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[Vlk3]

I believe that people tend to forgive Solas while condemning Blackwall, because of their motivations. As I understand, Blackwall was just greedy - he was looking for his personal gain when he sent his soldiers to kill those nobles.

We know that Solas wanted his orb unlocked - that's why he gave it to Corypheus (or left it somewhwre for him to find?). He didn't expect it to go so badly, it's quite clear, I think. But what really matters here is that I doubt he wanted to gain something for himself only - he's got a goal, maybe noble, maybe not so much, but he believes in his cause and cares for The People (whoever they are - maybe just all elves or ancient elves or the elven gods). He presumably wants to make the world a better place, fix his past mistakes or just bring the change that is so much needed. Of course, a lot of people would disagree with him and call him a 'madman'.

 

Still, despite making a mistake, causing a lot of deaths, nearly deastroying the world (as seen in alternate future), he created something great, an organisatons that seems to be the perfect solution for many problems the world of Thedas already suffered. Something good came out of it.

 

And whatever he is planning, all his lies and deceit are not just to protect himself from penance, vengeance or justice - it's all a means to an end - he wants to succeed, because he believes in his goals, he wants to do some good - even if at terrible cost. That's the difference. That's why it is so easy to forgive him...that's why he is such a compelling character - at least for me and my canon Lavellan...

 

Ultimately, causes do matter.  

 

 

Why are there 24 new posts while I write this... stop typing so furiously, people! I won't be able to catch up!

[Colonelkillabee]

Gretchen, I’m sorry I laughed at you that time you got diarrhea at Barnes & Noble. And I’m sorry for telling everyone about it. And I’m sorry for repeating it now.

ROFL And now I'm once again embarrassed that I get this friggin reference. Siiiigh

[Avejajed]

ROFL And now I'm once again embarrassed that I get this friggin reference. Siiiigh

Stop trying to make fetch happen!

I'm really opened a can of worms with the Liz thing, didnt I. Mouth, meet foot. It was meant to be a joke. I expect Liz would have seen it as such.

[laurelinvanyar]

ROFL And now I'm once again embarrassed that I get this friggin reference. Siiiigh

You go, Glen Coco!!

[Addai]

Stop trying to make fetch happen!

I'm really opened a can of worms with the Liz thing, didnt I. Mouth, meet foot. It was meant to be a joke. I expect Liz would have seen it as such.

Oh ok, lol. Apparently I can't tell when you're being sarcastic, either. We need a dry humor signal.

Your avatar is an astrarium, isn't it. Any particular one? I'm not ashamed to admit that I was terribly intimidated by them. Colonel talked me through my anxiety and now I'm an astrarium CHAMP.

[Cecilia]

I disagree. 

We can only assume what Solas's mistake in the past is, what he did, and what his plans are now.  He doesn't see the Dalish as his people.  Aside from helping close the Breach I don't recall learning anything that Solas is doing to fix things and move forward.  If anything I felt that Solas is holding on to the past too much.  He doesn't see the present as real, he wants what was lost.

 

As for Blackwall wanting to still be called Blackwall -- he said it would be a title rather than a name, something to strive for, the man he would rather be.  This man he admires and would rather be, I don't see how that's a bad thing.  The man he used to be made a choice for personal gain that had an entire family killed.  People can change and be something more than they used to be. 

 

I feel like the court has to stay out on Solas until we do get more information through a DLC, but holistically we do know that he didn't do what he did for himself and he still isn't doing what he does for himself, which ties into my issue with Blackwall. I keep harping on that dialogue with Cole, but I really think that conversation reveals so much about Blackwall as a person - he's still very immature and hasn't fully understood the fact that he is not the main character in everyone's story. Blackwall still fundamentally thinks everything - from the death of the entire family to you springing him from prison - is about him when, from an objectivist point of view, it isn't, and that's something Cole is trying to make him understand. The death of the family and children is not a character development plot point for Blackwall to go on his angst fest getting drunk in taverns and thinking about what a d*ck he is, Warden Blackwall's recruitment of him and death are not character development plot points for Blackwall to take on the mantle of a hero and go around looking for redemption and a new lease on life. None of these things are about him. 

 

I honestly don't hate Blackwall - his thought process is fallible and the trap he falls for is one humans overall have a tendency to fall for, but that doesn't make it right. I don't believe Blackwall has ever "redeemed" himself, because I don't believe that there is redemption to be sought - unless he can undo the past and bring the dead back to life, he can't ever make up for what he has already done (maybe I'm just taking issue with semantics here but my sentiment stands ). He can still be a good man - I would even venture so far as to say he is a good man, but he hasn't redeemed himself and never can because the very idea of "redemption" being something you can earn is pretty repulsive to me. (He's learned, he's learning, he's grown, changed, developed, but he is not redeemed)

[Elven_Glory]

Stop trying to make fetch happen!
I'm really opened a can of worms with the Liz thing, didnt I. Mouth, meet foot. It was meant to be a joke. I expect Liz would have seen it as such.

The blame is partially mine. Fret not. We don't need to discuss it further. I'm sure Liz knows we have good intentions. I would definitely miss her if she ever did decide to leave completely, though.

[Avejajed]

Oh ok, lol. Apparently I can't tell when you're being sarcastic, either. We need a dry humor signal.

Your avatar is an astrarium, isn't it. Any particular one? I'm not ashamed to admit that I was terribly intimidated by them. Colonel talked me through my anxiety and now I'm an astrarium CHAMP.

Sure, it's Fen'Harels. We think, anyway.

And maybe a code word or secret handshake. You and Siha and I can have a club. A super secret sarcasm club.

[BoscoBread]

Well, again, I have to defend him in that I think he confronted it every single day by a ) getting up in the morning and b ) not being an evil bastard or drunk. That's what most people would've done if they couldn't just forget or rationalize what they'd done.

I think I want to like Blackwall more than I actually do, because he's a blokey bloke and has chest hair (presumably) and is basically a dwarf. I do appreciate the character risks Bioware took with him. Still, I think it'd be a whole different game if he and IB were the only male romance options. I doubt I'd have played past the first runthrough. As it is, I keep trying to play other characters but missing Solavellan.

That too, lol. I was responding to Avejajed's comment that the thread has rose-colored glasses. We like him here (no surprise) and there's a spectrum on how hard people take his negatives, but I don't think we're a bunch of fawning fangirls. Much.

That's true in regards to Blackwall.  He did a lot to confront that part of himself by actually doing good things, but there's a point when you actually have to confront it and he did let a fair few amount of his men swing for his crimes.  However I was really moved by the jail scene and his desire to be better. He always lives for me.  I really do like Blackwall's character though it seems as much as you do so...conceptually.  So I like the risks in the writing and the overall story, but in execution...meh.  I do agree on the romance. I would NOT have known what to do with this game if Solas wasn't a romance.  I'm still baffled why it wasn't included from the beginning - even if it was human only-it still would have been pretty powerful. 

 

I think the thread treads a good line of trying to be irreverent, super-RP-serious, fan-girly.  Something for everybody.  I think Ave meant the fandom overall.  Most of it sits squarly in the angsty hellspiral and it tends to forget that he's complex and also that people didn't romance him. 

[Vorathrad]

I want that high-five gif for that!

 

 

Oh, and Liz shouldn't go anywhere. I don't get the whole Abelas thing but it would be sad if we didn't get to see the latest pinups from the Temple of Sacred Asses, whosever ass that is.

 

A high-five un-gif for both of you!!

[Siha]

Blackwall is one of my favourite companions tbh, he reminds me of a few of my mates.

Erm not that my friends murder children

 

Yeah, he is fine. Until you romance him. Oh, let me guess, you did romance him...

 

I'm really opened a can of worms with the Liz thing, didnt I. Mouth, meet foot. It was meant to be a joke. I expect Liz would have seen it as such.

 

The truth cannot be silenced!! Down with oppression!! Viva la revo.... no? Alright, not then.

 

Oh ok, lol. Apparently I can't tell when you're being sarcastic, either. We need a dry humor signal.

 

I would offer my services.

[_Lucinia]

I feel like the court has to stay out on Solas until we do get more information through a DLC, but holistically we do know that he didn't do what he did for himself and he still isn't doing what he does for himself, which ties into my issue with Blackwall. I keep harping on that dialogue with Cole, but I really think that conversation reveals so much about Blackwall as a person - he's still very immature and hasn't fully understood the fact that he is not the main character in everyone's story. Blackwall still fundamentally thinks everything - from the death of the entire family to you springing him from prison - is about him when, from an objectivist point of view, it isn't, and that's something Cole is trying to make him understand. The death of the family and children is not a character development plot point for Blackwall to go on his angst fest getting drunk in taverns and thinking about what a d*ck he is, Warden Blackwall's recruitment of him and death are not character development plot points for Blackwall to take on the mantle of a hero and go around looking for redemption and a new lease on life. None of these things are about him. 

 

I honestly don't hate Blackwall - his thought process is fallible and the trap he falls for is one humans overall have a tendency to fall for, but that doesn't make it right. I don't believe Blackwall has ever "redeemed" himself, because I don't believe that there is redemption to be sought - unless he can undo the past and bring the dead back to life, he can't ever make up for what he has already done (maybe I'm just taking issue with semantics here but my sentiment stands ). He can still be a good man - I would even venture so far as to say he is a good man, but he hasn't redeemed himself and never can because the very idea of "redemption" being something you can earn is pretty repulsive to me. (He's learned, he's learning, he's grown, changed, developed, but he is not redeemed)

Oh believe me I get that.  I just think sometimes we too easily romanticize everything Solas does and then judge anyone else a lot harsher.  And like I said, we don't have all of the information on Solas yet, anything we say is guessing and assumptions.  I try to form my opnions on the little bit of evidence we do have in game.  I don't hate Blackwall, but I don't give him a free pass either. 

[Siha]

And maybe a code word or secret handshake. You and Siha and I can have a club. A super secret sarcasm club.

 

So secret we will never hold meetings and you will never call me back, right? I know that kind of club, have been member of many like that.

 

A high-five un-gif for both of you!!

 

High five ACSII art ftw.

 

( ‘-’)人(ﾟ_ﾟ )

[Avejajed]

Oh believe me I get that. I just think sometimes we too easily romanticize everything Solas does and then judge anyone else a lot harsher. And like I said, we don't have all of the information on Solas yet, anything we say is guessing and assumptions. I try to form my opnions on the little bit of evidence we do have in game. I don't hate Blackwall, but I don't give him a free pass either.

Yes! You and others say perfect what I meant. I should hire people to speak for me instead of mucking it up by doing it myself.

I think we do romanticize Solas' actions...we judge him by a different jury.

[Vorathrad]

Are we sure that Solas goal is not for his own benefit? That there isn't a tinge of fulfilling his pride and his sense of having the right answer? Because I think it's a bit of both: helping the people and soothing his ego (I know, I'm a pain in the Sol-ass)

[Rabbitonfire]

I have to admit, I like my style, but I would like to refine it more. As long as I've actually been drawing, though, you would think I would be better at it, but I feel like I plateaued around age 16. I want to take some actual art classes at some point, but right now, with my Physical Therapy classes plus job and child, I feel like I really don't have the time. Maybe once I graduate (only 2 years left!) I can take some actual 'me time' classes.
I think Solas would approve. He likes it when people choose to educate themselves. And art.

you don't need classes! I'm self taught and I draw in cycles of 5months and look at me now.

[Avejajed]

So secret we will never hold meetings and you will never call me back, right? I know that kind of club, have been member of many like that.


High five ACSII art ftw.

( ‘-’)人(ﾟ_ﾟ )

No, no that's the procrastinators meeting.

[coldwetn0se]

DAMMIT!! I really hate this laptop sometimes. I.ATE.MY.POST.



*stuff said, likes handed out - since I am still out of likes - plus silly gifs*

Oh, and Solas!



(I think I may have lost it with that last image )

[Cecilia]

Oh believe me I get that.  I just think sometimes we too easily romanticize everything Solas does and then judge anyone else a lot harsher.  And like I said, we don't have all of the information on Solas yet, anything we say is guessing and assumptions.  I try to form my opnions on the little bit of evidence we do have in game.  I don't hate Blackwall, but I don't give him a free pass either. 

 

That's fair haha~ I didn't romance Solas so honestly my intent isn't so much to defend Solas as to throw extensive shade on Blackwall (with lots of affection for the bearded puppy of course) because I think throwing around the words "redeemed" and "made up for" wrt to his character arc is really diminishing the fact that the victims of his actions are dead and never coming back. 

 

(No smoke without fire etc. all those shady stories about Solas have to come from somewhere)

[Colonelkillabee]

Oh ok, lol. Apparently I can't tell when you're being sarcastic, either. We need a dry humor signal.

Your avatar is an astrarium, isn't it. Any particular one? I'm not ashamed to admit that I was terribly intimidated by them. Colonel talked me through my anxiety and now I'm an astrarium CHAMP.

Hahaha, I'm not the only one anymore

[Caddius]

I know exactly who was involved, but I'm not going to bring up names. What's in the past is in the past, and I'm pretty sure Liz is still posting here when she feels like it.

 

And if not, that's her choice. She knows we love her here regardless of the few people who gave her a hard time, so if she feels more comfortable posting in another thread, then that's fine. No need for it to go any further than that. Liz always has a place here no matter what, as does everyone else.

tl;dr: We don't need to bring up names because they're already on our list.   

[Avejajed]

tl;dr: We don't need to bring up names because they're already on our list.

The boys have a list. How adorable.

[_Lucinia]

Are we sure that Solas goal is not for his own benefit? That there isn't a tinge of fulfilling his pride and his sense of having the right answer? Because I think it's a bit of both: helping the people and soothing his ego (I know, I'm a pain in the Sol-ass)

Exactly.  Look at the name he took for himself; Solas, it means pride.  Please no one think that I am bashing Solas, or hate him.  I love this character.  I care about his fate.  Even though it broke my heart, his romance is my favorite DA romance. 

All assumptions, but let's look at what we think he did and how far reaching the consequences are.  According to Dalish lore he locked up the Creators.  Putting it together from things he himself has said, and what we saw in game; whatever he did is the reason the Dalish are wandering nomads living a life that they think honors their Gods, putting slave markings on their faces.  All the rest live in alienages, are treated like less than actual people.  There's slaves, some live in servitude.  It's a terrible life.  (yes I know this is all an assumption when it comes to how much is Solas's fault)  How does anyone redeem themselves from that?  Really!

I am by no means downplaying what Blackwall did.  His actions had a family murdered.  He was a coward.  He ran and hid.  How is his redemption so less believable than Solas?  It's not even on the same scale, I get that, and unfair to compare the two situations as anything even close to equal.  One family vs altering the entire world?  That's all I am saying.  They're both flawed characters, and I am not trying to sway anyone or say that Blackwall deserves more than he has.  Just adding some perspective is all.  No I don't like Blackwall as a character even close to how much I like Cole and Cass, let alone Solas.  This is my attempt to be a bit objective.  In the end if you don't like Blackwall it doesn't even matter anyways.

Sorry I'll stop saying anything more on this stuff.  Well I'll try to anyways! 

[Siha]

The boys have a list. How adorable.

I think it's called black book.

[Caddius]

I love dogs to death, and I am especially sensitive to dog deaths because of my last dog, but honestly all he did was exactly what the majority of people would have done. Ignore the group of sickos killing a defenseless animal, so they don't do the same to you.

 

Especially in this setting where people aren't as in love with animals as we are in our society. So it didn't bother me much personally. It was realistic.

Same here, except that it most definitely did bother me.

Not in the 'Oh Rainier, you terrible child you,' but in the 'This is a trip down dark Wambaugh/Heller lane.' It's strange how the dog story unsettled me a lot more than demons possessing people or the Breach incinerating thousands. It's the realization that that's a situation that can and has happen. Like how the death camp in ME3 was chilling, because as you go through, you start to recognize all of the warning signs of a death camp, the psychology behind the people not freaking out, the efficiency of control. And it makes me feel a little sick to my stomach that we've had enough experience that we can recognize death camps just through hints in dialogue, that the Holocaust wasn't a freak of history.

Rainier was a child who didn't have it in his power, and he turned away from it. And even though you can't exactly blame a child for trying to ignore the horror going on outside his door that scares and saddens him, Rainier does. The whole scene encapsulates his self-loathing, his helplessness at dealing with his guilt and horror, and just how disgusted with himself he is for all of his actions. His greatest fear in the Fade is 'himself'.

And with all of this hatred, Blackwall keeps throwing himself into danger to help people, teaching farmers to fight off bandits while also trying to convince the bandits to stand down. (Was it me, or was there a hint in a note at his recruitment to the bandits having been old soldiers of his, that turned to banditry after the incident? Or am I hallucinating on coffee fumes again?  )

I had a lot of incidents like Blackwall's as a child that I've always blamed myself for. None quite on his level, but it was enough for the entire scene to be extremely uncomfortable for me. I am, by nature, a very guilty person. So I'm basically going through what Solas did with Blackwall. Initial anger and disgust at the reveal, giving way to grudging acknowledgement of the similarities.