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[BoscoBread]

I agree with the comparison of Paarthurnax and Solas. Regardless of what he's done in the past, it's ancient history. I'm not in the business of hating people for things they've done long ago when it's clear they've changed. Hence, I don't hate Blackwall either despite it all.

This. Unless Solas turns out to be Ted Bundy 2.0, it's literally ancient history and I can't judge someone for a past that I wasn't even really a part of.  The world has moved on from his mistake...whatever that may be. Like I will always forgive Blackwall on a canon playthrough, I will likely do the same for Solas if given the chance. 

 

EDIT TOP SOLAS - Welcome to the hellspiral. 

[Cecilia]

This is the thing I love about this thread...people pointing out subtlties that I would otherwise miss. I did not realize that the dwarves where protecting a child.

I'd like to discuss this whole post a bit, but I am on my phone and posting is really hard.

 

I love Solas' stories~ They're some of my favorite writing in all of DA:I

 

The one about the dwarves protecting the child was so sad it had me tearing up - I think it speaks a lot to the idea that even in the face of overwhelming destruction and corruption like the darkspawn, what makes us us and not them is our ability to still cling to hope (a child) and die protecting something that matters. One of the reasons the darkspawn are so terrifying is because of how "human" (or dwarven/elven) they are - they're literally akin to "shadow people" and they're existence gives a sense of inevitable entropy to everything in Thedas - how the darkest aspect of humanity is bound to eventually overwhelm everything. It's fascinating to me how they're compared to "Original Sin" in the Andrastian theology because that is almost what they are - they are rapaciously hungry, they are unthinkingly cruel, they never create anything (it's emphasized again and again that darkspawn do not create - outside of some rude weapons/armor - they even need to steal human/elven/dwarven women for reproduction because they are unable to create life by themselves), and they are single minded in their worship of gods they distort with their very touch. For the dwarves to die standing against this darkness/sin and die protecting a child, the epitome of all that is worthwhile in "humanity" and the embodiment of our innocence and potential, is really sad and poignant D:

 

Yes. I'm sorry, I don't always get my point across well. The Matchmaker would suggest he values selflessness (although it could just be SEE SPIRITS ARE GOOD) and the Shadow... hm, I can't think of a good word for this trait, it's just not coming to me. Just that it would be easy to reduce her to evil and he shows sympathy for her and still acknowledges that the people who fled were prey.

 

Mm~ yes I thought the Shadow was more nuanced. Maybe it also had shades of how the motions of history are much more subtle than we know? Through her actions the Shadow drives the entire history of Thedas forwards without realizing it.

[Maria13]

Though I'm certain Solas would never hurt anyone intentionally that didn't deserve it, I am also convinced he feels there is a cetain level of acceptable collateral damage. He leaves Lavellan not so much to protect her, but to stay true to himself and his cause. At that scene, he was super close to giving it all up. When he says "I distracted you from your duty. It won't happen again," what he's saying is "You distracted me from my duty. It can't happen again."

From what we've seen of and can determine his actions to have been, he will allow innocents to be hurt if it's for the greater good. This is the prerogative of leaders and generals the world over, a difficult weighing made thousands of times in real life in the course of history. I would expect nothing less from Solas, who clearly was in a similar position of power at some point in life as well.
 

 

Perhaps there is a bit of truth in both those statements... I would argue that he was protecting himself and Lav against the possibility of her being used against him... 

 

To quote Francis Bacon:

 

He that hath wife and children hath given hostages to fortune; for they are impediments to great enterprises, either of virtue or mischief.
 

[Taelaa]

Also, excellent points, Cecilia. I appreciate all of the well-reasoned discussion on this thread!

 

I guess, while I don't morally support Anders's actions, I find that I can't judge them. In the world of Thedas, there is no political or legal process he can turn to, and mages are denied basic liberties such as physical freedom, privacy, right to travel, marriage and paternity rights, and any kind of due process or right to trial. In such a situation, who wouldn't think of starting a revolution? You are right though, that there are better ways to go about it than destroying a building full of non-combatants, of course.

 

Also, erm . . . to keep this Solas-related! This line broke my heart the second play through, knowing who he is:

 

Spoiler

 

"You would think such understanding would stop me from making such terrible mistakes. You would be wrong."

 

Maybe I just enjoy tragic characters too much!

 

And that bit when you walk into the courtyard in the alternate future Redcliffe, notice that the veil is gone, and remember the conversation you had with Solas about how awesome (and dangerous) it would be if the that happened. Seeing it was such a punch in the gut because it was really, really bad, not at all how we pictured it during that discussion. It really brings home the point about how a god can make mistakes when they use their power to "make things better" as they see it and it doesn't work out.

[Colonelkillabee]

This. Unless Solas turns out to be Ted Bundy 2.0, it's literally ancient history.  The world has moved on from his mistake...whatever that may be. Like I will always forgive Blackwall on a canon playthrough, I will likely do the same for Solas if given the chance. 

I loved that scene. "So what now?"

 

Me: "Dude, what do you think? You're forgiven, bro! The Herald of Andraste has spoken!"

 

I'd give him to the Grey Wardens, which seems fitting, but they're just not the organization they used to be. Seems wasteful and pointless to be honest, even if that fate would be fitting for his crimes. He's beaten himself up enough for it though. Just like that other warden who was willing to die for her role in Corypheus' plot. I'm not giving you an easy way out. Live with your sins and be better for them.

[AutumnOracle]

I know it's been said before...but still relevant to the current talking point. Sola's is playing a big game of chess with Theda's. And similarly to his game with Iron Bull he takes huge risks. They came have huge rewards...but the casualties are high and there might not be a payout.

So while I love him. His major flaw(IMO) is he isn't relating reality to what he is doing. This means that when the bad **** goes down it's easier for him to deal...cause he's also really sensitive. Evidenced by another convo I think with IB where he says something like every lost life was someone's family and all of their potential.

I think the reason he truly leaves at the end of the game is he starts seeing the whole team as more than just chess pieces. And he doesn't want to take risks with people he cares about and make them pay for his game. So I also can't wave away his sins...but I think he is redeemable.

[Lorien19]

Of course. It's just kind of a moot point to me since because of his actions, the best outcome was that explosion, you know what I mean? It's like, yea he didn't cause it, but it's a good thing it happened or the world would be doomed. Really, saying he caused the explosion is less damning than the alternative.

But like Maria13 said, his crime is recklessness, not malicious intent. That much I'm pretty sure is certain, but people that have screwed up royally have been executed and even charged with treason... In other words, that old phrase about good intentions comes to mind.

I understand what you meant and I agree,but my intention was to highlight how Solas is indirectly the harbringer of charge,although in a rather violent fashion.That's the main reason why keep pointing out how indirect his intervention was.

The inquisitor is indeed a herald as Flemeth said,and we now pretty much know that they were Fen'Harels herald from the very beginning.

[Armdin]

Totally random but I just entered the Crow Fens over at Ghilan'nain's Grove with Cass, Solas, and Sera. (Yes, I'm starting to take Sera around with me more now).

 

When we started walking around the watery parts of the Fen, Sera started complaining about it being cold and muddy. Afterwards she got scared and said that something brushed against her leg, in which Solas suddenly gave this very satisfied (and very sexy) chuckle.  

 

Ugh! Stupid sexy bald elf, making me feel things...

 

Hm... Guess I've gotta make some armor for Sera, 'cuz that girl is going to the Emerald Graves with me. >:]

 

Is the getting scared bit a part of a dialogue chain, do you know? Or was it  triggered from being somewhere in particular (like Solas/Cole banter about wolves by being near the wolf area)? I hope I make sense. ;_;

 

I should probably start taking Sera with me anyway, I really think I'll be getting the crisis dialogue with her soon. Mage-Ilaria and Sera reeeaallly don't get along. >_<

[Addai]

I have to say first off that I really love the Solas romance. But! After Blackwall's revelation there was a comment from Solas that made me very angry at him. He chastises Blackwall about pretending to be someone else. Perhaps, I don't quite understand but Solas is pretending too. I mean Solas isn't Solas. Blackwall killed for gold yes and that was horrible and deliberate. But would not it have been noble for Solas to admit to his mistake even if it was just to the Inquisitor? I know he doesn't always tell everything and I know he has bigger plans but he is cleverly lying. I don't know... I just kept thinking who is Solas to judge Blackwall considering how many people died because of his blunder. I still really like Solas and I love the romance but the elf has issues LOL.

Solas has thing he does, where he gets very agitated and angry about things that are too close to home for him. I think he lashes out at Blackwall precisely because he has guilt over his own deceptions. He apologizes to him later on, and encourages him to accept his guilt and move past it.

Solas: I wish to apologize for what I said to you, Blackwall.
Blackwall: You were right, though. I deserved it.
Solas: My people had a saying long ago - "The healer has the bloodiest hands." You cannot treat a wound without knowing how deep it goes. You cannot heal pain by hiding it. You must accept. Accept the blood to make things better. You have taken the first step. That is the hardest part.

There is also this juicy bit if Blackwall's in a romance with the Inquisitor:

Solas: So, you and the Inquisitor are together.
Blackwall: Yes. Is that a problem?
Solas: Far from it. People should seize any chance for a moment's respite in times such as these. I am glad you've allowed yourself some happiness.
Blackwall: I expected you to think that I should keep punishing myself.
Solas: I would be concerned if you forgot your past, but that seems unlikely. Beyond that, guilt is a distraction; one we can ill afford.
Blackwall: What of you, then? Have you found someone to share a moment's respite?
Solas: I find my peace elsewhere.

[Meer]

That's the thing. We have NO clue what he did and even really why he did it.  I tend to be of the mind that he piles an enormous amount of guilt and blame on himself for the incredibly complex issue of the fall of Arthlathan.  Much like Anders may in regards to the mage/templar war after he blew up the chantry despite the fact there were other things going on that indicate it was ineveitable.

 

I do agree with Ave.  I think the 'who's worse' comparisons do the writing an injustice.  Solas is supposed to find a sort of kinship with Blackwall.  They are both grizzled veterans. Both have seen and done a lot of things they regret. Both are trying their best to make up for their past mistakes and both are good people.  It's important, I think, that Solas is one of the few people that does seem to forgive Blackwall after the big reveal.  I doubt the writers will be that nuanced with it, but I like to think Solas would be more at ease with an Inqusitor that is able to forgive Blackwall as well.

Absolutely! I agree. We have no way to determine the extent of what Solas has done. Knowing him, he likely does assign even greater guilt and blame to himself than he deserves. The fall of a nation cannot be taken lightly, and it would be madness to assume it was the fault of one man. There is no one that important, anywhere, ever, though they might play a major role as catalyst.

And certainly. I think the two are 100% meant as foils for one another. It's something people will apply their own morality to no matter what, but the point that matters for both men is the regret. The attempt to do better and to make things better. They definitely are good men even if they weren't in the past, just as you say.
 

[Cecilia]

Slightly tangential, but I love the conversation between Cole and Blackwall where Cole tells Blackwall it's not about him, it's about the victims of his crime and all they would want is to be "not dead." It shows that Blackwall still has a lot of growing and learning to do - he's still digging for absolution and forgiveness without realizing that the whole story isn't about him and never will be, it isn't about his redemption, but rather about their death and suffering, which is as irreversible as his guilt.

[Colonelkillabee]

I understand what you meant and I agree,but my intention was to highlight how Solas is indirectly the harbringer of charge,although in a rather violent fashion.That's the main reason why keep pointing out how indirect his intervention was.

The inquisitor is indeed a herald as Flemeth said,and we now pretty much know that they were Fen'Harels herald from the very beginning.

Well, that's up for debate and depends on your point of view. I don't sign on with the Andrastian Maker idea completely, but your intervention was incredibly timely and worked out for the better of everyone. I love that despite everything, Bioware still leaves elements of faith in the plot. Really makes the story better.

 

Of course, I know what you meant by Fen'harel's herald and that you weren't discrediting the maker side. People have tried that in the past though, so I thought I'd say it anyway. I personally don't look at myself as his herald, heralds are generally chosen. Though in a way maybe he did, even if the choice wasn't first his. He helped you survive the mark after all, though really he didn't have much of a better option at hand. Lol, at hand.

 

lolololol

[Armdin]

Oh yes! Solas said that as I was passing by some burial urns with skulls scattered all around and I was like, "Really, Solas?". 

 

Also, I'm about to claim Fen'Harel's shrine right now and I've just unlocked the Measuring Veil Strength Operation (finally!).

 

I've done 3 playthroughs and I've never heard him say that, or got the approval bump for claiming Fen'Harel's shrine. D: Maybe I;m already maxed out on approval with him at that point, Solas is so easy to gain approval with. x)

[Colonelkillabee]

There is also this juicy bit if Blackwall's in a romance with the Inquisitor:
 

You sure that wasn't "I find my piece elsewhere?" Big dog's getting himself a slice from somewhere it seems, lol.

[Vorathrad]

And if you want to get technical, it's Solas' lie that does the most damage. Not Blackwall's. I get very irritated when people say what Blackwall did was way worse and Solas' lie doesn't count. People think the sun shines out of his shiny head and I just can't. even. 
 
Blackwall sucks. He killed a family. Children.
 
Solas got hundreds of people blown up. Maybe left lots of children without parents. Maybe killed lots of children too. Who even knows.
 
I love Solas or I wouldn't be here but the amount of hand-waving his actions is just...I don't know.

I fully agree. Blackwall led a selfish, greedy life and made a terrible mistake because of it. Afterwards, he thrust himself in a perpetual flight by impersonating warden Blackwall. I think there came a time when he wanted to stop and find a way to redeem himself, but he just couldn't without paying for his crime first. Then he meets the Inquisitor and finally finds a chance of doing something good for the world, but in order to do so he must continue with his Blackwall charade. I don't justify or condone his actions, but I see how a man with a desperate need to undo at least a bit of his wrongs might choose to keep on lying if that's what he needs to take the one opportunity he's given.

I think we are much more forgiving of Solas because we still didn't get his big reveal. We still don't know the amount of damage derived from his actions. We do know he gave the orb to Corypheus, thus enabling much of the death and suffering we see in DAI. My Lavellan for one would be horrified by that alone. And even without knowing what Solas did exactly, we do know he lied to Lavellan even if he loved her and dumped her just before the final confrontation with Corypheus. He may have thought it was the best for her, but he was selfish and lied nonetheless. Same as Blackwall.

Please don't say I hate Solas or anything. I love his character and the romance. But as Avejajed said, lies are lies. And both Blackwall and Solas had noble intentions behind their lies.

[Cecilia]

Absolutely! I agree. We have no way to determine the extent of what Solas has done. Knowing him, he likely does assign even greater guilt and blame to himself than he deserves. The fall of a nation cannot be taken lightly, and it would be madness to assume it was the fault of one man. There is no one that important, anywhere, ever, though they might play a major role as catalyst.

And certainly. I think the two are 100% meant as foils for one another. It's something people will apply their own morality to no matter what, but the point that matters for both men is the regret. The attempt to do better and to make things better. They definitely are good men even if they weren't in the past, just as you say.
 

 

 

I think Solas is further along in his journey than BW is though (well duh~ so much older and all that). I get the sense that Solas doesn't care about "balancing his books" with karma/the Maker/fate and simply does what he needs to do - part of the reason I'm not 100% okay with BW is that a lot of what he does is still about him, about making himself feel "better" or feel "vindicated" - he's not just motivated because what he does is right, it's also because he views it as a type of balancing act between the pile of goods he does and the pile of bads he's done when you simply can't balance the sheets like that. 

[scintilla]

I have to say first off that I really love the Solas romance. But! After Blackwall's revelation there was a comment from Solas that made me very angry at him. He chastises Blackwall about pretending to be someone else. Perhaps, I don't quite understand but Solas is pretending too. I mean Solas isn't Solas. Blackwall killed for gold yes and that was horrible and deliberate. But would not it have been noble for Solas to admit to his mistake even if it was just to the Inquisitor? I know he doesn't always tell everything and I know he has bigger plans but he is cleverly lying. I don't know... I just kept thinking who is Solas to judge Blackwall considering how many people died because of his blunder. I still really like Solas and I love the romance but the elf has issues LOL.

 

Solas can be pretty hypocritical at times, yes, it's one of his flaws. I'd agree with Addai that he reacts badly to things that hit too close to home.

 

So while I love him. His major flaw(IMO) is he isn't relating reality to what he is doing. This means that when the bad **** goes down it's easier for him to deal...cause he's also really sensitive. Evidenced by another convo I think with IB where he says something like every lost life was someone's family and all of their potential.

 

Solas (MJ, the thread starter) has a really good theory out there about Solas dissociating from the trauma of waking up to a world that's so very different. He's not seeing any of it as real. I'm not sure how much I believe it but it's an absolutely fascinating take and would explain why in the Cole banter a romanced Lavellan is called real.

[Maria13]

You sure that wasn't "I find my piece elsewhere?" Big dog's getting himself a slice from somewhere it seems, lol.

 

I must admit that that "I find my peace elsewhere..." popped a few naughty images into my mind....

[BoscoBread]

Solas can be pretty hypocritical at times, yes, it's one of his flaws. I'd agree with Addai that he reacts badly to things that hit too close to home.

 

 

Solas (MJ, the thread starter) has a really good theory out there about Solas dissociating from the trauma of waking up to a world that's so very different. He's not seeing any of it as real. I'm not sure how much I believe it but it's an absolutely fascinating take and would explain why in the Cole banter a romanced Lavellan is called real.

 I think it's more a coping mechanism than anything.  Like imagine you, going to sleep for 200 years and you wake up and the world is full on Fallout. You went to sleep and everything was functional and then it's totally alien.   It wouldn't even be real to you because you didn't even see why it happened and how it happened.  You didn't live through the horror.  You might as well have woken up in Oz, it would be so different.  That must be what it's like for him.  That's how I viewed it at least.  It's sort of funny and adorable really. He tries so hard to be emotionally distant and he fails pretty miserably.  Even without the romance...which makes it so much worse...he's in pretty deep with a friendmanced Inquisitor,Cassandra, Cole, Blackwall.  I mean basically everybody. 

[Meer]

I think Solas is further along in his journey than BW is though (well duh~ so much older and all that). I get the sense that Solas doesn't care about "balancing his books" with karma/the Maker/fate and simply does what he needs to do - part of the reason I'm not 100% okay with BW is that a lot of what he does is still about him, about making himself feel "better" or feel "vindicated" - he's not just motivated because what he does is right, it's also because he views it as a type of balancing act between the pile of goods he does and the pile of bads he's done when you simply can't balance the sheets like that. 

But this is exactly what I mean. While you may view Blackwall as selfish all the way, another player might see a chastened man toiling away at redemption the only way he knows how. There is a delicious quote from A Song of Ice and Fire that sums this all up beautifully: "A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward." Both Blackwall and Solas deserve punishment; both have received it one way or another. But they also deserve credit for what good they've done, even if it doesn't make their crimes disappear. And it shouldn't.
 

[Mims]

I imagine after having spent so much time dreaming and in the fade, it might be hard to come to terms with reality. In the fade, everything is malleable. Spirits forgive. Nothing is a closed door or a broken road.

 

But when you wake up, no amount of wishing changes the reality of the action.

 

Lavellan is part of that 'real' world. What she changes we don't quite know yet. It could be that she represents all the people he has wronged/will wrong. If he cares about her, then he can't easily dismiss the others. It could mean that she offers an alternative. He could be 'real' too, allow himself to live a life separate from the duty he's shackled himself to. 

[Lorien19]

Well, that's up for debate and depends on your point of view. I don't sign on with the Andrastian Maker idea completely, but your intervention was incredibly timely and worked out for the better of everyone. I love that despite everything, Bioware still leaves elements of faith in the plot. Really makes the story better.

 

Of course, I know what you meant by Fen'harel's herald and that you weren't discrediting the maker side. People have tried that in the past though, so I thought I'd say it anyway. I personally don't look at myself as his herald, heralds are generally chosen. Though in a way maybe he did, even if the choice wasn't first his. He helped you survive the mark after all, though really he didn't have much of a better option at hand. Lol, at hand.

 

lolololol

Nah,I've roleplayed my share of Andrastian quizies as well  (Plus,I don't usually choose sides outside of my character's personality).But yeah to me as a spectator/player Fen'Harel=Change and the Inquisitor no matter their backgrounds or beliefs brings exactly that.

Whether he actually chooses the Inquisitor it can be debated,since there's the possibility of them not getting along at all but for his own reasons he still chooses to help them (leading them to Skyhold etc).

[Armdin]

Gods damnit, people! Stop making regret letting Blackwall swing on my canon playthrough! Am I going to have to do a fourth playthrough, for a proper canon, where I don't let Blackwall die so I can feel less guilty? x)