I kinda figured it was going to be a tragic story and he was probably going to slaughter a whole mess of templars either in the fight for mage freedom or because of losing control to Justice. So I went into it with my eyes open, so to speak, because I figured it would be the best, most dramatic story that game had to offer. And, to me, it was! My Hawke totally stayed with Anders. When she showed up in DA:I and announced that she and Anders had continued to quest for mage freedom and had gone to the Circles after Kirkwall to help them take that final step and vote for freedom, I cheered SO. LOUD. At least, in my mind. I'm too quiet to do that IRL.

 

Now Solas? No role playing required. All self-insert love there. That logic; that rationality and intellect. And then you throw on a gorgeous accent? Woof!

 

Plus who knows? Solas may yet cause much more destruction in the pursuit of his goals than Anders ever did. I mean, if he locked up the elven gods--and they are the same as the Tevinter gods . . . isn't he kinda responsible, albeit accidentally, for the blight?  This is pure speculation. Of course. I'm not actually convinced that they are the same, but it is a popular theory.

[RogueBait]

No I know. A chastity belt, that's what. Because he's the fcking trickster god, of course.

Yeah, I needed to double post for that.

 

 

[Colonelkillabee]

That's only like, a foot-four inches on him...

Add in the known scientific fact that beards add to alcohol resistance, and I guess I have to concede you would out-drink an ancient Macedonian king. 

 

After doing a quick bit of Google-fu, turns out I got my essays on certain types of improvised alcohol in the Late Modern Age mixed up with the wine commonly drunk, which was watered down because its main use was to not get those nasty water-borne diseases rather than get drunk. The Greeks even considered getting drunk an 'unmanly display, lacking temperance'. 

Meanwhile, the Macedonians were renowned for being rowdy and drunk and looking down on teetotalers like me for being unmanly. 

I am the Colonel. If I didn't know at least a little about alcohol, and I couldn't handle it myself, it wouldn't be me, right?

 

And that last part, that's what makes it so hilarious, lol. And why even if it's not true, I wouldn't put it past them to say Alexander was poisoned or died from some other occurrence, if he really wasn't. It would be incredibly embarrassing otherwise for the legendary Alexander.

[Cecilia]

The term "terrorism" has forever changed the way people see revolutionary acts.

 

I'm afraid I simply believe in calling a spade a spade 

 

For full disclosure, I'm an enormous fan of just war theory, so I find any act, however noble the intended goal, that disregards the idea that there are justifiable means of warfare/conflict fairly toxic. In war and conflict, safe spaces exist for a reason - the medieval idea of "sanctuary" for example - it provides a means through which no conflict escalates to a point at which there is no means through which a return to civilized society and mutual existence becomes impossible. Moral grounds aside, an action that results in the deaths/intentional suffering of non-combatants creates what we do indeed see in DAII/DA:I - people like Sebastian, who may not be interested at all in continuing conflict otherwise, being drawn into actively continuing the conflict because of the hatred that has been brought about. There's a very real reason why relations between Japan and other Asian countries (China, South Korea) is still tense even two generations after World War II. 

 

We need certain actions to be condemned and regarded as unjustifiable under any circumstances because we are humans who coexist in a society where conflicts of interest are inevitable - rules are important if we are to have any realistic and meaningful concept of safety or security. Simply because we already exist (i.e. DA) in a society in which these lines are blurred does not give us an excuse to continue to blur them and make them increasingly impossible to find again. (Basically, you killing my mom does not make me killing your mom right under any situation - as the Chinese say, answering vengeance with vengeance, when does the cycle end?)

[NightSymphony]

So... about a month ago..maybe even two months ago...there was a discussion in here about The Last Unicorn and how some of us made our Lavellan's look like Lady Amalthea. Ever since, I've been getting this song stuck in my head on and off.  Thanks, guys. :-P

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=bAqdaaLVCEg

[Elessara]

Fenris/Solas is my BrOTP.

 

Unfortunately, Fenris would probably not like Solas.  Solas IS a mage after all.

[Mims]

My main problem with Anders was his choice of target and the fact that he tricked Hawke into helping him. But my opinions on him have softened a lot now that I am sitting on several years and another game. The deck was stacked against Anders, and I can respect that he did what he thought was right. There was probably nothing he could do to stop Justice from slipping into a spirit of Vengeance. Not in a place like Kirkwall. 

 

But I also agree that in terms of sheer destruction and lives, Solas is probably responsible for more. And he knows this. The real question is how many would have died/suffered under the increasingly violent rule of the other elven gods. I am guessing that Thedas itself would be a very, very, different place had the elven gods not been removed from the picture.

 

Anders did the same...just in not as clear cut a way. He forced the issue, which did ultimately cause the war to 'end'. [For now.] Both of them did what they thought they had to do at the time. Anders didn't have the benefit of being an intelligent, thousand+ year old 'god' to fall back on. So while I strongly object to his choice in targets...I do feel sorry for him, and understand what he tried to accomplish. 

[Rabbitonfire]

I know I risk being banned from the thread but... I confess I really, really love dragons but I'm not much interested in griffons

Still they all sound very good. I think I'll get me TME once my finances allow for self gifts. Thank you all for your advice!

Do you.. do you like the bad kind?

[Colonelkillabee]

Do you.. do you like the bad kind?

Archdemons?

 

I for one love Archdemons, old gods, all of it.

[Zarro-Morningstar]

I'm afraid I simply believe in calling a spade a spade 

 

For full disclosure, I'm an enormous fan of just war theory, so I find any act, however noble the intended goal, that disregards the idea that there are justifiable means of warfare/conflict fairly toxic. In war and conflict, safe spaces exist for a reason - the medieval idea of "sanctuary" for example - it provides a means through which no conflict escalates to a point at which there is no means through which a return to civilized society and mutual existence becomes impossible. Moral grounds aside, an action that results in the deaths/intentional suffering of non-combatants creates what we do indeed see in DAII/DA:I - people like Sebastian, who may not be interested at all in continuing conflict otherwise, being drawn into actively continuing the conflict because of the hatred that has been brought about. There's a very real reason why relations between Japan and other Asian countries (China, South Korea) is still tense even two generations after World War II. 

 

We need certain actions to be condemned and regarded as unjustifiable under any circumstances because we are humans who coexist in a society where conflicts of interest are inevitable - rules are important if we are to have any realistic and meaningful concept of safety or security. Simply because we already exist (i.e. DA) in a society in which these lines are blurred does not give us an excuse to continue to blur them and make them increasingly impossible to find again. (Basically, you killing my mom does not make me killing your mom right under any situation - as the Chinese say, answering vengeance with vengeance, when does the cycle end?)

Interesting viewpoint! Thanks for sharing it in such a descriptive manner. I personally feel that the world is much more grey rather than black/white. Let's say a poor individual in our world had a dying wife and could not afford to pay the outrageous prices a doctor was charging since he knew that the man really needed the medicine. Let's say that the man broke in and stole the medicine and gave it to his wife and she got better, but the doctor was stolen from; yet not hurt. Stealing is in indeed "wrong", but circumstances and situations push people to do "wrong" things.

 

I suppose the question here is, even as someone who really really loves Anders, I think he overstepped the boundaries of acceptable damage. I think Anders really does realize this afterwards, but unjustifiable means result in unjustifiable ends, no matter how noble your intentions were to begin with - assassinating an entire Chantry of non-combatants without their prior knowledge is an act of terrorism and is never acceptable under any circumstances. We can definitely argue that Meredith and the templars took the first step towards unjust warfare, but I'm of the personal opinion that meeting escalation with escalation is never justified.

 

/Edit if he had decided to blow up a barracks full of templars, then I think we'd have more room for argument

I do believe the Templars overstepped the boundaries of "disciplining" mages whenever they have the right to basically commit genocide and abuse any mage at any time with little consequences. Both sides have faults and I certainly do not support terroisim, however, Anders is much more grey character and should never just be called a "terrorist" That is one thing that makes me rather annoyied, plus whenever people try to insult me and call me a "terrorist-lover". I went into the Anders thread and it is far too late to revive it, but the crap they had to put up with should had never have happened.

 

Revolutionaries always get a lot of people killed.

Indeed.

 

The term "terrorism" has forever changed the way people see revolutionary acts.

Yup.

[Caddius]

I am the Colonel. If I didn't know at least a little about alcohol, and I couldn't handle it myself, it wouldn't be me, right?

 

And that last part, that's what makes it so hilarious, lol. And why even if it's not true, I wouldn't put it past them to say Alexander was poisoned or died from some other occurrence, if he really wasn't. It would be incredibly embarrassing otherwise for the legendary Alexander.

If there was a cover-up to hide the fact he died of alcohol poisoning, I might buy it. But, bowing to your superior knowledge of alcohol and its effects , isn't one of the main things about alcohol poisoning the vomiting?

Poison makes more sense to me than alcohol poisoning, as does the worsening of his spinal issues and a disease picked up in the marshes he was traveling in a short time before his falling ill.

His symptoms are interesting. Chills, sweats, exhaustion, high fever, excruciating abdominal pain, being in pain whenever anyone touched him. Except some of the accounts don't have him as having a fever.  All following a banquet with heavy amounts of wine. 

There's also the 'his body didn't deteriorate for six days after his death', which could be just building the legend up. God-Kings do not rot. But it could also be indicative of typhoid making him looking dead while he was still barely holding on. *shrug* I've also heard it claimed that some poisons do something similar.

All of this is mostly conjecture until we have his body in the forensic lab. If we ever recover the damn thing. 

It's moments like this I really empathize with the Dalish, desperately trying to find the right clues to the past.   A lot of history is, infuriatingly, the result of accounts written centuries after the fact, using sources we don't have written decades after the fact, which themselves were built off of the memoirs, real and faked, of the people involved.

I want to deploy a CSI team in a TARDIS and find out what killed everyone. 

Also, considering what a Tevinter-style crazy drunken ******* Alexander was in his last years, I really can't blame the Diadochi or his wives or Theo the Stable-boy for poisoning him. 

I'm boring myself at this point with all my ancient death speculation. 

You know what I want from World of Thedas v. II, though?

All of the wonderfully zany exploits and deaths of relatively unimportant Magisters and Archons. Things like Dorian's anecdote about the Archon assassinating someone at a ball and marching off smugly, or the crazier Roman stories, like Caligula having his soldiers hack at waves and take sea-shells as trophies of war for a laugh. (Probably just post-Caligula reign hookum made by a surprisingly creative Roman historian, but Tevinter's got enough lyrium addiction and blood magic for me to buy it for real.)

[Rhoxi]

Also, excellent points, Cecilia. I appreciate all of the well-reasoned discussion on this thread!

 

I guess, while I don't morally support Anders's actions, I find that I can't judge them. In the world of Thedas, there is no political or legal process he can turn to, and mages are denied basic liberties such as physical freedom, privacy, right to travel, marriage and paternity rights, and any kind of due process or right to trial. In such a situation, who wouldn't think of starting a revolution? You are right though, that there are better ways to go about it than destroying a building full of non-combatants, of course.

 

Also, erm . . . to keep this Solas-related! This line broke my heart the second play through, knowing who he is:

 

Spoiler

 

"You would think such understanding would stop me from making such terrible mistakes. You would be wrong."

 

Maybe I just enjoy tragic characters too much!